Legal Stage List

[Terotrous]

I think the general concensus is that the entire part where the ship attacks you is a problem, and that only removing 1/3 parts isn't helping much.( at least here anyway as they can remain CPs for all I care in Brawl.)

My way of thinking is that "the problem" is when the stage significantly takes away your options, because this can create imbalance. Like in the example I gave for Pokemon Stadium 1, the vertical walls prevent you from approaching me from the front, potentially making the ability to camp too strong. Similarly, the claw on Halberd is a problem because it strikes so fast. The only way to avoid being hit is to air dodge or shield, but the opponent can cover those options for a free hit (also, unlike the Cannon and Bomb, it's impossible to use the claw to your advantage).

The Cannon isn't really like this, though, there's loads of ways to avoid the laser. After it locks, it takes a moment to fire, so as long as you're moving you won't get hit (unless you get hit back into it, at any rate). Ditto the bomb. It always lands in the same place, comes out real slow, and a large part of the stage isn't affected, it's quite easy to get around it.

 

[Burning Boom]

The problem I have with Halberd is how different it is from the others. It's the only stage on the first page where you can go through the floor, as well as the only one that can kill you. You've argued that we have other stages changing the way people play, but I don't see Dreamland's wind or even Yoshi's Island fly guys having nearly as much influence on play as Halberd's cannon. You can't ignore the latter as you could the former.

The canon of Halberd is an element of the stage, and no you can't ignore, but why should you be able to? What is inherently wrong with not being able to completely ignore an element of the stage? You can't ignore different kinds of platforms, ledges, borders, they are something you have to account for.

For the record, I have no problem with Halberd's main floor being pass-through, I think that's a cool design thing that gives multi-jumpers and some characters like Diddy and Ike some extra recovery options (recover high, sweetspot, recover low and through the stage)

Ultimately, the disagreement mainly lies in Halberd's cannon. Does it add gameplay? Of course. Can it be used skillfully to someone's advantage? definitely. That doesn't mean that it's fine to use. I see a lot of "well, if you can't use it well then ban it!" but placing the blame on players being bad distracts from the issue. Whether it's two low-level players who can't wavedash or M2K vs Armada shouldn't matter. If Armada were to beat M2K on Halberd because he threw M2K into the laser, would you say that M2K didn't know how to use the laser to his advantage? No, you'd say that it's somewhat convenient that the laser happened to be fire in an area that Armada could take advantage of. The cannon is unpredictable enough that a player at stage select cannot every safely be able to rely on it, but it is significant enough that it could change the course of a game. It's a variable that cannot be accounted for in a concrete way like platforms, ledges, etc. can.

You have somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds to react, that's enough time for a quick thinker to come up with a plan. There are other elements of the game that are a bit random (mostly in character's movesets, like Judge, Vegetables, Waddle Dee throw), but you should know to be prepared for the possibility, and there is opportunity to react. In the Armada vs. M2K situation you listed, I would say that M2K allowed himself to be caught at a bad time, when he should have been more cautious. I would say that Armada took advantage of a situation which M2K had equal opportunity to take advantage of himself. Let's look at Smashville again. It's moving platform can just easily decide a game, arguable more so, and thus players must, to an extent, play around it.

 

[XXXX1000]

I'm not even gonna lie I forgot about the bomb, and I didn't even realize the claw was gone. I don't play on Halberd terribly often. I don't really know the intimate mechanics of the bomb but I'll go ahead and say that I'd probably have an issue with that as well.

And I'll go ahead and say that I also dislike Judgement, Peach's turnips, and Waddle Dee toss, though once again I'm picking and choosing my battles and not arguing against those. And before you try and call this a contradiction, just because I'm choosing to not argue against those elements or against DL whispy woods is because I don't think it's worth my effort to argue for their removal when I could be doing other things with my time. They are "acceptable" in the sense that I'm not going to quit playing PM because of them, but to me they are not acceptable in the sense that I would have them tweaked/removed if I had control over the game.

