Legal Stage List

[Brim]

Timer in this game isn't there for strategic reasons. It is there to make TOing not a nightmare. Actually, smash is a game where camping out the timer is very discouraged as a form of winning a game. That might partially be because in a game like Smash, it is so much easier for people to avoid one another than in other fighting games.

I'll certainly concede the last part, but let me point out that if the timer wasn't there, obviously there couldn't be a TO win or loss (duh). But just because something is frowned upon when used as a strategy in any video game, as long as it's fair - or as fair as video games get, (I know contradictory) shouldn't make it an option that simply can't even be viable it just doesn't work one stages as small as all the legal stages. And, in Smash at competitive play it's not like you're expected to stave off your opponent on purpose to win the match or even a round, so why the complaint about the idea of slightly larger stages that are still quite fair? Also, larger stages gives other characters a better chance to shine (no pun intended) such as zoners - which I'm fairly certain you all are aware of what zone characters are, so I won't explain. Also, some name characters would benefit from it more and would possibly see more play from larger stages, like Samus (regular Samus) so she could actually use the Super wave dash more. But, to be fair it wouldn't come without some repercussions as non-projectile characters would have a more difficult time closing the gap, but one way or another the Pro always finds a way to overcome such obstacles. But, this would also encourage players to take on more characters as for when they're forced to larger stages, since some simply can't perform as well on these stages no matter how good the player.
--
Heh, sorry I went on a bit of a rant there.

 

[Rongunshu]

As long as Halberd is banned, everything is gonna be alright.

 

[Strong Badam]

can we all agree that pokemon stadium 1 is the physical manifestation of satan?

 

[Rongunshu]

can we all agree that pokemon stadium 1 is the physical manifestation of satan?

I wouldn't it consider it that bad, I'm glad they took out the freaking windmill out of the the playing stage and put it in the back. It's more managable than what I said before "Halberd" That map tries to kill you. I do admit PS1 can be pretty bad with the rock transformation and such, but there's worse.

 

[Eisen]

I'm glad this thread was started because stages are some of my biggest disappointments with this game right now. There's not enough diversity (both in layout and aestetics) and where there is, there's player issues with the stage (Skyloft) or glitches/lame factor (Lylat). I'm not really sure where to discuss this professionally either, because everybody I try to talk to about stages doesn't really care or know what they're talking about. I'm not exactly all that knowledgeable either, but I'd like to understand why stages are the way they are.

First off, why is PS1 even a counterpick at so many tournaments? Why is it in row two? Either swap it with Metal Cavern or scrap PS2 and use PS1 but with neither of the bad transformations. Or at least, tweak those transformations.

Secondly, why is FoD a starter? From my understanding, GHZ ought to be swapped with it or Yoshi's Story. Aren't neutrals meant to be less polarized? I get the impression that FoD more strictly tests a player's reactions to the platform movement and that YS is heavily in favor of characters like Marth.

Thirdly, why are 6 legal stages either in the same general layout or in a repeated franchise? I know this is kind of a stupid gripe but I feel at times like the game's neutral stages are disappointingly uninspired by the game's own franchises, being that FD and BF are neutral and YI, YS; FoD, DL64; PS1, PS2 are similar in one way or another.

Finally, why is Metal Cavern on the top row? It's not really my favorite stage, but I see nothing wrong with it. Maybe big blast zones, but hey, people seem to be ok with a decent number of smaller blastzones, so... Anyway, if it's too "janky" or whatever, I'd really like to suggest this stage as a possible PS1 replacement.

Spoiler

Neutral Orpheon [second transformation only]

Pros:
+ Unique Layout, promoting vertical movement without over-polarizing it
+ Fun, according to myself and others I've played with on the stage
+ Would be the first competitive Metroid stage
+ Modest size

Cons:
???

This is just personal opinion, but the single-platform layout isn't quite prominent enough in Smash. Opinion or not, we only have one legal stage with such a layout right now: Yoshi's Island. The difference is though, YI's platform rotates whereas Neutral Frigate's does not.

