(LEGALITY) Custom Special Moves: Maybe. Modifiable Attributes: No.

[Moon Monkey]

Not sure if this video has been linked yet but if not, please watch it. It brings up some really good points that not a lot of people are seeing.

Yeah i believe it was posted last page. I also made a video with similar points

Spoiler

I have decided to make a video on the topic

All in all, i hope people give the feature a chance.

 

[Shadow Ganon]

Aren't custom moves banned online meaning they most likely aren't balanced.

Sakurai said in a PotD that the reason they are banned was because the other player won't know what custom moves you are running on your character and vice versa. It seems he does not want any player to be surprised when facing off. This makes me believe that the game will be set up so players playing locally will be able to view what custom moves all the other characters have. Hopefully this means they will be simple to select. My guess is that if you have customization on in the CSS, then after picking your character you are taken to a separate screen divided into 2-4 sections (for each player) where everyone can customize their characters. Then after that you are taken to the stage select. I wouldn't mind that. The better option is to just have the ability to customize the moveset right in the CSS. Either way, these picks can be timed and should not be a problem. As for whether the custom moves are balanced we have yet to find out but so far it's looking pretty good.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't like gray areas, but I feel that an "all or nothing" approach on banning custom moves is not the right way to go. On the other hand, I don't feel that there is a magic number I can give you either, it really just depends on how much we benefit from custom moves being implemented.

Let's say that there are 20 OP custom moves that are game breaking good, most of them are ok, and some of them are useless. So, we ban all customs, and are left with 15 "competitively viable" characters. If we allow custom moves and now we have 25 viable characters, I think it's something we should be considering, since you've almost doubled the amount of characters may perform well in a tournament.

I really don't like dealing with situations like this, and an "all or nothing" is a very practical approach, but I think we will have to take a serious look at the big picture when it comes time to make the decision.

Your position is logical, but I don't think it's very likely to reflect the way the game actually is going to be. If we really had 20 overpowered moves and a clear cut-off to "okay", that would be easy to deal with and I'd quickly agree with you. At the massive power drop between the 20th OP move and the first not-OP move you make a ban. That seems unlikely to be the real balance curve though. If we have 20 OP moves, odds are the 21st best special move is going to be inperceptibly close to being overpowered itself. Maybe the 20th OP move is only so inperceptably overpowered that we're not sure it really is. Maybe we could define overpowered at several points on the balance curve, and the game would work out okay in all cases just differently. How do we handle that then?

In those cases, we have a nightmare ruleset situation on our hands if we try to approach it head-on. It will prove subjective what set of bans produces the "best game", and this will be massively unfair to so many players. Someone is going to main the worst thing that gets banned, and what could very well be thousands of hours of work will go up in smoke for them as their stuff is banned out of the game. As we decide what kind of metagame we favor, players with different natural skillsets will be favored too. Maybe one player is really good at defensive play, but because we collectively hate camping we go with a blend that favors offense. We just legislated that player to lower tournament placings, and that's fundamentally extremely unfair. Make no mistake; if we have very close and difficult to call balance decisions, popularity will inevitably be used in making legality decisions. Everyone wise will agree that's a bad way to do things, but in terms of how the politics will play out, I think the only possible way to avoid it is to guarantee no close and difficult to call balance decisions are ever made at all.

Both "all" and "nothing" are so fundamentally fair that we can guarantee a fair playing field for all players with either road. The "some" approach is a road fraught with peril where we have a significant risk of crafting the metagame through politics rather than play ability, and that is the literal single worst case scenario for any legality discussion. In what I consider the extraordinarily unlikely event that we have an easy decision that isn't "all" or "nothing", I don't mind a little egg on my face; I feel good about standing up now against the idea of arbitrary custom move rulesets because of how likely that is to end really badly.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Okay, I didn't read all of the posts here, but I just wanna thank those who posted my video in here. I haven't read anything like I said but probably will next week when I can. My thoughts are basically summed up in that video, and were founded upon early ideas from the first pages of this thread

 

[Malex]

Your position is logical, but I don't think it's very likely to reflect the way the game actually is going to be. If we really had 20 overpowered moves and a clear cut-off to "okay", that would be easy to deal with and I'd quickly agree with you. At the massive power drop between the 20th OP move and the first not-OP move you make a ban. That seems unlikely to be the real balance curve though. If we have 20 OP moves, odds are the 21st best special move is going to be inperceptibly close to being overpowered itself. Maybe the 20th OP move is only so inperceptably overpowered that we're not sure it really is. Maybe we could define overpowered at several points on the balance curve, and the game would work out okay in all cases just differently. How do we handle that then?