You're not acknowledging the fact that the cannon may have displaced M2K and caused him to force himself into an unfavorable position. You're once again just saying that the player played badly and that they deserve it, when you don't acknowledge that one other player is being assisted by the cannon. To generalize every situation like that as "One player played well and the other messed up" is completely unfair, because you acknowledge that the cannon is a random element. If there are two equally skilled players, then the cannon can provide an advantage to one entirely at random. The other poster's example about getting ledgeguarded by the cannon is a good example, because if someone is trying to recover then the cannon can completely remove their options. Just because you know the cannon is going to fire in 6 seconds doesn't change the fact that it interrupts the match by creating an area that is dangerous to be in.

 

[Guilu]

The canon of Halberd is an element of the stage, and no you can't ignore, but why should you be able to? What is inherently wrong with not being able to completely ignore an element of the stage? You can't ignore different kinds of platforms, ledges, borders, they are something you have to account for.

What's wrong is that people don't accept it because it's too different. Varying platform lengths is something we're used to in competitive play, as are fly guys getting in our way and Randall's shenanigans. What we are not used to accepting though, is an element of the stage killing us outright. As you propose it, this would be the only stage with such a feature, in addition to being the only stage which you can jump through. For as long as this is the case, I absolutely cannot see Halberd being legal anywhere without heavy contestation of the ruleset from the players, so what's the point in even arguing this ? Halberd is just off-limits. It's not even considered as a CP-list candidate, it might as well be a page two stage.

 

[Terotrous]

You're not acknowledging the fact that the cannon may have displaced M2K and caused him to force himself into an unfavorable position.

That's because the cannon can't displace you on its own. Try playing the stage in training mode and see how often the cannon hits you. The cannon is no threat by itself, it requires the other player to make it a threat.

Note that this is not the case with the claw. Even when playing alone, you still have to take evasive action to avoid the claw. You can't just move in any direction to avoid it because it strikes too fast.

You're once again just saying that the player played badly and that they deserve it, when you don't acknowledge that one other player is being assisted by the cannon.

Okay, let's suppose we're having a match right now, the situation is relatively neutral, and the cannon appears, targeting me. Who is being assisted right now?

The truth is you can't tell. It could be you, me, or no one, depending on how the next 6 seconds play out. If you make a smart play with the cannon, you can get a big reward, but if you mess up and get caught instead, it could be costly. Either way though I feel the result is earned.

 

[Terotrous]

What we are not used to accepting though, is an element of the stage killing us outright. As you propose it, this would be the only stage with such a feature, in addition to being the only stage which you can jump through.

Replace Pokemon Stadium 1 with Pirate Ship then, problem solved.

 

[Guilu]

Replace Pokemon Stadium 1 with Pirate Ship then, problem solved.

That just furthers the point that Halberd belongs on Page 2 doesn't it ?

 

[Terotrous]

That just furthers the point that Halberd belongs on Page 2 doesn't it ?

TBH Pirate Ship is fairly legit now that the hazards don't just insta-kill you anymore. I could also see a case being made for Delfino Plaza, or Frigate Orpheon if they fix that one stupid ledge that you can't grab.

Pokemon Stadium 1 is clearly worse than all of these stages.

 

[Burning Boom]

What's wrong is that people don't accept it because it's too different. Varying platform lengths is something we're used to in competitive play, as are fly guys getting in our way and Randall's shenanigans. What we are not used to accepting though, is an element of the stage killing us outright. As you propose it, this would be the only stage with such a feature, in addition to being the only stage which you can jump through. For as long as this is the case, I absolutely cannot see Halberd being legal anywhere without heavy contestation of the ruleset from the players, so what's the point in even arguing this ? Halberd is just off-limits. It's not even considered as a CP-list candidate, it might as well be a page two stage.