Also, while it's more of an issue I have with players themselves, I get this sense of a "glass box" when playing this game. It's so often that I play matchups like "vs Marth on BF" or "vs Mario on SV", etc that it's almost as if the true roster size of the game is like 20 characters and the stage list is starters + GHZ, and that's all I play on. I'm not really sure if it's just something I need to get over or if it's a problem that others experience and whether or not the PMBR plans to do anything about it.

 

[The_NZA]

Totally agree with FoD not being a starter. That stage being a neutral alongside YI melee makes very little sense to me. Have one, or the other. I think FoD is vetoed so often, it no longer belongs amongst the other starters (since starters must abide by 2 rules. 1) be diverse from other starters, 2) be popular enough that two people could conceivably both agree to it with some consistency across a wide breadth of players.

Amongst the starters, we already have 3 other stages with short side blastzones (PS2, SV, YI Melee), 1 large stage all around (DL 64), one flat medium stage all around (FD), one 3 platform stage with a high ceiling and medium sides. Seems to me, there already is short side blastzone representation. I'd vote for switching FoD with GHZ (since it has relatively the same boundaries but a different less annoying platform layout), or switching FoD with YI Brawl (for a larger stage representation).

 

[Rizner]

I think there's too much focus since apex for tournaments to just use bottom two rows. TOs should feel free to use page 1 stages as they see fit, and not worry if something is row 3 or a starter is on row 3 or banning a stage on row 2. I think people have gotten kinda lazy and just accepted that apex knew what is best and then link to those rules because why not.

That being said, I would do the following:
Starters:
Cavern
Fd
Bf
Yoshi brawl
Fod
Dreamland
Sv
Ps2
Ghz

Counter pick:
Yoshi island
Sse jungle/pikmin level name I forget what it is now
Three platform sky world (the pit level more to the left)
Wario stage
Dracs
Norfair

Give like 3 bans

 

[Terotrous]

I would just like to once again express my hate for Pokemon Stadium 1. That stage should totally be on page 2. I'd much rather have Corneria, Pictochat, Delfino Plaza, or Pirate Ship on page 1.

Actually, I feel that at this point some weeklies should try running the entirety of page 1 just to see if it is viable.

 

[XXXX1000]

I've mentioned this elsewhere on the board, but I think that if there were an option in-game to create a ban list like Apex (with the green, yellow, red borders) then it'd make TOs more likely to experiment. No one would need to memorize it because it'd be right in front of you, it'd be easy to customize so you could do something different every week/month like Smashing Grounds (props to NZA and co btw).

I agree with the sentiments about FoD as well, while it is fairly neutral, I think it's just something that is accepted because it was in Melee, and PM doesn't need to hold on to it if there are problems with it.

 

[Eisen]

I almost want to host custom small tournaments/money matches in my area, and include some alternative, modded stages to the list. Not too many people in my area, though. Are there any unofficial stages you guys have stumbled across that you much enjoy?

 

[Rongunshu]

I'm glad this thread was started because stages are some of my biggest disappointments with this game right now. There's not enough diversity (both in layout and aestetics) and where there is, there's player issues with the stage (Skyloft) or glitches/lame factor (Lylat). I'm not really sure where to discuss this professionally either, because everybody I try to talk to about stages doesn't really care or know what they're talking about. I'm not exactly all that knowledgeable either, but I'd like to understand why stages are the way they are.

First off, why is PS1 even a counterpick at so many tournaments? Why is it in row two? Either swap it with Metal Cavern or scrap PS2 and use PS1 but with neither of the bad transformations. Or at least, tweak those transformations.

Secondly, why is FoD a starter? From my understanding, GHZ ought to be swapped with it or Yoshi's Story. Aren't neutrals meant to be less polarized? I get the impression that FoD more strictly tests a player's reactions to the platform movement and that YS is heavily in favor of characters like Marth.

Thirdly, why are 6 legal stages either in the same general layout or in a repeated franchise? I know this is kind of a stupid gripe but I feel at times like the game's neutral stages are disappointingly uninspired by the game's own franchises, being that FD and BF are neutral and YI, YS; FoD, DL64; PS1, PS2 are similar in one way or another.