In those cases, we have a nightmare ruleset situation on our hands if we try to approach it head-on. It will prove subjective what set of bans produces the "best game", and this will be massively unfair to so many players. Someone is going to main the worst thing that gets banned, and what could very well be thousands of hours of work will go up in smoke for them as their stuff is banned out of the game. As we decide what kind of metagame we favor, players with different natural skillsets will be favored too. Maybe one player is really good at defensive play, but because we collectively hate camping we go with a blend that favors offense. We just legislated that player to lower tournament placings, and that's fundamentally extremely unfair. Make no mistake; if we have very close and difficult to call balance decisions, popularity will inevitably be used in making legality decisions. Everyone wise will agree that's a bad way to do things, but in terms of how the politics will play out, I think the only possible way to avoid it is to guarantee no close and difficult to call balance decisions are ever made at all.

Both "all" and "nothing" are so fundamentally fair that we can guarantee a fair playing field for all players with either road. The "some" approach is a road fraught with peril where we have a significant risk of crafting the metagame through politics rather than play ability, and that is the literal single worst case scenario for any legality discussion. In what I consider the extraordinarily unlikely event that we have an easy decision that isn't "all" or "nothing", I don't mind a little egg on my face; I feel good about standing up now against the idea of arbitrary custom move rulesets because of how likely that is to end really badly.

I think that if a move is so good that everyone will be forced to play that character to have a chance, it makes sense to ban it. If it doesn't do that, it isn't ban worthy. You are right, though. There will probably be a gray area of moves that are borderline OP, and I don't think it is fair for politicking to determine legality. It should be easily defined. Hopefully, the decision will be easy when the time comes.

 

[κomıc]

I posted this a month ago on a thread that is now closed that involves using the 3DS as Digital Passports/Profiles storing your name, accomplishments, rewards and custom movesets pre-set.

Spoiler

Besides using Amiibos, I think another way to have people participating in tournaments and wanting to use custom movesets they've created for Mii Fighters and Palutena would have to be using the Nintendo 3DS.

Basically, at a set up, there would be an option on the character selection screen where it would allow the player to connect their 3DS to Wii U. Essentially, the 3DS is being used a "User Profile Tag" that stores data such as custom movesets, controls, bonus rewards for winning a match against another player, etc.

Once that option is selected, a code will pop up that will expire in 120 seconds. It's a 5-digit unique code that must be inputted on the 3DS so the Wii U can seamlessly sync with the player's 3DS. This will prevent mistakes of logging into surrounding Wii Us.

That Wii U will essentially temporarily store that data. The player might possibly be able to have the 3DS closed in sleep mode.

After the match(es), all the player has to do is hit the "Disconnect" button and that data is already synced to the 3DS seamlessly while the match was playing out. The player may even receive rare trophies based on performances or even custom parts for their characters.

The Wii U stores the "User Profile Tag", including records, controls, custom movesets, etc so the player doesn't need to always sync up if they want to play again. Of course, if they made changes, they'll have to sync their 3DS back up and the tag should automatically update based on changes made.


--------

I'm thinking something like this may be implemented and I hope it is the case. I'd love to use my custom Miis and Palutena movesets the way I see fit and because I care so much about trophies and collectibles, it'd be a great bonus and incentive to bring my 3DS to these tournaments and have things ready for me directly at the selection screen without having to back out to change controls or what have you. It is all seamless.

I am hoping this makes it in or something similar. I would love to attend tournaments and take home rewards earned from playing the game this way even if I lose at the tournament. Everyone wins, essentially.

 

[Conda]

Regarding custom B moves:

At the end of the day, people will rightfully only adapt custom B moves in tournaments if they're understood and obviously taken into consideration by Sakurai and his team when it comes to character balance. (and don't take too long to setup, maybe like mario kart 8 kart customization which is nice and quick)

Examples:

**If a character is designed with slowness in mind, yet one of their specials gives them a 10 second speed boost, then that is not a special that takes balance into consideration - it makes their 'strong but slow' A-moves into 'strong and fast' A-moves, which breaks things.**

Or

**If Villager gets a burial special move that buries the other player for 5 seconds, that will be broken because they can set up their whole down B plant combo for an unstoppable combo. The down b combo is powerful BECAUSE it is hard to pull off - that is how it is balanced. If one custom move makes it EASY to pull off, then the character becomes imbalanced due to one special move change.**

