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Leffen a 6th God in melee
- Thread starter Mystic Dragon
- Start date
m0ll0y
Smash Cadet
m0ll0y
Smash Cadet
Darklink401
Smash Master
Fair enough.
Leffen, we're waiting for you.
Leffen, we're waiting for you.
HolyHam
Smash Rookie
I feel Leffen is the king of the demi-gods, he can beat everyone else, yet can't beat the top 5. If he can prove himself, and consistently beat the top 5 several times and win some big tournaments (other gods present), then he will earn his place as the 6th god.
RWB
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2006
- Messages
- 969
Leffen vs the Gods:
Hbox: 2-0(I believe, not counting exhibition matches and such)
Armada: I know he has a losing score vs Armada, but as time has gone on, he's lost less and less, and he still has taken at least 8 sets of the guy in tournaments. This year, in fact, him vs Armada is 3-1 in sets.
Mango: 2-2, Leffen has the match advantage 10-9, and has won both their last encounters.
PPMD: Leffen PPMD is 2-1 PPMD, I believe.
M2K: 1-5, his only big stumbling block, but hey, M2K had a similar problem with Armada(only much worse, finally beating him in 2014... once).
Also, in said 13 months, total won sets(AND losses) for all 6 against eachother, according to Melee it on Me for 2014 and our current three tournaments in 2015:
Mango: 25-18
Armada: 31-21
PPMD: 12-6
M2K: 18-28
Hbox: 10-18
Leffen: 14-20
For fun, let's subtract all Armada's matches lol(him and leffen play eachother so much the results end up weird lol).
Mango: 19-11
PPMD: 9-4
M2K: 17-22
Hbox: 6-15
Leffen: 6-9
Interesting, innit?
Also, "Can't beat the Top 5" in matches...
He's got the lead vs Mango(Equal in sets, better match total).
He loses to Armada in total, but has still won 8 sets against the guy(lost 11).
He has a notable lead on Hbox.
He loses hard vs M2K
Loses slightly to PPMD.
Comparatively, during the same period:
Hungrybox...
Loses HAAAAAAARD to Mango(Worse than Leffen vs M2K, btw. The second worst god vs god lifetime matchup).
Beats PPMD just slightly
Loses to Leffen by quite a bit.
Loses to Armada slightly.
Goes even with M2K.
M2K
Loses as Hard to Armada as Leffen does to him(statwise, if we go by overall performance vs Armada over his career, this is the most onesided God vs God of all- Armada manhandles M2K).
Crushes Leffen
Loses to PPMD, by quite a bit
Loses to Mango more than leffen does vs Armada
Goes even with Hbox
Mango:
Loses ever so slightly vs Leffen
Loses to Armada(6-8, compare with Leffen's 8-11)
Loses to PPMD, slightly
Crushes Hbox
Beats M2K by quite a bit.
Loses to as many people as Leffen, but closer overall, and more dominant where he wins.
PPMD:
Wins over Leffen, slightly (2-1)
Wins over Mango, slightly (2-1)
Wins over Armada, slightly (3-2)
Wins over M2K, handily (5-1)
Loses to Hbox, slightly (0-1)
Armada:
Wins over Leffen, by a fair bit (11-8)
Wins over Mango, by a bit (8-6)
Wins over M2K, by far(1-6, only one loss ever)
Wins over Hungrybox, slightly (4-3)
Loses to PPMD(2-3)
Gods vs God:
Armada, PPMD: Positive records vs 4 gods
Leffen, Mango: Positive records vs 2 gods.
Hbox, M2K: Positive records vs 1 god, even with another
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ObdurateMARio
Smash Apprentice
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
People have been calling the better players god...
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Haven't they always, ever since the 5 Gods?People have been calling the better players god...
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HolyHam
Smash Rookie
Wow I never looked into it that far. Your in-depth analysis is very convincing, and it has changed my mind a bit. I realized Leffen was good, but not that good. Considering what you've said, I would rank him on par with top 5, earning him the place of god 6. Thanks for the insightful post.