Your argument is that it has a feature no other stage has? I hope you realize how slippery a slope that is. Fine, uh let's see, Green Hill is the only stage with a platform that moves in semi-ciruclar motion, Skyworld's platform layout is completely unique, as is WW's and YIB's, Dreamland is the only stage with Wispy Woods, and Smashville is the only stage where a pass-through platform can be above completely off the main stage, and that's just what I can remember from page 1 off the top of my head. As to an element of the stage being able to kill you outright, every stage has some of those, they're integral to the game, they're called borders but we know they're there and avoid them. You're point about point of contestion among players is well.... pointless. Lots of things can be "points of contention among players", people can find a way to complain about anything. I am certain, that if you found a big enough A-hole, and had him play a match with say M2K on FD, he would find a way to say the stage screwed them over. Just because people would have a hard time accepting something, doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried. If that were the case, we should never have tried to come up with the Theory of Evolution, the Big Bang Theory (not the show), democracy, oh and black people should still be slaves. However, I feel rather dumb arguing all this right now because..

I'm not even gonna lie I forgot about the bomb.

Me too. And I remember hating it with a fiery passion. It's obnoxious, hard to predict, and cuts off parts of the stage at complete random. Tbh, I'd thought they removed it, but I was playing on Halberd yesterday and I encountered it so yeah..... However much I may think the canon isn't that bad, I can't bring myself to get behind the bomb, which may seem like an arbitrary line to some people, but whatever.

 

[XXXX1000]

Terotrous, the point isn't that you can't tell who's being assisted by the cannon, the point is that no one should be assisted by the cannon at all. I don't think that bad players should be punished in that way, and I don't think good players should be able to take advantage of that option. Also, if you're being targeted by the cannon, you are definitely in the worse position, because if you were to try to go offensive all I'd have to do is knock you back to it, where as you'd either have to bthrow me or get behind me and knock me back to it. I could also risk my luck and go offensive and try those options as well, but the point is the person not targeted has more options. Also, if there's a ledge situation, the cannon can completely interfere with that. It'd be really silly to be playing really well and keeping someone off stage, but then you have to back away because of the cannon and they get a free recovery. Who was the better player there? No way to know and it doesn't matter. I don't care who's better, worse, any of that, I don't think anyone should ever get to take advantage of the cannon in competitive play.

 

[Terotrous]

Also, if you're being targeted by the cannon, you are definitely in the worse position, because if you were to try to go offensive all I'd have to do is knock you back to it.

You're assuming I'm always going to let the cannon fire behind me, but I also have the option to move backwards just as it prepares to fire and let it fire in front of me, like a shield of sorts.

For example, if I'm Falco, and the cannon targets me, I can just sit there and shoot lasers for 5 seconds, then move backwards to put up a super dangerous wall between us and shoot more lasers. If you want to stop my lasers, you're the one who has to approach, but I bet the cannon would make you wary of doing it.

Also, if you get knocked off stage, I'm just going to hang on the ledge until the cannon prepares to fire, then roll back onto the stage. Good luck recovering now. At best you'd have to recover super super high onstage, which gives me a free charged smash attack.

 

[MagnesD3]

I wont defend pirate ship becuz swimming doesnt belong in competitive play...

 

[XXXX1000]

Yes I understand those situations and ways you can use the cannon, I am saying that it should not be allowed, because there will always be someone in a worse position caused by the stage in an unpredictable manner.

 

[MagnesD3]

The cannon is a neutral tool.

 

[Guilu]

The cannon is a neutral tool.

The fact that the cannon is a tool at all is the issue here.

 

[Terotrous]

I wont defend pirate ship becuz swimming doesnt belong in competitive play...

Swimming probably would need some kind of adjustment to work properly. Didn't one of the Brawl hacks put in something where if you jumped into the water a few times in a row you'd just drown?

Yes I understand those situations and ways you can use the cannon, I am saying that it should not be allowed, because there will always be someone in a worse position caused by the stage in an unpredictable manner.

There's nothing unpredictable about it, besides whom it locks on to, and we already discussed that can be either a good or a bad thing depending on your actions.

The fact that the cannon is a tool at all is the issue here.