Or

**Captain Falcon gets a falcon punch that comes out faster, but does less damage. However, it still has the same knockback, which is what falcon punch is used for and designed to be used for anyway, so it is still an unbalanced and superior falcon punch.**

These are the kind of things people see potentially happening. Which is why veterans are choosing to step back and wait to see how balanced the stage is before we allow custom special moves. If it's balanced - AWESOME! But we cannot get emotionally invested in the sparkly "custom metagame!" if it results in an unbalanced and broken metagame.
It's not worth it, and it's not that big of a deal either. It'll be a great metagame anyway if sakurai and the tekken team balanced the game at least better than melee and brawl, which is very likely.

 

[Katy Parry]

Sakurai said in a PotD that the reason they are banned was because the other player won't know what custom moves you are running on your character and vice versa. It seems he does not want any player to be surprised when facing off. This makes me believe that the game will be set up so players playing locally will be able to view what custom moves all the other characters have. Hopefully this means they will be simple to select. My guess is that if you have customization on in the CSS, then after picking your character you are taken to a separate screen divided into 2-4 sections (for each player) where everyone can customize their characters. Then after that you are taken to the stage select. I wouldn't mind that. The better option is to just have the ability to customize the moveset right in the CSS. Either way, these picks can be timed and should not be a problem. As for whether the custom moves are balanced we have yet to find out but so far it's looking pretty good.

It'll probably be on the CSS as well, when you click the name, your "specials" box will appear, and you can choose all the variants right there, and assign them to your name.

I sincerely hope competitive tournaments will most likely recognize character customization as long as its a quick interface option.

For example, if you can choose your set of moves in the same manner you can make your name, which is on the character selection screen, and it doesn't interfere with other players, they will pretty much have no reason to not do this.

Mortal Kombat X is doing something like this as well. When you choose your character, you can choose 3 different versions of, let's say, Scorpion. So you have Scorpion A, B, or C.

Smash is a bit more extreme. Every character is bound to have a good combination because:

4 special moves only x 3 variants of each special move = 12 special moves

12 special moves x 4 special moves at one time x only 3 variants per move = 3 x 3 x 3 x 3

Every character has 81 special move combinations! That's insane and amazing!

How can we possibly pass this up?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

**If a character is designed with slowness in mind, yet one of their specials gives them a 10 second speed boost, then that is not a special that takes balance into consideration

Plautena confirmed banned if Super Speed and especially Lightweight (which allows her to run faster than Sonic the ****ing Hedgehog) aren't her default specials.

 

[.Shìkì]

Plautena confirmed banned if Super Speed and especially Lightweight (which allows her to run faster than Sonic the ****ing Hedgehog) aren't her default specials.

You might miss his point there: What he means is one special giving a passive statboost on speed (as far as i can tell he means attackspeed , jabspeed or w/e) on a heavy, slow, hardhitting character. From what I've seen Palutena isn't particularily slow, nor are Superspeed and Lightweight boosts but more like a charge move (think Ikes Side-B). I disagree with him however, because if down B is a 10 seconds passive speed boost (which won't happen unless you have to somehow charge it like WFT), you will be lacking a complete move. Depending on the strength of the move you traded for that, thats enough of a downside.

Edit : It is unclear how lightweight will work, so for now i will assume it is a move where you have to charge something and then either get a speedboost until your next attack/jump, or propelling you forward similar to Sonic or Yoshis or jiggs' rollattacks.

 

[Conda]

Plautena confirmed banned if Super Speed and especially Lightweight (which allows her to run faster than Sonic the ****ing Hedgehog) aren't her default specials.

I didn't say speed-increasing moves = bannable. I said if special moves alter a character's design too much then it could very well lead to imbalance. ie a heavy hitter like Bowser getting a speed buff would be a big character-design shakeup. But I also provided other examples to show what I was meaning in a general sense.

I think it's easy enough to realise "oh yeah, I've played online multiplayer games before that had customization options, and I remember how some options were plain better than others and sometimes changed the game's meta in an unbalanced way." That's all I ask Some empathetical critical thinking.

 

[RunawayPanda]

I agree with what was said earlier, if it's fast to do, it should be fine

But, I do believe that there will be specific specials that will be probably get the ban hammer, but
we we don't know for sure yet, so we'll just have to wait and see

 

[Malex]

I didn't say speed-increasing moves = bannable. I said if special moves alter a character's design too much then it could very well lead to imbalance. ie a heavy hitter like Bowser getting a speed buff would be a big character-design shakeup. But I also provided other examples to show what I was meaning in a general sense.