Finally, why is Metal Cavern on the top row? It's not really my favorite stage, but I see nothing wrong with it. Maybe big blast zones, but hey, people seem to be ok with a decent number of smaller blastzones, so... Anyway, if it's too "janky" or whatever, I'd really like to suggest this stage as a possible PS1 replacement.

Spoiler

Neutral Orpheon [second transformation only]

Pros:
+ Unique Layout, promoting vertical movement without over-polarizing it
+ Fun, according to myself and others I've played with on the stage
+ Would be the first competitive Metroid stage
+ Modest size

Cons:
???

This is just personal opinion, but the single-platform layout isn't quite prominent enough in Smash. Opinion or not, we only have one legal stage with such a layout right now: Yoshi's Island. The difference is though, YI's platform rotates whereas Neutral Frigate's does not.

Also, while it's more of an issue I have with players themselves, I get this sense of a "glass box" when playing this game. It's so often that I play matchups like "vs Marth on BF" or "vs Mario on SV", etc that it's almost as if the true roster size of the game is like 20 characters and the stage list is starters + GHZ, and that's all I play on. I'm not really sure if it's just something I need to get over or if it's a problem that others experience and whether or not the PMBR plans to do anything about it.

A competitive legal Metroid stage?

I approve.

 

[Terotrous]

I've mentioned this elsewhere on the board, but I think that if there were an option in-game to create a ban list like Apex (with the green, yellow, red borders) then it'd make TOs more likely to experiment. No one would need to memorize it because it'd be right in front of you, it'd be easy to customize so you could do something different every week/month like Smashing Grounds (props to NZA and co btw).

That'd certainly be a nice feature, but "all of page 1 is legal" (presumably bottom row = starters, top 2 rows = counterpick) is really easy to remember, too.

 

[SixSaw]

Thirdly, why are 6 legal stages in a repeated franchise?

Glad to see I'm not the only one bugged by this. More series should get representation in tournament legal stages, even if it only means reskinning existing layouts.

 

[arcticfox8]

Frigate should totally be Page 1 instead of PS1.

 

[Terotrous]

Frigate should totally be Page 1 instead of PS1.

"Oh sweet, I totally lined up the sweetspot on this- What? That ledge is ungrabbable? Damn you Frigate Orpheon!"
- Me every time I play on that stupid stage

 

[Rongunshu]

To be honest I don't see why there's so much hate for PS1 here, I don't see it as such a bad stage.

 

[Terotrous]

To be honest I don't see why there's so much hate for PS1 here, I don't see it as such a bad stage.

Try fighting my (or anyone's) Ivysaur there. When it comes to the rock transformation, we're just going to hide on the left side behind the wall and get Solarbeam. You want to come after us? Have a Seed Bomb in your face. Air dodge or go off the stage to avoid it? Enjoy being Baired to death.

Vertical walls are generally horrible for balance, and the PS1s are especially bad because they're not even in the middle of the stage where you can somewhat play around it, they're right on the edge.

 

[The_NZA]

To be honest I don't see why there's so much hate for PS1 here, I don't see it as such a bad stage.

What's the point of having two stages are identical but one is just way worse for tournament play? It's so dumb that as a player, if you want to ban one, you have to use 2 bans.

 

[Rongunshu]

Try fighting my (or anyone's) Ivysaur there. When it comes to the rock transformation, we're just going to hide on the left side behind the wall and get Solarbeam. You want to come after us? Have a Seed Bomb in your face. Air dodge or go off the stage to avoid it? Enjoy being Baired to death.

Vertical walls are generally horrible for balance, and the PS1s are especially bad because they're not even in the middle of the stage where you can somewhat play around it, they're right on the edge.