Platforms are a tool too.

 

[MagnesD3]

The fact that the cannon is a tool at all is the issue here.

Everything is a tool in smash bros. though.... so I dont see the issue If the cannon truly is a neutral tool (which I see it as) then there should be no problem.

 

[XXXX1000]

Platforms don't do damage and are predictable whereas the cannon is not.

 

[Terotrous]

Platforms don't do damage and are predictable whereas the cannon is not.

Except that the cannon is totally predictable, the cursor appears after a certain amount of time on that part of the stage and then it fires after another specific amount of time has passed. It can kill you, but conversely, a moving platform can save you. Why is the latter considered okay?

 

[XXXX1000]

the cannon does not move in the same way every time, it is a variable that cannon be accounted for in the same way that platforms can.

 

[Terotrous]

the cannon does not move in the same way every time, it is a variable that cannon be accounted for in the same way that platforms can.

It's still deterministic, it just follows the player's actions rather than a preset pattern. FYI, Fountain of Dreams is actually random.

 

[Burning Boom]

Platforms don't do damage and are predictable whereas the cannon is not.

Just want to point out stage spiking here..... just sayin'.

 

[Joe73191]

If we put metal cavern where ps1 is and ps1 where metal cavern is we could say that bottom row is starters, middle row is counter pick singles and top row is counter pick doubles. That could work.

 

[Guilu]

Everything is a tool in smash bros. though.... so I dont see the issue If the cannon truly is a neutral tool (which I see it as) then there should be no problem.

Platforms are a tool too.

Doesn't matter if it's neutral or not. It's a tool that's exclusive to this stage and drastically changes the way it's played. If there was a very predictable baseball bat delivery system on PS2, that would put a bat in the middle of the field every minute, it would be neutral too. However people would not like it because it's such a game-changer.

I don't even know why I'm bothering, you guys go find 16 people who can agree to put Halberd on a legal stage list for serious tournaments and call us when you do. In the meantime we have plenty of viable terrains with the rest.

 

[JacopeX]

In the latest Xanadu crew battle, they had the Distant Planet stage set to banned.

Is this official?

 

[Terotrous]

Doesn't matter if it's neutral or not. It's a tool that's exclusive to this stage and drastically changes the way it's played. If there was a very predictable baseball bat delivery system on PS2, that would put a bat in the middle of the field every minute, it would be neutral too. However people would not like it because it's such a game-changer.

I don't even know why I'm bothering, you guys go find 16 people who can agree to put Halberd on a legal stage list for serious tournaments and call us when you do. In the meantime we have plenty of viable terrains with the rest.

Yes yes, we know, no items, fox only, final destination. Only true way to play Smash.

If you're willing to admit there's no solid reason not to have this stage other than the fact that most players are completely unwilling to adapt that's fine. I'll accept that explanation. Just don't pretend there's anything intrinsically unfair about the stage because there's not.

 

[Burning Boom]

Yes yes, we know, no items, fox only, final destination. Only true way to play Smash.

If you're willing to admit there's no solid reason not to have this stage other than the fact that most players are completely unwilling to adapt that's fine. I'll accept that explanation. Just don't pretend there's anything intrinsically unfair about the stage because there's not.

Wanted to like this for the mindset, but still.... dem bombs.

 

[Guilu]

Yes yes, we know, no items, fox only, final destination. Only true way to play Smash.

If you're willing to admit there's no solid reason not to have this stage other than the fact that most players are completely unwilling to adapt that's fine. I'll accept that explanation. Just don't pretend there's anything intrinsically unfair about the stage because there's not.

I never pretended I had any other argument, there's so little play on Halberd that any discussion on whether the exclusive elements are neutral is baseless.
It's not about the "only true way to play Smash", it's about the way we can agree on to play Smash. You're not going to get people to agree to play on this one stage that's so alien to the others, when they're used to a standard. So it's no use. Play on it if you want and if your opponent agrees, I have nothing against that. But don't make its presence play an influence on how a tournament goes, because at the end of the day, somebody will complain that they got beaten on that stage because of its exclusive features, and all you'll get from others is a nod that they would not mind seeing it gone. Again, we could play with less than a dozen stage and be just fine, and if I had to choose those 12 stages Halberd would not be among them.