I think it's easy enough to realise "oh yeah, I've played online multiplayer games before that had customization options, and I remember how some options were plain better than others and sometimes changed the game's meta in an unbalanced way." That's all I ask Some empathetical critical thinking.

Based on the 30-40 custom moves that we know about, there won't be any "character altering" moves. (Palutena being an exception, because we have no expectation on what hers should be.)

 

[Senario]

I didn't say speed-increasing moves = bannable. I said if special moves alter a character's design too much then it could very well lead to imbalance. ie a heavy hitter like Bowser getting a speed buff would be a big character-design shakeup. But I also provided other examples to show what I was meaning in a general sense.

I think it's easy enough to realise "oh yeah, I've played online multiplayer games before that had customization options, and I remember how some options were plain better than others and sometimes changed the game's meta in an unbalanced way." That's all I ask Some empathetical critical thinking.

That is assuming the speed boost isn't uniform across chars. Runes in league of legends change base attributes but the effects are small ish and generally standardized among diff chars because if your opponent takes it and you don't you are at a disadvantage. This leads me to believe that eventually modify able attributes can be balanced assuming they fall into a similar position where there is optimal options. If players 1 and 2 both get the same speed boost does one really have an advantage over the other? Or does it just act like a global buff to the games speed. Move changes are more iffy since they have varied effects, look at mario fireball.

That said I am fully fine with vanilla being standard with no special attribute changes or move changes. I am sure that will be fairly balanced, though I hesitate to say it will be well balanced thanks to brawl.

 

[Conda]

Based on the 30-40 custom moves there will by any "character altering" moves. (Palutena being an exception, because we have no expectation on what hers should be.)

By character altering, I meant moves that counter the character's design philosophy that the rest of their moveset is balanced towards. IE for Up-Bs, I worry that most of the ones that simply provide better recovery will be preferred over the regular ones, but this could make "characters with bad recovery that balances out their strong moveset" more powerful than intended. This is an example, of course.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

No-one finds my sense of humour funny it seems. But anyway if you would rather I be serious, here goes:

You might miss his point there: What he means is one special giving a passive statboost on speed (as far as i can tell he means attackspeed , jabspeed or w/e) on a heavy, slow, hardhitting character. From what I've seen Palutena isn't particularily slow, nor are Superspeed and Lightweight boosts but more like a charge move (think Ikes Side-B). I disagree with him however, because if down B is a 10 seconds passive MS boost (which won't happen unless you have to somehow charge it like WFT), you will be lacking a complete move. Depending on the strength of the move you traded for that, thats enough of a downside.

I keep hearing that Palutena is "slow" from her supporters and analysts as their justification for her supposedly not even having the potential to be overpowered. Her movement speed looks average at worst and her attacks appear slightly fast. It's nice that you agree with me that she isn't slow though. I don't know where the indication of the two moves being chargeable is, but that makes sense to me. Finally, eh Palutena's specials look pretty lame to me in comparison. I think that SS and Lightweight are probably some of her best options, seeing as how she looks like she might be a keepaway character.

I didn't say speed-increasing moves = bannable. I said if special moves alter a character's design too much then it could very well lead to imbalance. ie a heavy hitter like Bowser getting a speed buff would be a big character-design shakeup. But I also provided other examples to show what I was meaning in a general sense.

I think it's easy enough to realise "oh yeah, I've played online multiplayer games before that had customization options, and I remember how some options were plain better than others and sometimes changed the game's meta in an unbalanced way." That's all I ask Some empathetical critical thinking.

That's how I view those specials though. They look like they could mess with her design too much (you know, if you consider her design to be something more than "lotsa specialzzzzzzz" lol.

But anyway I was just making a joke guys. "Confirmed" is pretty much synonymous with "jumping to conclusions" these days and I mostly use it in a sarcastic fashion, even more so if on the subject of something as serious and definitive as banning.