Darklink401
Smash Master
He's placed, recently, much more consistently than the other 'demi-gods' such as Axe and Westballz, though I remember Axe also playing always like top 8.
dfrogman
Smash Cadet
it may be fair to hold leffen to "not a god till u win a major" if only because that was more or less his main criticism of chillindude -- never having won anything, particularly the tournament he beat ken at
Miketastic5
Smash Cadet
Leffen is actually 9-9 against Mango, they are totally even.
2-2 in sets Mango won his 3-2 and 3-1, Leffen 3-2 and 3-1. It equals 9-9 total.
Also, lifetime results show Hungrybox down 2-3 vs. Leffen, not 0-2, though I understand if you are only including 2014 onward.
2-2 in sets Mango won his 3-2 and 3-1, Leffen 3-2 and 3-1. It equals 9-9 total.
Also, lifetime results show Hungrybox down 2-3 vs. Leffen, not 0-2, though I understand if you are only including 2014 onward.
RWB
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2006
- Messages
- 969
Ah, seems I misremembered Mango vs Leffen, I thought it was 3-2, 3-2, 2-3, 1-3
And yeah, I was working with 2014+15.
Also, it's worth noting that while Leffen has beaten Hungrybox in tournament sets, that does exclude MMs and exhibition matches(both of which Hbox has won vs Leffen!).
Miketastic5
Smash Cadet
I believe Leffen has beaten Hbox 3-1 in a money match, but the rest Hbox has definitely won. I assume it might just be the tourney nerves of it, or maybe just Leffen thrives on a tourney stage, could really be either one.
Leffen is really impressive, no doubt Top 6, I personally put him at a solid #4 and maybe even #3 at this point.
Darklink401
Smash Master
He has a weakness to M2k, but compared to the other players, he might be above him.
Leffen isn't really one of the gods at smash. He likes being called an "anti god" or "godslayer". Even if Leffen was number one, he wouldn't be a god, still a godslayer. What would be pretty cool is if four other players who got really good and beat some of the gods consistently were also called anti gods (Hax, Westballz, Axe,Lucky). Just a thought. The five gods vs. the five anti gods.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
And then Amsa is just the other guy that beats them somehow with a freaking Yoshi.
Darklink401
Smash Master
He HAS been beating the other gods consistently enough tho.
in my worthless opinon because I just feel like writing this down
1-2: Leffen, Armada
3-4: Mango, PPMD
5: HBox
6: M2k
M2k is definetly still good but not on the others level either. Hell he was recently even beaten by Wobbles (then in classic m2k fashion went on twitter to complain about the ICs matchup lol)
1-2: Leffen, Armada
3-4: Mango, PPMD
5: HBox
6: M2k
M2k is definetly still good but not on the others level either. Hell he was recently even beaten by Wobbles (then in classic m2k fashion went on twitter to complain about the ICs matchup lol)
monzer
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 27, 2015
- Messages
- 296
That's why I would consider him a minor god. He can beat the gods consistently, but he hasn't been dong it long enough to really be considered a god. At the rate he's going he will eventually become a god, just not right now.
pagedMov
Smash Apprentice
he's still 0 for 2 against Plup's Samus lol
Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
I'd say current skill level puts him right up there with Armada, Mango and PP. He won three majors in a row very recently. How are you gonna say he's "not as good as the gods themselves." Sure he hasn't been doing it for as long, but if you really look at skill then Leffen is there. And how many majors has Hbox won exactly?
monzer
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 27, 2015
- Messages
- 296
If he continues on his current path, he will be a god, but right now I'm still not sure. The thing is, Leften hasn't been playing for as long as the 5 current "official" gods, so maybe they just aren't familiar with his play style yet.
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Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
You can argue that, but when will you be convinced that he is at their level? One of the problems in my opinion is that the term godhood as it was first used is now pretty much dead. Armada is pretty much the only one who doesn't really drop sets to non top six players (I think he has lost once to Silent Specter and maybe to Amsah post Gensis 1), and you might count PP in here too but he has dropped more in the past and plays much less.
