Let's Talk About Witch Time

[Greda]

Bat Within should be before Witch Time. If they make the startup in the range of 1-4 frames it could be a nice combo breaker like Ryu Focus attack.

Actually, you're not far off.

In fact, THIS seems to start up in the first few frames.

Spoiler: Bat Within

 

[Teshie U]

Thats good, means she should be able to escape soft combo strings that only work because airdodges and aerials tend to start on frame 3-4 for most characters.

It might also help vs some multihit strings that even Ryu can't escape because it lets you wiggle away a bit. But were we even shown if the animation is invincible?

 

[MzNetta]

Assuming it behaves in the same way as the original Bayonetta games, (and as of now there is no evidence to the contrary) Witch Time will activate if you use the Down Special to successfully DODGE and an incoming attack. Bat Within will trigger if you use the Down Special at the moment when you (would) TAKE DAMAGE from an incoming attack. This means that if you have a hard read, or use the Down Special early enough, you will dodge that attack and trigger Witch Time. If you are too late in your input, and still get hit (or deliberately delay your input until the last possible moment) you will still take (lessened) damage and trigger Bat Within.

 

[BlackCephie]

Yea this move is gonna be interesting to test out. The more we discuss it the more it seems the down b is meant to be used often, but with a balance between timing BW vs WT. I feel like they are going to make Bayo extremely light and easy to knock off the stage, thereby rewarding players for even being able to hit her at ALL. As the Bayo player your job is to play her as close to her original games as possible i.e. dont ever get hit and constantly convert into combos.

 

[Lakuto]

Yea this move is gonna be interesting to test out. The more we discuss it the more it seems the down b is meant to be used often, but with a balance between timing BW vs WT. I feel like they are going to make Bayo extremely light and easy to knock off the stage, thereby rewarding players for even being able to hit her at ALL. As the Bayo player your job is to play her as close to her original games as possible i.e. dont ever get hit and constantly convert into combos.

If she is lighter than Mewtwo, I won't lie, I would be kinda sad...

 

[Dilan Omer]

Broken and very easy way to start up a combo or get a kill.

 

[BlackCephie]

If she is lighter than Mewtwo, I won't lie, I would be kinda sad...

I dont think she would, maybe as light as zss. But i think it would depend on how reliable and safe her counter and other moves are.

 

[meleebrawler]

Broken and very easy way to start up a combo or get a kill.

Because, you know, grabs aren't a thing...

 

[David Viran]

Because, you know, grabs aren't a thing...

I can see this move being very good when at kill percents. All you have to do is read 1 move. Anything even like a sheik fair and they would be dead.

 

[meleebrawler]

I can see this move being very good when at kill percents. All you have to do is read 1 move. Anything even like a sheik fair and they would be dead.

Oh, I don't doubt that, it's just not the answer for everything as some imply.

 

[BlackCephie]

Oh, I don't doubt that, it's just not the answer for everything as some imply.

This. Now on the flipside, i think the psychological threat of WT being in play is going have many of her opponents fishing for grabs which is obviously something to look out for and punish as well. From the breakdown video we can see several aerials autocancel as well, namely dair and bair. Of course this is subject to change, but I can envision Bayo players using short hop bullet arts (into bullet climax on landing for extra pressure & stifling approaches) to stay mobile while also harrassing in order to force the opponent to commit to a grab or some other way to change the tide. Not only would she be able to punish in any way any other characters might, but having WT as an option could put opponents in a situation where they feel grab in their BEST option.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I see a lot of people talking about the mechanics of what was shown, and about the time frame. What I don't see is anyone talking about possibilities and balancing. What if using it on projectiles only results in Bat Within? Who's to say that a missed Witch Time won't result in a larger-than-normal amount of ending lag as punishment for failing to predict the opponent? We already saw that comboing like crazy in the air results in longer landing lag, so the possibilities of extra lag elsewhere are still there. Anything shown in the trailer is subject to change as well.

 

[Crudele]

Yeah, my biggest concern with witch time is what the endlag might look like. I would imagine since the reward is so good, there might be a lot of risk involved. If not, prepare to say hi to possibly one of the best disadvantage states in the game.

If bat within activates as early as it looks like it does (see: falcon punch gif), combos that aren't frame perfect will be easily broken out of. Witch twist also looks great as an OOS option that doubles as a combo starter.

 

[Snards?]

