Let's Talk About Witch Time

[TurboLink]

I don't know, if they didn't nerf Cloud or Ryu despite their really good tools and people whining about them being broken I doubt they're going to nerf Bayonetta.

I've seen more people whine about Cloud than I have Ryu.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I've seen more people whine about Cloud than I have Ryu.

Cloud is worth whining about.

Ryu players deserve mad respect.

 

[Megamang]

Everyone deserves the same respect since everyone should be simply trying their hardest in the game. Sm4sh is more about outsmarting the other player than it is being technically superior after all, its one of the things I like about it.

Ryu is just as BS as Cloud in my opinion, the highest level characters in this game all have something silly about them. Fighting Ryu is kinda meh in my opinion since you don't really fight him, since if you play his game you just get wrecked. You just keep him out or keep denying him. Witch Timing Focus Attack is one of the best feelings of reversal of fates ever.

I will say this about Cloud, nintendo did a super job of fixing doubles being over centralized when they fixed teammate reflection/absorption/pocketing, then managed to bring it back even worse with Cloud. ugh.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Ryu is just as BS as Cloud in my opinion, the highest level characters in this game all have something silly about them.

I said ryu players deserve mad respect because the character requires a lot of technical skill and proper application of the right moves to really shine.

Cloud is easy as piss to play, but still really powerful. He's so dumb and simple its almost a joke in and of itself. My opinion has always been that everyone is a cloud main whether they know it or not.

Here's how to play cloud:

-charge limit whenever possible
-shorthop nair, ALOT
-upair, upair, upair, upair....
-fsmash to victory
-when in doubt, just hold jab

 

[Megamang]

And his predictability is his downfall at a higher level. Its not like we see top 8s flooded with Clouds, like we do in doubles. I know he seems simple, but that is a curse more than a blessing. To stay on topic here, it makes him really Witch Timeable, since when he SHs at you he probably isn't going to use his pretty meh Tomohawk. And if he does... tiny damage and some limit for him, for the risk of dying at 80% if he aerials.

 

[Ghidorah14]

And his predictability is his downfall at a higher level. Its not like we see top 8s flooded with Clouds, like we do in doubles. I know he seems simple, but that is a curse more than a blessing. To stay on topic here, it makes him really Witch Timeable, since when he SHs at you he probably isn't going to use his pretty meh Tomohawk. And if he does... tiny damage and some limit for him, for the risk of dying at 80% if he aerials.

Thats like saying ryu in street fighter 4 is predictable and "cursed with simplicity." Ryu is the most basic and straightforward character in the SF games, and yet hes always one of the best characters in the game(s).

Ryu excels in SF because he's pure fundamentals. He has very good buttons and doesnt rely on gimmicks.

Cloud works the same way in smash; if you have good fundamentals, you can do well with cloud.

The difference is that with cloud, you dont need to work nearly as hard to get results.

 

[Giova]

We havent talk about this, it was covered in the lastest my smash corner video.

The witch time seconds are represented within the clock itself

So you can know when is gonna end

 

[Megamang]

Thats like saying ryu in street fighter 4 is predictable and "cursed with simplicity." Ryu is the most basic and straightforward character in the SF games, and yet hes always one of the best characters in the game(s).

Ryu excels in SF because he's pure fundamentals. He has very good buttons and doesnt rely on gimmicks.

Cloud works the same way in smash; if you have good fundamentals, you can do well with cloud.

The difference is that with cloud, you dont need to work nearly as hard to get results.

But Cloud doesn't really excel the same way. In a game with reactable powershielding, Cloud suffers from his predictability.

I played some Cloud, I have a crazy high ladder winrate with him because he is easier to pick up and is stronger in lag. But I don't really have trouble with the MU, especially against people who think following your flowchart is a way to win easy. It can maybe get you to GF in a local, but its pretty meh overall if you walk powershield his aerials, since approaches get him thrwacked and retreating aerials eventually gets him to the ledge which is super deadly as Cloud.

Ill concede he is easy at a low level, but above that he really has to be in your head to pull out a victory. You think people don't deserve to die to Finishing Touch when they get daired? That dair is so freaking obvious every time.

Im not saying I can beat m2k, but he could beat me with lots of characters, because he is better than me.

 

[Ghidorah14]

But Cloud doesn't really excel the same way. In a game with reactable powershielding, Cloud suffers from his predictability.

But I don't really have trouble with the MU, especially against people who think following your flowchart is a way to win easy.

This is the problem right here; you are assuming cloud players play him predictably. That is not an argument against cloud because ANY character played predictably is a lesser threat.

 

[Megamang]

On this very page you pasted like, 5 sentences as a how to play Cloud. I'm just saying it doesn't work that way past low level.

Im done with the who is easy to play discussion, it doesn't go anywhere and the real answer was prepatch luigi.

 

[TurboLink]

Cloud is worth whining about.