And if anyone isn't familiar with Leffen's play style it's just because he continues to adapt and improve, the man has actually been playing for years with very many high level sets to analyze and he streams like 4 hours a day too.
EDIT:
The main point of this is how do you define a god exactly?
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Darklink401
Smash Master
M2k and HBox, IMO are underrated.
M2k did almost beat Leffen and Mango recently, despite his hands hurting severely.
That being said, Hbox has beaten Leffen AND mango, so I cant really argue he's below M2k XD
monzer
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 27, 2015
- Messages
- 296
If he places high in 3 more tournaments, beating gods, then that would probably be enough. There are a lot of good smash players who started out very very high in tournaments, but soon fell in rankings as time whent on and only stayed "good" for a few months to a year.
Darklink401
Smash Master
I'll say this right now, if Leffen keeps his wins over Armada consistent, he is simply going to be the best player in the world.
I don't consider him a god, I consider him part of a new generation. The only God that isn't having some form of issue is Armada....XD
ThePuffDaddy
Smash Apprentice
What exactly defines godmanship? He has proven to be on the level of the other gods and has been beating them time and time again. If leffen isn't a god then tbh m2k shouldn't be one either. I'm not discrediting m2k's skill either, its just he almost always placed the worst out of all the gods ay majors, and now with his hands hurting more, I don't see him winning a major anytime soon, If ever again. Btw I'm a huge fan of m2k I'm just speaking the truth. PP only became a god in 2011, so why cant we add on some more if they fit the requirements? And if there is a new generation of gods, Plup and Leffen are definitely in there.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Mark my words. PP and Plup will be indisputably on top in one year.
Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
I think at the very moment it's much harder to argue Plup than Leffen because there are top level players he has yet to beat and he has never won a major.
But yeah, I don't think you should be calling m2k a god if Leffen isn't one. I just think a lot of people weigh past glories more heavily than recent success which is pretty backwards when we are talking about the current best players.
To respond to @
monzer
I don't think requiring Leffen to place highly at three more majors is too unreasonable, but I bet there are a lot of people who still wouldn't be impressed even if he won the next three big events he went to.
ThePuffDaddy
Smash Apprentice
idk I feel like a lot of people don't accept leffen as a god because well... He's not exactly a fan favorite lol.
Plunder
Smash Ace
You can't lose consistently to non-Gods and much lower tier mains and be considered a God. Honestly Axe is more consistent and worthy of the title; considering his ability to adapt within a set, his track record, and single-highhandedly developing the meta for Pikachu. He may not have as many wins on the Gods (no doubt a side effect of using Pikachu), but outside of the Gods he's more consistent across all the MUs. His Falco is scary fast and technical, I would say his Falco could give the Gods a run for their money right now.
M2K - even if he were objectively worse than Leffen right now, still retains his God status and always will. He was early enough to be a significant part of the development of Melee and forcecd others to rise to their greatness and by extension push the meta further. Leffen will never be able to claim such a thing nor do I see it in his future.
Also M2K doesn't consistently lose to the same people over and over again, especially lower tier mains. AmSa is the only outlier really. Beat him in a very close set, then he sand bagged their SS. I have no doubt that he's already downloaded AmSa and could easily beat him now. There aren't really any other instances of him having a worse loss-win record against any non-Gods compared to the other Gods that I'm aware of.
Let's not even mention all that he did for the very early technical Melee scene with all the raw data and information he compiled and researched.
M2K - even if he were objectively worse than Leffen right now, still retains his God status and always will. He was early enough to be a significant part of the development of Melee and forcecd others to rise to their greatness and by extension push the meta further. Leffen will never be able to claim such a thing nor do I see it in his future.
Also M2K doesn't consistently lose to the same people over and over again, especially lower tier mains. AmSa is the only outlier really. Beat him in a very close set, then he sand bagged their SS. I have no doubt that he's already downloaded AmSa and could easily beat him now. There aren't really any other instances of him having a worse loss-win record against any non-Gods compared to the other Gods that I'm aware of.