To be honest, I can't see witch time having too much end lag. The way that Sakurai was talking about the move in the trailer made it seem like witch time was going to be an integral part of her moveset. Having that be so easily punished, especially when nintendo is still trying to balance her for casual play, seems like a bad idea. I think that witch time will be one of her only ways to counter a really aggressive opponent, considering that a lot of her moves have slow start up. Having witch time as an option can just dissuade people from just throwing out moves. If a sheik gets too predictable with fair pressure she is going to eat a pile of damage. To be honest, she comes out in two months or less, we will just figure it out within hours of release.

 

[BlackCephie]

To be honest, I can't see witch time having too much end lag. The way that Sakurai was talking about the move in the trailer made it seem like witch time was going to be an integral part of her moveset. Having that be so easily punished, especially when nintendo is still trying to balance her for casual play, seems like a bad idea. I think that witch time will be one of her only ways to counter a really aggressive opponent, considering that a lot of her moves have slow start up. Having witch time as an option can just dissuade people from just throwing out moves. If a sheik gets too predictable with fair pressure she is going to eat a pile of damage. To be honest, she comes out in two months or less, we will just figure it out within hours of release.

This is my line of thinking. If Sakurai really did make her as true to her source games as he says then it absolutely WOULD be her most important move. That said, It should be the least punishable move she has. This is why I think her main disadvantage will be her weight. By making her really light, the opponent is rewarded significantly for every move landed on her, which should be very difficult to accomplish.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Then it's likely that we might get maybe 3 slowdowns before it starts to fail into Bat Within, since he also said that it becomes less useful the more you use it. While I understand it's integral for her play, I have reason to believe he won't just allow it to be straight up abusable. Even papa Sakurai isn't that ignorant. There has to be some kind of risk to it for those who just plain spam it (and fail to read an attack).

 

[BlackCephie]

Then it's likely that we might get maybe 3 slowdowns before it starts to fail into Bat Within, since he also said that it becomes less useful the more you use it. While I understand it's integral for her play, I have reason to believe he won't just allow it to be straight up abusable. Even papa Sakurai isn't that ignorant. There has to be some kind of risk to it for those who just plain spam it (and fail to read an attack).

I agree. Although im not sure if itll ever decay so much that all you get is bw. Itll more than like just give you little to no significant slow mo effect. Bayo players will need to gett good at timing for both effects in order to keep her evasion up but not necessarily have to decay wt. Of course this means you are still taking damage and if she is lightweight you wont be able to abuse bw either. Seems balanced either way. Cant wait to test all these theories.

 

[meleebrawler]

Then it's likely that we might get maybe 3 slowdowns before it starts to fail into Bat Within, since he also said that it becomes less useful the more you use it. While I understand it's integral for her play, I have reason to believe he won't just allow it to be straight up abusable. Even papa Sakurai isn't that ignorant. There has to be some kind of risk to it for those who just plain spam it (and fail to read an attack).

I thought it just gives you less slowdown time the more you use it in quick succession?

 

[David Viran]

I agree. Although im not sure if itll ever decay so much that all you get is bw. Itll more than like just give you little to no significant slow mo effect. Bayo players will need to gett good at timing for both effects in order to keep her evasion up but not necessarily have to decay wt. Of course this means you are still taking damage and if she is lightweight you wont be able to abuse bw either. Seems balanced either way. Cant wait to test all these theories.

I disagree with bw being affected if she's a lightweight (which is likely). It's just the nature of the move. You take less damage for screwing up the timing or because you can't be comboed any further.

 

[BlackCephie]

I disagree with bw being affected if she's a lightweight (which is likely). It's just the nature of the move. You take less damage for screwing up the timing or because you can't be comboed any further.

No no im not saying that bw would be affected by her weight. Im saying that it would make sense if her main disadvantage was her weight because you would still only be able to use bw but so many times before being in the danger zone since you still take SOME damage when using it.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I thought it just gives you less slowdown time the more you use it in quick succession?

We'll see when she comes out. What I got from the video was, if used too often, the slowdown diminishes. So what happens when you've diminished the effectiveness to zero? It's similar in a sense to Shulk's counter, since it weakens the more you use it.

 

[David Viran]

No no im not saying that bw would be affected by her weight. Im saying that it would make sense if her main disadvantage was her weight because you would still only be able to use bw but so many times before being in the danger zone since you still take SOME damage when using it.

It could be but, for example, zss is known for being a very high risk high reward character and eats super hard punishes if she screws up. She's not particularly heavy either being the 11th lightest in the game but her weight still isn't her main weakness. That would be her super punishable grab and lack of rising aerials. A lot of big problems are usually from lacking something in neutral. Unless you're M2. Weight usually just adds insult to injury.