 

[Bladeviper]

By character altering, I meant moves that counter the character's design philosophy that the rest of their moveset is balanced towards. IE for Up-Bs, I worry that most of the ones that simply provide better recovery will be preferred over the regular ones, but this could make "characters with bad recovery that balances out their strong moveset" more powerful than intended. This is an example, of course.

then learn how to counter it. I don't really see a problem if the better recovery type moves work like mario's do when they showed them, you get a better recovery sure just its attack power is lowered or nil leaving him with one less option to attack with and its only useful to not die. There is a trade off here that would seem to bring stratagey to building a move set to play with

 

[Malex]

then learn how to counter it. I don't really see a problem if the better recovery type moves work like mario's do when they showed them, you get a better recovery sure just its attack power is lowered or nil leaving him with one less option to attack with and its only useful to not die. There is a trade off here that would seem to bring stratagey to building a move set to play with

as far as I know, they've only shown explosive punch. My analysis of it is that it is a drastically reduced recovery option. It is an almost vertical movement, however, if you hit with it, it does some damage and you get a second phase of the attack where you move diagonally forward.

Did they cover super jump?

 

[rmw6190]

you know what I think amiibos would be very useful if they actually transfer movesets. Imagine going to a tournament and putting your amiibo up and you wouldnt even have to waste time on custom movesets which seems to be every ones major problems with custom movesets at tournaments

 

[Bladeviper]

as far as I know, they've only shown explosive punch. My analysis of it is that it is a drastically reduced recovery option. It is an almost vertical movement, however, if you hit with it, it does some damage and you get a second phase of the attack where you move diagonally forward.

Did they cover super jump?

i though they did but i might be wrong. Still its not that big of a deal until the move proves to be overpowered, if it gives increased recovery at lower to no damage then you have to decide if the trade off is worth it

 

[Beats]

you know what I think amiibos would be very useful if they actually transfer movesets. Imagine going to a tournament and putting your amiibo up and you wouldnt even have to waste time on custom movesets which seems to be every ones major problems with custom movesets at tournaments

I can imagine this being useful. But for myself and probably others, I might want to switch up custom moves in the middle of a set as a form of counter picking or just to make it harder for the opponent to figure me out. Having pre-loaded move sets, whether from Amiibos or from something else, wouldn't be able to account for this.

 

[Bladeviper]

the only main problem i can see from the start is if only the first player can choose the moves. This would make mirror matches difficult should players want different moves so we need to check that first i think lol

 

[MajorMajora]

I personally think the conversation shouldn't be "Should they be allowed" but "whether or not there should be a separate tournament style built around them". In other words, you got your vanilla, balance focused tourneys pretending they don't exist and then you have the special "Custom move tourneys" that allow it and have rules designed to make customization as fair and deep as possible.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We aren't going to have two different arcs of tournaments like that, and for that matter, it's not entirely obvious whether the balance gets better or worse with custom special moves. If the balance gets way worse, yeah, banning them likely makes sense. If it gets just a little worse and they make the overall game better? I'd be inclined to support the custom moves.

Also, we've seen some of the interface; I would expect it to work exactly like custom controls in Brawl. You back out to some other menu, you input your stuff associated with your nametag, and then someone else can do the same thing. At best we'll have a shortcut button on the character select screen to go to that menu or importing of stuff from the 3DS for those who have both versions. However, this seriously will not take that much time, certainly less than stage striking already takes now, and if we have time problems, we could easily put a timer on in-between match selections to deal with the people who are slow and again be more strict about cutting out various other dumb time wasters that are common (no "hand warmers", more quickly and strictly DQ people who are not present when their game is called, more consistently run round robin pools correctly and avoid all bottlenecks, etc.) and also save a ton of overall tournament time by not doing Bo5 in finals in an otherwise Bo3 tournament which is a bad idea for a few reasons among which is that it actually adds a huge amount of time to the event, substantially more than adding in custom movesets with virtually any GUI will.

 

[Neosquid]

It seems like the issue is going to boil down to not power/balance, but time-consumption. The genuine concern that is constant whenever custom viability is brought up is "How much time will it take up? No clue??BAN IT NOW!" To this, I say I hope we FULLY embrace custom movesets. We allow people to do obnoxious hand warmers...restart if they don't like a stage choice, counter-pick characters, setting up controls and assigning ourselves names. We waste enough time as is doing things that aren't built into the game, this shouldn't be such a cause for alarm. Most people are probably upset because we haven't seen it in action yet (like most things when it comes to fighting games). Like learning matchups and picking viable stages, we need to test drive it first in legitimate competition.
Think of the benefits though! :
-Tiers will be more useful (and characters will become viable again)
-Dittos won't be boring as all s***
-Players will truly earn their own style and merit based on their setups
-new tech will be discovered.
I say stop freaking out and realize this is truly something to look into.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

The good outweighs the bad with custom moves. At least to me. Does anyone have anything against them that hasn't been discussed? (balance and time). Custom moves to me only seem like they can help the roster. I don't think Mii's and Palutena will be broken by having a lot of options to pick from. Maybe this post will be dumb in 20XX (when everyone plays Palutena in Smash 4 ) but for now it seems pretty reasonable.