Ryu players deserve mad respect.

So, what is it about Cloud you don't like?

 

[Ghidorah14]

On this very page you pasted like, 5 sentences as a how to play Cloud. I'm just saying it doesn't work that way past low level.

Thats all cloud needs to be successful. It's not about low-level vs high level. Obviously, you need a good player behind the character for it to really matter. But my point is that cloud is so easy and simple to learn compared to other characters, but still rewards the player with a strong character.

Ryu players have to lab mad hard to reach that same level of viability.

Im done with the who is easy to play discussion, it doesn't go anywhere and the real answer was prepatch luigi.

I'd argue it was prepatch diddy, but w/e.

So, what is it about Cloud you don't like?

He's incredibly good for how easy he is to play as. It makes practicing with characters like little mac, mewtwo, and lucario seem like a waste of time.

 

[Megamang]

Mewtwo isn't a good comparison for a variety of reasons. Much different approach to the game, including a powerful grab game that Cloud doesn't have. He has a more Ryu esque combo tree than a Cloud like combo tree. I don't know enough about little mac to comment there.

Yea prepatch Diddy was just as bad, probably worse.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Mewtwo isn't a good comparison for a variety of reasons. Much different approach to the game, including a powerful grab game that Cloud doesn't have. He has a more Ryu esque combo tree than a Cloud like combo tree. I don't know enough about little mac to comment there.

Way to miss the point.

 

[Spirst]

Take this to the social if you want to keep discussing this. This is a thread about Witch Time. So the debate on character difficulty isn't relevant.

 

[Giova]

Take this to the social if you want to keep discussing this. This is a thread about Witch Time. So the debate on character difficulty isn't relevant.

Thanks
------------------
Coming back to the topic, another thing we havent discussed:
- When you get hit, witchtime ends

 

[Deaga]

This is very situational, but you can activate Witch Time while you're "Witch Timed" yourself. Will only come up in the ditto and only if your opponent Witch Times you on a move with little lag, so you can counter right back, but it can happen... Triggering your own Witch Time won't end theirs either, though; you have to damage the opposing Bayonetta to "break free". I don't think this is very useful at all, but knowledge is knowledge... >_>

 

[Universe303]

Well Bayo dittos and Multi-Hit Moves with priority.... which is also kinda.... situational...

 

[Tinkady]

Let's talk about Witchtime properties, tips & tricks.

What we know:
- Witch time stall even if you don't counter
- it unstall by time
- it doesnt care if you are at high % or not, just the stall of it
- it cancels combo landing lag
- if you know something write it

What we don't know:
- bat within stall witch time?
- what follows up can we do in what scenarios
- ???? Add things you want to know

Do we know whether it stales at the same rate if you land or don't land the counter aspect?

Also, am I correct that (while it can't be overdone, as it is weak to grabs) at around 120% or more we should be spamming the absolute **** of this move, as even a staled witch time is enough to land an up-smash and kill?

 

[Ghidorah14]

Also, am I correct that (while it can't be overdone, as it is weak to grabs) at around 120% or more we should be spamming the absolute **** of this move, as even a staled witch time is enough to land an up-smash and kill?

Uh, no. Absolutely not.

Besides actively ruining our best kill confirm, you also make it that much easier for the opponent to punish you and possibly take your stock.

 

[Megamang]

Agreed. You may get away with it now, but Witch Time is still a punishable counter and you will eventually face an opponent who is able to punish it severely. Combined with Bayonetta's light weight, I foresee a meta where missing Witch Time is about as deadly as hitting it.

 

[Trexbor17]

Im surprised no one mentioned this yet, but on the first frames of WT you cant grab Bayo, since tether grabs have a lingering grab box they can catch Bayo out of it

 

[Megamang]

Yea, but unless your character has a ****ty grab she can't do anything about another grab, since they beat bat within.


It has been mentioned... many people believe Ness to be a difficult MU for her, due to her difficulty with characters with short stature combined with the fact his grab works as both a damage racking move and a very strong kill move, especially against light characters like Bayo.

 

[Lakuto]

People were talking about how long is WT's duration. But how slow is the opponent getting Witch Timed? Like what is the ratio between normal time and Witch Time?

 

[HoSmash4]

Does anyone have a chart of how long witch time lasts for compared to how many times its been used?

 

[Megamang]

I've heard the duration goes down from 3 seconds to 1 second if recently staled. Other than that, you'll have to look elsewhere, but after that it is pretty much useless.

 

[Tinkady]

Does anyone have a chart of how long witch time lasts for compared to how many times its been used?

This post: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/44tz3d/how_good_is_bayonettas_witch_time_i_did_the_math/

Supposedly, it starts at 3 seconds, loses 1 second every time its used (stacking, but not going below 0.5 seconds), and recharges at a rate of 1 second per 20 seconds.

Can anybody confirm that the time lost is always 1 second regardless of whether it hits the enemy or not?