 

[blackghost]

Theren are a few things I wanted to bring up because I haven't seen them mentioned yet.
1. Out of WT bayonetta gets easy footstool shenanigans that will be high end stuff for damage with her. If she has ano initiate WT could be easy way to set it up.
2. In the original games bayonetta cannot roll more than three times in a row or she goes into a recovery animation. That same recovery animation is in her trailer after rolling twice
(Happens when dark pit shoes up and bayonetta rolls back twice on the left part of the screen) it could also be the recovery of her down b.
3. We always see bat within trigger from early uses in its window. Never late. On the games bat within triggers after getting hit. That clearly isn't the same here.
4. If she's light that's gonna hurt especially since her recovery is really bad.

 

[Greda]

Theren are a few things I wanted to bring up because I haven't seen them mentioned yet.

2. In the original games bayonetta cannot roll more than three times in a row or she goes into a recovery animation. That same recovery animation is in her trailer after rolling twice
(Happens when dark pit shoes up and bayonetta rolls back twice on the left part of the screen) it could also be the recovery of her down b.

In the original games, it's five times. The fifth dodge is longer and leaves her vulnerable at the end (unless you have Bat Within).

This wasn't displayed with Dark Pit. She simply used her down special, short hopped, and then used fast fall to get to her crouch.

3. We always see bat within trigger from early uses in its window. Never late. On the games bat within triggers after getting hit. That clearly isn't the same here.

I've already covered this, Bat Within activates on both early uses, and late.

4. If she's light that's gonna hurt especially since her recovery is really bad.

Her recovery won't be bad if you know what you're doing. She can add in After Burner Kick after and before Witch Twist to get her back up, this includes her second jump and second Witch Twist.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Since witch time moves. Is it possible to be reverse it in the air to swap sides? That would be a pretty nasty way to net kills.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not to mention the wall jump she'll most likely have...

 

[Greda]

Not to mention the wall jump she'll most likely have...

Oh, you mean this?

Spoiler: Wall

This isn't her regular standing animation, and she seems to be under Pyrosphere.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh, you mean this?

Spoiler: Wall

This isn't her regular standing animation, and she seems to be under Pyrosphere.

Well, more that she wall jumps in her own game but sure.

Didn't think they'd go so far as to give her a wall cling, though.

 

[BlackCephie]

I wonder if you will be able to control where to teleport too after bw triggers.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

After some video analyzing, I was thinking this might be the cooldown of Witch Time on whiff: https://youtu.be/Qj6lCPAuB1I?t=2m6s
If you notice, she does an animation similar to her games when if you dodge too much (3 times consecutively in her games if I'm not mistaken) you are punished with lag; this animation is basically when after she dodges she immediately jumps back into a crouching pose for a moment. It looks like for Smash, if you miss Witch Time even once you are automatically punished with this animation.

The alternative to what's happening some or most people would assume is that she simply back-rolled to jump backwards fast-fall into crouch, but I believe this to be the cooldown animation of a missed Witch Time, triggered too early. She looks like she lands too fast (every character has a landing lag animation especially after a jump) for her to act that quickly out of a fast-fall upon landing. Taking a closer look, she's already in her face down position just before she lands.

Looks like Witch Time won't be spammable without getting punished. However, I do like to point out that the crouch animation she ends up with afterwards will allow her to only get hit with a few certain moves (Palutena's upsmash or Mario's dash attack for example), so she may not get punished as hard depending on the character.

Thoughts?

I wonder if you will be able to control where to teleport too after bw triggers.

I believe you can. https://youtu.be/Qj6lCPAuB1I?t=5m48s
Pay attention to where she ends up after each Bat Within. You see her end up in place, behind, or away.

 

[Greda]

After some video analyzing, I was thinking this might be the cooldown of Witch Time on whiff: https://youtu.be/Qj6lCPAuB1I?t=2m6s
If you notice, she does an animation similar to her games when if you dodge too much (3 times consecutively in her games if I'm not mistaken) you are punished with lag; this animation is basically when after she dodges she immediately jumps back into a crouching pose for a moment. It looks like for Smash, if you miss Witch Time even once you are automatically punished with this animation.

The alternative to what's happening some or most people would assume is that she simply back-rolled to jump backwards fast-fall into crouch, but I believe this to be the cooldown animation of a missed Witch Time, triggered too early. She looks like she lands too fast (every character has a landing lag animation especially after a jump) for her to act that quickly out of a fast-fall upon landing. Taking a closer look, she's already in her face down position just before she lands.