That is true, vertical walls can be dumb. Before I knew much about competitive PM, I didn't think that was a legal stage. I was surprised that it was, But at least it's no Halberd or Frigate Orpheon with the dumb edges. I see it can be competitive as it has the factors to be one except the transformations of course. I see that the purpose of PS2 is only if you don't like PS1 because of the transformations so they're giving you the option of no transformations while it's still pokemon stadium. Regardless I do think that PS2 is a much better stage solely because of no transformations but it doesn't bother me really when I do play PS1. You just have to take advantage of the transformations somehow in your way.

 

[Rongunshu]

What's the point of having two stages are identical but one is just way worse for tournament play? It's so dumb that as a player, if you want to ban one, you have to use 2 bans.

They probably have PS1 for the purpose of "Here try using your surroundings as an advantage" or something like that. It's one of the only legal stages that actually does that which makes PS1 pretty unique, but it can be a bad unique as it has what illegal stages have. It's just on opinion on the stage and for now I suppose the opinion tourney makers have is that PS1 is a legal stage.

 

[Terotrous]

They probably have PS1 for the purpose of "Here try using your surroundings as an advantage" or something like that. It's one of the only legal stages that actually does that which makes PS1 pretty unique, but it can be a bad unique as it has what illegal stages have. It's just on opinion on the stage and for now I suppose the opinion tourney makers have is that PS1 is a legal stage.

The issue is generally that the stage transformations limit your options. In my Ivysaur example above, the reason you can't break that camp is because the stage has shut down all of your options to approach from the front. A set of tools that might have valid counters under normal circumstances can become unbeatable when some of those counters are taken away.

 

[Strong Badam]

What's the point of having two stages are identical but one is just way worse for tournament play? It's so dumb that as a player, if you want to ban one, you have to use 2 bans.

people aren't used to recognizing counterpick redundancy as an issue. working on changing that.

 

[Rongunshu]

The issue is generally that the stage transformations limit your options. In my Ivysaur example above, the reason you can't break that camp is because the stage has shut down all of your options to approach from the front. A set of tools that might have valid counters under normal circumstances can become unbeatable when some of those counters are taken away.

Yeah I do see what you mean. Although the only thing I see that has that problem is the rock formation. With the others there isn't that much of an issue, the fire one has much more options you can perform as there isn't such a vertical block of the stage, but seeing a stage that is different like PS1 is a bit more enjoyable to have of choice. It's more of just a counterpick it seems (Excluding the rock transformation as that can be quite annoying).

 

[Guilu]

Glad to see I'm not the only one bugged by this. More series should get representation in tournament legal stages, even if it only means reskinning existing layouts.

I personally don't care and want to see more Kirby stages with more Gourmet Race remixes.

can we all agree that pokemon stadium 1 is the physical manifestation of satan?

Yes. Yes indeed. Have a like.

To be honest I don't see why there's so much hate for PS1 here, I don't see it as such a bad stage.

Transforming stages are only as good as their worst form, and that means that PS1 is the Devil.

 

[CyberZixx]

I would love PS1 if the rock transformation was removed and the fire had the tree put into the background like the windmill.

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah I do see what you mean. Although the only thing I see that has that problem is the rock formation. With the others there isn't that much of an issue, the fire one has much more options you can perform as there isn't such a vertical block of the stage, but seeing a stage that is different like PS1 is a bit more enjoyable to have of choice. It's more of just a counterpick it seems (Excluding the rock transformation as that can be quite annoying).

Rock is definitely the worst and absolutely needs to go if we're keeping the stage. Fire is also pretty bad, and with Rock gone, it'd show up more often (since there's now one less transformation to choose from). If we remove both, there's only two transformations left, which really isn't very many. I think a better strategy might be to just completely change the transformations so all of them are tolerable, but that's more work.

 

[Eisen]

"Oh sweet, I totally lined up the sweetspot on this- What? That ledge is ungrabbable? Damn you Frigate Orpheon!"

Hence why I suggested

Spoiler

Neutral Orpheon [second transformation only]

Pros:
+ Unique Layout, promoting vertical movement without over-polarizing it
+ Fun, according to myself and others I've played with on the stage
+ Would be the first competitive Metroid stage
+ Modest size

Cons:
???