 

[Terotrous]

I never pretended I had any other argument, there's so little play on Halberd that any discussion on whether the exclusive elements are neutral is baseless.
It's not about the "only true way to play Smash", it's about the way we can agree on to play Smash. You're not going to get people to agree to play on this one stage that's so alien to the others, when they're used to a standard. So it's no use. Play on it if you want and if your opponent agrees, I have nothing against that. But don't make its presence play an influence on how a tournament goes, because at the end of the day, somebody will complain that they got beaten on that stage because of its exclusive features, and all you'll get from others is a nod that they would not mind seeing it gone. Again, we could play with less than a dozen stage and be just fine, and if I had to choose those 12 stages Halberd would not be among them.

I don't see where this notion that the other stages are all "standard" comes from, at least half the stages in play have something that makes them unique. Green Greens has Whispy. Yoshi's has Randall. Green Hill has a platform that moves in an arc. Fountain of Dreams has platforms that move randomly / disappear. Pokemon Stadium 1 is the only stage that transforms, and has other things like vertical walls. Skyloft has its entire design. Etc.

Also, Halberd is very familiar to Brawl players, as it's always allowed in Brawl tournies. And they have to put up with the stupid claw.

It seems like the main sticking point is that the cannon can feasibly kill you, but so what? Worst case, it costs you one stock. But what about all the other levels that can cause you to SD? I'd argue that Randall contributes WAY more lost stocks than the Cannon ever could, and there's all the annoying levels where you can get caught under the stage.

TBQH I think the entire reason the top row is not currently allowed is solely because people are afraid of change. It's a new game people, man up. At least try it first before you declare it to be broken.

 

[MagnesD3]

TBQH I think the entire reason the top row is not currently allowed is solely because people are afraid of change. It's a new game people, man up. At least try it first before you declare it to be broken.

I agree with this part.

 

[Guilu]

What do people think of Drac's ? I've heard some complaints that it favoured some characters, but that's not an undesireable trait for a CP stage as far as I'm aware.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Drac's is sexy.

But you're asking a biased player here.

Also ... why are people complaining about it favoring some characters, when that basically means C-O-U-N-T-E-R-P-I-C-K?

 

[lordvaati]

Yeah worst argument I hear for Drac's is supposed circle camping...but I kinda doubt it's as extreme as people think it is.

Definitely fine as a CP.

 

[Guilu]

Yeah worst argument I hear for Drac's is supposed circle camping...but I kinda doubt it's as extreme as people think it is.

Definitely fine as a CP.

Drac's has been legal in the UK and Germany even after 3.0, so I would look there for possible evidence (although, with the stage being a CP and an extremely traited one at that, it probably doesn't see much play).

A similar discussion has popped up in the SmashUK facebook group and recently moved into the EU P:M smash group, so I think I should link to it for additional insight into people's opinions :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/467771629990052/permalink/471571472943401/
The SmashUK discussion is unfortunately restricted to members of that group.

The criticism sumup on the first page has been updated. Additional precisions were made to the "odd ledges" and "odd platforms" mentions that were previously on Lylat Cruise and Skyworld. Also mentions the tether failures in the Yoshi stages that have caused Super Smash Sundays (held at Super Arcade in California; broadcast by IEBattlegrounds) to ban both of them. Support ghosts being random is another point popping up.

 

[shapular]

People have gotten so obsessed with the page 1 thing that they've forgotten that there are perfectly fine stages on page 2. Notably, page 2 features common vBrawl counterpicks Frigate Orpheon and Delfino Plaza, the latter of which is never banned. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar also appear here, both of which are banned only because of Meta Knight, which isn't as much of a problem in PM. Yoshi's Island should definitely be a starter over Dreamland. Dreamland is too big to be a starter, and it has a hazard.