Looks like Witch Time won't be spammable without getting punished. However, I do like to point out that the crouch animation she ends up with afterwards will allow her to only get hit with a few certain moves (Palutena's upsmash or Mario's dash attack for example), so she may not get punished as hard depending on the character.

Thoughts?



I believe you can. https://youtu.be/Qj6lCPAuB1I?t=5m48s
Pay attention to where she ends up after each Bat Within. You see her end up in place, behind, or away.

I don't think that animation is the ending of her counter. I've looked over this segment of the video a lot and concluded that she is just short hopping and fast falling. I'll attempt to prove this, but just as a disclaimer, I'm not at my regular computer so a lot of the images I'm going to show will be ripped off from YouTube, from mobile, and be somewhat low quality.

When Bayonetta finished using her counter and jumped, she was fast falling down to her crouch. Fast falling in SSB4 is indicated by a short but noticeable sparkle the moment you use this technique. Bayonetta had this same sparkle behind her before landing.

Spoiler: Fast Falling

See the top right? Ignore the "i", please.

A regular character fast falling would look like this. See the middle. (Credits to the YouTuber "NinBuzz" for this picture)

After this, for a few frames she lands as she does normally (without landing lag), this leads me to believe this is not part of the animation as she would crouch at this area.

Spoiler: Landing

And finally, she crouches. It's a bit hard to see, but her regular crouch and the one she does in this segment of the video are the same. Look at her left arm, specifically. It's in the same position as her regular crouch.

Spoiler: Crouch

And a closer view of her crouch.

So, I don't think this is the full animation of the counter. It's just extra inputs.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

I don't think that animation is the ending of her counter. I've looked over this segment of the video a lot and concluded that she is just short hopping and fast falling. I'll attempt to prove this, but just as a disclaimer, I'm not at my regular computer so a lot of the images I'm going to show will be ripped off from YouTube, from mobile, and be somewhat low quality.

When Bayonetta finished using her counter and jumped, she was fast falling down to her crouch. Fast falling in SSB4 is indicated by a short but noticeable sparkle the moment you use this technique. Bayonetta had this same sparkle behind her before landing.

Spoiler: Fast Falling

See the top right? Ignore the "i", please.

A regular character fast falling would look like this. See the middle. (Credits to the YouTuber "NinBuzz" for this picture)

After this, for a few frames she lands as she does normally (without landing lag), this leads me to believe this is not part of the animation as she would crouch at this area.

Spoiler: Landing

And finally, she crouches. It's a bit hard to see, but her regular crouch and the one she does in this segment of the video are the same. Look at her left arm, specifically. It's in the same position as her regular crouch.

Spoiler: Crouch

And a closer view of her crouch.

So, I don't think this is the full animation of the counter. It's just extra inputs.

Interesting. I didn't know about the fast-falling visual cue, and I've played this game since release! I also didn't catch the landing animation; it happens so fast. So it seems Witch Time will hardly have any cooldown.

 

[BlackCephie]

Anyone else wondering about how knockback resolves out of wt if you hit the opponent with a combo that starts off with a smash attack?

In the reveal video she catches fox with wt, then up smashes him, which launches, then Bayo combos fox up to the upper right of the stage where he dies after a forward air string. It doesnt look like her aerials have much knockback, so im wondering if the knockack from the initial up smash resolves after wt effect wears off, resulting in the ko, OR if knockback from all the moves landed during wt is accumulated and resolved all at once, converting into big knockback, after the effect ends.

 

[Greda]

Anyone else wondering about how knockback resolves out of wt if you hit the opponent with a combo that starts off with a smash attack?

In the reveal video she catches fox with wt, then up smashes him, which launches, then Bayo combos fox up to the upper right of the stage where he dies after a forward air string. It doesnt look like her aerials have much knockback, so im wondering if the knockack from the initial up smash resolves after wt effect wears off, resulting in the ko, OR if knockback from all the moves landed during wt is accumulated and resolved all at once, converting into big knockback, after the effect ends.

I would say that the knockback out of any situation while your opponent gets out of Witch Time is determined by the last attack you hit them with. In the Fox example, she started with Fsmash, and ended with After Burner Kick downwards. If they combined, Fox would be dead. If only the Smash Attacks knockback counted, Fox would still be dead, but he didn't die. The direction he went after Witch Time ended was caused by the After Burner Kick Fox was hit with. He propped upwards, and the Fsmash which would have killed him... didn't.

I feel like I'm missing something here, but I'll edit later if that's the case.