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I some what like the amount of stages we have to select from. My problem, is the lack of diversity, as previously mentioned. For me, this applies more so to the competitive stages because a lot of the stages are pretty similar in structure. Which is a double edge sword when picking\counter picking in tournament play. Also, with two or three bans bans, you really can't eliminate the type of stage you are attempting to stray from. I'm in no way, shape or form, implying our stage selection should be like or even close to melee, but, stages with greater diversity would be appropriated.

@ Eisen I've seen some good ones, I'll show you sometime soonish.

 

[MagnesD3]

All stages on the first page should be allowed as counterpicks as they are all competitively viable and would add alot more depth to different matchups. I really hope the community opens up to them being allowed.

 

[SixSaw]

If everything on page 1 is legal then we're going to need like 6-7 bans lol

 

[lordvaati]

that's where mutural consent comes in. Depending on most events, Random choice is a factor as well.

In fact that's what I kind of consider a weakess of 1-2-2-1: the fact that the stage list HAS to be small, even in scenarios of a game with a relatively well- rounded amount of stages.

this comes down a little bit to my own opinion, but still a factor nevertheless.

 

[Phaiyte]

I kinda wish that the custom Summit stage was official. The one with two platforms floating vertically, a bear in the background on the stage, and the original Summit stage in the actual background near the lower blastzone. One of my favorite stages right now.

Not a personal fan of PS1, and would likely rather play on PS2 any day.

I also think that Norfair and Castle Siege should be removed from the front page, but that's just me.

 

[MagnesD3]

If everything on page 1 is legal then we're going to need like 6-7 bans lol

5 bans is fine. I consider it worth it to give the game more depth/variety instead of ignoring well designed stages.

 

[SixSaw]

5 bans is really not fine when you're adding 7 new stages that are nowhere near balanced.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Can we please replace PS1 with Dracula's Castle? Thank you.

Also someone make Castle Sky official for Project M kthxbai

 

[MagnesD3]

5 bans is really not fine when you're adding 7 new stages that are nowhere near balanced.

You meant they arent balanced in your opinion. Just because they arent like the neutral stages doesnt make them imbalanced...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

People hate on Skyloft for literally no reason. Do y'all have any idea how good it is against projectile characters? That slope and high platforms make it hard for them to control space. I like fighting Mario and Link there.

 

[SixSaw]

You meant they arent balanced in your opinion. Just because they arent like the neutral stages doesnt make them imbalanced.

No I mean they're not balanced. Castle Siege, Halberd, Rumble Falls, Dracula's, all massively favor certain characters in certain matchups it's not even up for debate. And not being like the neutral stages does matter when the neutral stages are neutral for a reason.

Sorry to sound overly negative, but the quantity over quality approach is just not a good idea when it comes to the stage-list.

 

[Juushichi]

Halberd, Drac's and RF (doubles only) are all okay stages. Castle Siege is only not a good stage because it is literally unstable. There should never be PS1 and PS2 legal in the same stage list. I also agree w/ Rizner about people being lazy and just taking the APEX stage list. More towards doubles than singles, though.

Singles
Starter (7 Stages):
FD/BF/FoD/PS2/SV/DL/YS

Counterpick (6 or *9 stages):
YI:B, Lylat, *Halberd | WW, GHZ, *MC | Skyloft, Skyworld, *Drac's,

Doubles:
Starter (5 stages):
FD/BF/PS2/SV/DL

Counterpick (7 Stages):
YI:B, Lylat, Norfair, Distant Planet, Skyloft, Kongo Jungle 64, Dracula's Castle

This is what I'm currently looking at for a stage list for my tournaments. With the counterpicks in singles, I'm not sure if there should just be 6 or 9. I'm leaning more towards 6 though. Two or three bans. Dave's Stupid Rule.

Truth be told, I think there are a lot of fine doubles stages that could be used. It's hard to really choose, imo.

 

[XXXX1000]

I really don't see why people don't like Metal Cavern, it has potential to be a strong counterpick and allow some characters to compete. I think the idea should at least be entertained