Let's not even mention all that he did for the very early technical Melee scene with all the raw data and information he compiled and researched.
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RWB
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2006
- Messages
- 969
Says who? Also, losing consistently to non-gods? Are you referring to Plup, who beat Mango at Evo and was last hit, last stock vs Mango just before that(and by both Mango and Leffen's admission, Plup should've won that)?
Leffen has much more consistent results than Axe. Also, Leffen remodeled the Fox meta.
Yeah, Leffen has 20+ sets on the gods. Axe hasn't even beaten all of them in the first place, and hasn't won even 10 sets. This is not close. Leffen is on a whole other level than Axe.
Please go ahead and prove how he is even comparable to Leffen in results these days. Or even in the God matchups(Hbox and Armada are nigh unwinnable, he loses to PPMD and Mango most of the time, and Leffen has recently taken the upper hand as well).
Also, fun fact considering you arguing Axe over Leffen- M2K beats Axe in results. He loses bigtime to Leffen.
Hbox and Armada has something like 15-1 on M2K. He loses significantly more consistently to other gods than ANY of the gods.
...Wobbles has something like a 5-2 on him, and M2K has recently reached out for help on the Ice Climber matcup because he by his own admission has no way to handle it.
Also, the only non-god giving Leffen any consistent issues right now is Plup, who has started being argued as the best player outside the gods over Axe. But Plup is doing that to Mango as well.
I agree that M2K's past feats will keep him a 'God'. But he's blatantly weaker than Leffen as a player these days(and clearly the weakest in the Top 6).
Leffen is easily qualified for the God title if it's just about player skill. It's all about what esle you include in the term.[/quote]
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Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
As far as I recall Leffen has only had recent losses to Samus (Hugs/Plup), one loss to Axe , and a loss to Sfat. In the same time frame Mango has lost to Westballz Axe Plup and I believe one to Fiction but he may have used Falcon, M2K has lost to Shroomed Wobbles and Axe, and Hbox has lost to Wizzy Plup PPU Westballz and maybe more. That's a total "unexpected" set loss of 5 for Leffen, 5-6 for Mango, 6 for M2K, and more than 4 for Hbox (he lost a lot to Plup I think but I don't know how much). The only "gods" who haven't dropped sets are Armada and PP, and PP has only been to two events this year.
Not only that, but if you count set wins to other "gods" then Leffen is doing much, much better than M2K. I think M2K only has one win over Leffen at Paragon and that's all he has taken this year.
And if you want to count tournament wins Leffen has won three American majors and M2K has won absolutely none.
If you don't want to call Leffen a god because it's more of an era thing that is perfectly okay, but you can't argue that his skill level is not right up there with the other top players.
EDIT:
I've edited this a few times for better accuracy.
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Plunder
Smash Ace
Opinions......they're everywhere.
I now bow down to Leffen; the new God, his fake personality and hypocritical persona are truly something magnificent to behold. I cannot wait for his next drama queen twitter post or for his next beatdown at the hands of a random mid tier. His dominance of.....a whole 2 months....was quite amazing and awe inspiring.
The Gods themselves think the misnomer "God" is an idiotic term anyways. But hey, to each their own. If you guys want to argue about it and waste your time, have at it.
I now bow down to Leffen; the new God, his fake personality and hypocritical persona are truly something magnificent to behold. I cannot wait for his next drama queen twitter post or for his next beatdown at the hands of a random mid tier. His dominance of.....a whole 2 months....was quite amazing and awe inspiring.
The Gods themselves think the misnomer "God" is an idiotic term anyways. But hey, to each their own. If you guys want to argue about it and waste your time, have at it.
RWB
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2006
- Messages
- 969
Armada is just scary. Still no losses to non-gods since 2010.
You don't have to like the guy. Noone is expecting you to. I personally dislike Mango, but that doesn't mean I'll rate his skill lower than it is.