 

[meleebrawler]

I would say that the knockback out of any situation while your opponent gets out of Witch Time is determined by the last attack you hit them with. In the Fox example, she started with Fsmash, and ended with After Burner Kick downwards. If they combined, Fox would be dead. If only the Smash Attacks knockback counted, Fox would still be dead, but he didn't die. The direction he went after Witch Time ended was caused by the After Burner Kick Fox was hit with. He propped upwards, and the Fsmash which would have killed him... didn't.

I feel like I'm missing something here, but I'll edit later if that's the case.

Witch Time doesn't change anything about knockback rules, just makes the effects take longer, like all slowdown effects.

Successive hits don't accumulate knockback, otherwise people would die comically fast in doubles. The only thing that causes more knockback is percent.

 

[Greda]

Witch Time doesn't change anything about knockback rules, just makes the effects take longer, like all slowdown effects.

Successive hits don't accumulate knockback, otherwise people would die comically fast in doubles. The only thing that causes more knockback is percent.

So I was right, then.

The main point I was trying to make was that the attacks didn't accumulate knockback, and that the downwards After Burner Kick altered it, as it normally would.

For reference:

Spoiler

 

[meleebrawler]

So I was right, then.

The main point I was trying to make was that the attacks didn't accumulate knockback, and that the downwards After Burner Kick altered it, as it normally would.

For reference:

Spoiler

Did you notice how Bayonetta flickered out just before the smash? Perhaps that's the effect when you input a move after a successful Witch Time.

She's basically spoiled for choice when she lands this at high percents. She COULD just charge a wicked weave and launch them... but that's not really stylish is it? Modus operandi will likely be to combo them a bit (with good use of bullet arts), and THEN smashing them with a weave, like in her own game.

 

[Greda]

Did you notice how Bayonetta flickered out just before the smash? Perhaps that's the effect when you input a move after a successful Witch Time.

She's basically spoiled for choice when she lands this at high percents. She COULD just charge a wicked weave and launch them... but that's not really stylish is it? Modus operandi will likely be to combo them a bit (with good use of bullet arts), and THEN smashing them with a weave, like in her own game.

It seems you're right, timing Witch Time gives you less lag afterwards, and you can cancel in the animation. For Bat Within, it takes a little longer.

This leads to a variety of choices if you time this counter correctly. As said before, this means that all it takes is one good read and your opponent can die in mid to high %. I'm certain this will be a useful move in Bayonetta's arsenal.

As for the rest of what Bayonetta did, sure it's more stylish, but certainly not the best option. Fox looks like he would have died out of that Fsmash, charged or not. She decided to go for it and ended with a Fair, which didn't seem to kill him, ruining the entire thing.

I don't think you'll be able to use another Smash Attack after that Fsmash at that %, Fox seemed too high up after Bayonetta was able to move again.

But, yeah, just for fun, you could go all out and just style on them. Maybe throw in a few taunts in the middle, too. That would be insanely fun to watch and play.

 

[BlackCephie]

I dunno. It seems like all that knockback is put on a kind of stack, like in magic the gathering. It would make sense. Lets say someone is at 85% and you hit them with an upsmash. Maybe that doesnt kill. But what if you catch them in wt first, start with the upsmash then combo them to 100%, then wt ends at which point the knockback from the upsmash resolves, resulting in a kill. Seems like a more practical approach. In the video, the last hit before he dies is a bayo fair string, not ab kick, which has like no knockback. Thats the only reason it seems like the strongest hit's knockback is stored. Or not stored but still goes into full effect after wt ends.

In other words it doesnt look like a successive hit diminishes or changes the AMOUNT of knockback of the prior move, but the opponents direction can change.

 

[meleebrawler]

I dunno. It seems like all that knockback is put on a kind of stack, like is magic the gathering. It would make sense. Lets say someone is at 85% and you hit them with an upsmash. Maybe that doesnt kill. But what if you catch them in wt first, start with the upsmash then combo them to 100%, then wt ends at which point the knockback from the upsmash resolves, resulting in a kill. Seems like a more practical approach. In the video, the last hit before he dies is a bayo fair string, not ab kick, which has like no knockback. Thats the only reason it seems like the strongest hit's knockback is stored.

You can't "stack" knockback. A trip to the training room with a spawned timer should debunk this.

We don't actually see Fox die in the clip. but if he does it's because a) the damage he took increased fair's knockback, and b) they were really close to the blastzone.

If things worked like you say Fox would've flown off instantly when Witch Time expired.