 

[Senario]

-Dittos won't be boring as all s***

I dunno man, falcon dittos in melee were always fun to watch and really exciting.

 

[Neosquid]

I dunno man, falcon dittos in melee were always fun to watch and really exciting.

True, but I know I have a personal cringe whenever I see that hawt fox on fox action. or sheik on sheik. That could also just be me.

 

[Senario]

True, but I know I have a personal cringe whenever I see that hawt fox on fox action. or sheik on sheik. That could also just be me.

Maybe I don't get tired of it. To me it is like any other fighting game. You see the better characters far more often than the weaker ones. It doesn't bother me to see a ditto because there are only so many good characters. Melee has about the same/slightly more than your typical 1v1 fighter no assists.

Look at a release blazblue chronophantasma tourney and you will see a lot of Jin, Hazama, and kokonoe with the occasional taokaka or Valkenhayn. Unless the game is specifically balanced for competitive play it is hard to keep the amount of equally viable characters that melee had.

 

[GalacticPetey]

I dunno man, falcon dittos in melee were always fun to watch and really exciting.

Well, that's because he's Falcon.

 

[Neoleo21]

Dittos in melee were always interesting, if they weren't the game wouldn't have lasted over 10 years. But custom moveset won't alleviate most problems with dittos, because its still a matchup, take marth on marth in brawl, on stage its pretty much equal, but off stage, the edgeguarding marth will destroy the other one. The custom moveset thus would only be set to alleviate this situation or force it more often.

 

[Hong]

Dittos in melee were always interesting, if they weren't the game wouldn't have lasted over 10 years. But custom moveset won't alleviate most problems with dittos, because its still a matchup, take marth on marth in brawl, on stage its pretty much equal, but off stage, the edgeguarding marth will destroy the other one. The custom moveset thus would only be set to alleviate this situation or force it more often.

Every time I have to play another Samus I want to tear my eyeballs out.

OT: Really, I don't think we'll be able to make the call until:
1) We know how special moves will be selected in the final build
2) We know how to adjust our existing competitive format
3) We know what's actually an option

Even if some of the custom moves are outright better than others, it's not actually an issue. No game in the world is perfectly balanced, and that's okay. We are still more likely to experience high variety overall unless a single specific special move completely breaks the game, which is possible but the less likely outcome.

 

[Zwzchow]

so yes I am arguing for customized moves to be legal

What are customizable moves?
In Smash4, every character (except Palutena and Miis) will have 2 other variations of a special move (essentially 12 different possible special moves)

Now here comes the fun part
I think customized movesets can add a layer of variation to the meta game. They are just like Pokemon moves where you can choose them to best fit your liking. There can be even more varied tactics with the different variations of moves available. And of course it will allow players to have different choices to better suit their playstyle. (And in the case of Palutena and Mii, can cause the users of either of them to each have very differing tactics due the differing moves.) Thus it creates unpredictability too and does make it more interesting

But they may be unbalanced and broken
Unlike Final Smashes which are outrightly unbalanced and really breaks the metagame, these moves will be balanced as mentioned by Sakurai. (Eg. Fire balls become faster but weaker)

Discuss below

 

[Saikyoshi]

I don't think anyone's disputing this.

 

[Zwzchow]

I don't think anyone's disputing this.

apparently there are some ._.

 

[Oatmeal.]

If this was a different tournament dedicated to customization rather than the default moves, then I think it would be fine.

 

[Saikyoshi]

apparently there are some ._.

The only complaints I've seen are against the Miis as characters (who I will defend to the death, mind you). I'm pretty sure most of us are cool with the standard characters' custom moves.

 

[Leonyx]

I'm sure some are arguing against it, but now that we know more about them, they're just like picking an assist in MvC. The only problem I think might come up is how simple and quick it is to pick which ones you want, but even that's not a huge reason against it.

 

[Zwzchow]

If this was a different tournament dedicated to customization rather than the default moves, then I think it would be fine.

I think this should be legal in the usual rules in potential Smash4 tournaments

 

[PingPongCop]

Yep, custom moves will really shake up the metagame, make it more interesting