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Dolla Pills
Smash Ace
Set counts and tournament placings are not opinions. If you don't like Leffen because of who he is that's your opinion and your right to have that opinion, but you can't deny that he is a top level player because of that. Personally I don't use the term "god" at all when I describe players unless I'm debunking other people's logic, but I will say that Leffen is currently at the top level of Melee.
EDIT:
Also I went ahead and formed some more "opinions" regarding tournament placings.
So I wanted to make a list of a few tourney placement related stats in relation to Leffen, and here is what I came up with.
Tournaments where top six have outplaced Leffen this year (excluding Armada cause I don’t know about all the European ones and I think he probably has the most anyway):
HBox: Paragon, Sandstorm, Press Start, Evo
Mango: I’m Not Yelling, Press Start, BAM 7
M2K: Paragon, Press Start
PP: Apex, Evo
Now where Leffen has outplaced the others:
Mango: BEAST V, Apex, CEO, WTFox
HBox: Apex, CEO, FC
M2K: Apex, Sandstorm if you count it, WTFox
PP: none
So that makes Leffen seem slightly outclassed by HBox and PP, but let’s take a look at tournaments won with other top 6 in attendance this year:
Leffen: BEAST V, CEO, FC, WTFox
Mango: Press Start, BAM 7
PP: Apex
Hbox: Paragon
M2K: none
So Leffen is outclassing everyone there except for Armada and you could argue PP, but let’s not really go there. Leffen only did poorly at Press Start (9th) and slightly underperformed at Sandstorm and Evo (fifth place, tied with Mango). If anyone wants to correct me or add the data with Armada that would be nice.
Anyway, the big point of all this is to present data that shows that for the entire year Leffen has been performing at top level with only one really fudged performance. Not only that, but Leffen has entered a lot of tournaments with other top 6 talent unlike certain other players (M2K, PP). So that’s a bit more consistent than “two months of domination and losing to random mid tiers” to me.
Tournaments where top six have outplaced Leffen this year (excluding Armada cause I don’t know about all the European ones and I think he probably has the most anyway):
HBox: Paragon, Sandstorm, Press Start, Evo
Mango: I’m Not Yelling, Press Start, BAM 7
M2K: Paragon, Press Start
PP: Apex, Evo
Now where Leffen has outplaced the others:
Mango: BEAST V, Apex, CEO, WTFox
HBox: Apex, CEO, FC
M2K: Apex, Sandstorm if you count it, WTFox
PP: none
So that makes Leffen seem slightly outclassed by HBox and PP, but let’s take a look at tournaments won with other top 6 in attendance this year:
Leffen: BEAST V, CEO, FC, WTFox
Mango: Press Start, BAM 7
PP: Apex
Hbox: Paragon
M2K: none
So Leffen is outclassing everyone there except for Armada and you could argue PP, but let’s not really go there. Leffen only did poorly at Press Start (9th) and slightly underperformed at Sandstorm and Evo (fifth place, tied with Mango). If anyone wants to correct me or add the data with Armada that would be nice.
Anyway, the big point of all this is to present data that shows that for the entire year Leffen has been performing at top level with only one really fudged performance. Not only that, but Leffen has entered a lot of tournaments with other top 6 talent unlike certain other players (M2K, PP). So that’s a bit more consistent than “two months of domination and losing to random mid tiers” to me.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I can't stand the term "gods"..... it's just not accurate considering how beatable they all are (as demonstrated by other "gods" and "god slayers" time and time again). I believe now there is a top 7 because of plup, and axe is a baby tier below this top 7 and possibly is the only player at this specific tier. I don't care about Plup not having the same amount of wins as the other "gods". He is on their level.
Standard double elimination brackets are **** for finding out who the best player is. The only way you can minimize inaccuracy is through accurate seeding. This doesn't negate the importance of tournament placings by any means, but it can't be neglected. A deep and extensive understanding of melee is imperative to ranking top level players.
Standard double elimination brackets are **** for finding out who the best player is. The only way you can minimize inaccuracy is through accurate seeding. This doesn't negate the importance of tournament placings by any means, but it can't be neglected. A deep and extensive understanding of melee is imperative to ranking top level players.
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