 

[MagnesD3]

People have gotten so obsessed with the page 1 thing that they've forgotten that there are perfectly fine stages on page 2. Notably, page 2 features common vBrawl counterpicks Frigate Orpheon and Delfino Plaza, the latter of which is never banned. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar also appear here, both of which are banned only because of Meta Knight, which isn't as much of a problem in PM. Yoshi's Island should definitely be a starter over Dreamland. Dreamland is too big to be a starter, and it has a hazard.

Frigate's hazard is too fast and too deadly and has no real strategic elements to it, Delfino has swimming that I dont think should be in the game at all.

 

[Guilu]

People have gotten so obsessed with the page 1 thing that they've forgotten that there are perfectly fine stages on page 2. Notably, page 2 features common vBrawl counterpicks Frigate Orpheon and Delfino Plaza, the latter of which is never banned. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar also appear here, both of which are banned only because of Meta Knight, which isn't as much of a problem in PM. Yoshi's Island should definitely be a starter over Dreamland. Dreamland is too big to be a starter, and it has a hazard.

I doubt the sincerity of your message, honestly. No amount of Wispy's blowing will ever be worse than the Blargwiches. That and we should aim for diversity in starters, so a big stage is good.

 

[mimgrim]

People have gotten so obsessed with the page 1 thing that they've forgotten that there are perfectly fine stages on page 2. Notably, page 2 features common vBrawl counterpicks Frigate Orpheon and Delfino Plaza, the latter of which is never banned. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar also appear here, both of which are banned only because of Meta Knight, which isn't as much of a problem in PM. Yoshi's Island should definitely be a starter over Dreamland. Dreamland is too big to be a starter, and it has a hazard.

Delfino was banned in Apex 2014 for Brawl FYI.

 

[Kankato]

If I may throw my hat into the ring, I'd like to request a larger stage for the CP row. Right now Dreamland is the only large stage in the tourney legal set (Idk how big YI is), while we have four smaller stages in YS, FoD, WW & GHZ.

Dracula's Castle is a bit too big for my tastes, as characters like Peach, Jiggs, Mario, Ike, etc. live way too long with those astronomical blast lines. Otherwise, I really like the platform game on DC. It's deterministic yet dynamic.

Anyways, RF is the worst stage imo. You want to talk about Runaway play? Try playing against a team with any combination of Fox, Sonic and Pit. They will never let you touch them, especially if you play a slower character like Ganon or Bowser. Please keep it banned, even in doubles.

 

[ThreeSided]

Stages aren't banned because they are "different" or "weird". They are banned for one of two reasons:

1. They introduce a degree of chance which is deemed too great, thus diminishing the validity of competitive play, or,

2. They give far too great an advantage to certain characters/match ups.

No other reason means anything. If there is a feature that can be "used", then the only reason that it might be ban worthy is if one character is able to severely take advantage of it over another. Otherwise, it's just the more skilled player who will more effectively be able to use it if at all, which is exactly what the point of competitive play is. That being said, ever since stage banning became a thing (as in the in-match tournament sort, not the type we're discussing atm), the latter of the two reasons hasn't been as big of a deal. So long as there aren't too many stages which heavily shift a match up, a good player will know to ban those stages, a skill that is part of match up knowledge and is already considered an important skill for the game.

The claw introduced a degree of randomness, in that it would target a player at random and put a large degree of strain and pressure on that player, giving the other player an advantage. The cannon may choose a player at random to target, but it's incredibly easy to avoid, to the point that you can argue that it could give an advantage to the targeted player in that they get to essentially choose where they want it to go, adding to their zoning ability. This is offset by the fact that your opponent knows exactly a spot that you won't go when the cannon goes off, limiting your options at that moment. The reality is that these are two relatively small advantages, and while you could argue that some characters may be able to take advantage of it more than others, it's not a huge deal and something that could be easily banned out if it really bothered you that much.