Ledgetechs

[elvenarrow3000]

Okay, so I've been practicing ledgeteching on Final Destination with motion mines. I can do it just fine with ASDI (up+B then DI'ing into the stage and hitting R before hitting the mine) on the first two hits (28% and 58%) but I can't seem to do it on the third hit onwards.

I've tried it multiple times so I'm fairly sure it's not human error. I can't figure out why I can't do it though. Since I'm using ASDI, it shouldn't matter what percent I'm at, as the teching should happen before I even start flying away. The timing of the tech also shouldn't matter, as hitstun stays constant, since the damage from the mine is always 28%. I'm at a loss. Why isn't it working?

 

[MarsFool!]

Are you hitting the mine at the exact same spot every time? This might change the timing of the tech.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, I roll to the edge and dthrow them every time, and also Dolphin Slash from the same position every time. The hitstun from the mine is eleven frames and Dolphin Slash rises until frame ten, which means unless I'm hitting R the same frame I use Dolphin Slash (which I'm not), the tech timing shouldn't be off either.

I think the problem lies with the ASDI - I don't get the green impact splash thing when I get hit the third time at 86%, and thus I wouldn't be able to tech. So... why am I unable to ASDI into the stage past a certain point?

 

[HiIH]

Personally I don't use ASDI. The timing is pretty simple, if you remember that you have the ten frames to tech, so if you know when you're going to get hit, you can just jam the stick to the right, and hit your tech button right before you get hit.

<.<; I learned the hard way without mines, btw.

 

[AIDS]

Teching is normally easyer at higher %'s, i never enjoyed using ms bombs to practise teaching.
The one thing i did was practise always attempting, cause if you press up B and don't get hit, the attempt to tech will have no effect over all, no air dodge or anything.

i would sugest this cause it is what i did and now im pretty **** good at teching, ms bomb training makes you expect it, i don't know why you find it harder at higher %, i would have to try, but for over all tech higher % = easyer to time.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

@ HiIH

It sounds like you're using ASDI to tech, maybe a little SDI. And... teching is twenty frames.

 

[MeHo]

At higher percents you need to Smash DI into the wall instead of ASDI into it.

Taken from the DI Guide.

How Smash DI helps edge teching :

When you get hit near the edge, for example by Marth's f-smash, your trajectory don't send you into the wall at all.
At middle %, a simple ASDI towards the stage will make you hit the wall, as long as you aren't sent away too fast. It works just like how ASDIing down makes you stay grounded .

However, at higher %age, this won't be enough. Moreover, the more damage you get from the hit, the longer you'll stay in hitlag before you tech, which means a more difficult timing for pressing L, because those hitlag frames are removed from the 20 frames window for the tech.

Now, if you learn to press L and do a Smash DI around 15-20 frames later, the tech will be guaranteed :
Instead of waiting for hitlag to end and use ASDI to touch the wall, the hitlag will transfer into teching the moment you did the smash DI.
This is very easy : Press L, then slam the stick towards the stage. Regardless of what your opponent is doing, it'll most likely work.

As to what happens afterwards, the moment when you tech doesn't matter, everything will be as if you only teched at the end of the hitlag : you will start moving again at the end of the hitlag and you'll still have invincibility frames then.
I think that using smash DI also makes wall-jumping easier since you have more time (the remaining hitlag frames) to press up on the control stick.

 

[HiIH]

ASDI is with the Cstick. In other words it's just holding the Cstick as you go up in your Up+B.

Thats what I understood anyway. Whatever I do it works unless my timing is off, so (shrug)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

At higher percents you need to Smash DI into the wall instead of ASDI into it.

Taken from the DI Guide.

How Smash DI helps edge teching :

When you get hit near the edge, for example by Marth's f-smash, your trajectory don't send you into the wall at all.
At middle %, a simple ASDI towards the stage will make you hit the wall, as long as you aren't sent away too fast. It works just like how ASDIing down makes you stay grounded .

However, at higher %age, this won't be enough. Moreover, the more damage you get from the hit, the longer you'll stay in hitlag before you tech, which means a more difficult timing for pressing L, because those hitlag frames are removed from the 20 frames window for the tech.

Now, if you learn to press L and do a Smash DI around 15-20 frames later, the tech will be guaranteed :
Instead of waiting for hitlag to end and use ASDI to touch the wall, the hitlag will transfer into teching the moment you did the smash DI.
This is very easy : Press L, then slam the stick towards the stage. Regardless of what your opponent is doing, it'll most likely work.

As to what happens afterwards, the moment when you tech doesn't matter, everything will be as if you only teched at the end of the hitlag : you will start moving again at the end of the hitlag and you'll still have invincibility frames then.
I think that using smash DI also makes wall-jumping easier since you have more time (the remaining hitlag frames) to press up on the control stick.

Yeah, I read that, but according to Scotu, the formula for hitstun is 2+damage/3, damage being the amount of damage that the attack does, so technically, hitstun shouldn't change at all. And since you don't go flying away until after hitstun ends and ASDI takes place immediately after hitstun ends, ASDI seems like it should always work.

ASDI is with the Cstick. In other words it's just holding the Cstick as you go up in your Up+B.

Thats what I understood anyway. Whatever I do it works unless my timing is off, so (shrug)

I thought ASDI could be done with either stick, just that the C-stick took priority over the analog stick?

 

[Falcinho]

Yeah you can also ASDI with the control stick but usually the c-stick is the better option.

I myself still don't know exactly why you can't tech everything with ASDI (when you're close to the stage),
but i think it has to do sth with the knockback of the attack that hits you.
I can tech almost every usual dsmash edgeguard with ASDI, but when it comes to moves like Marth's fsmash, i have to SDI to be able to tech.

So i don't know why this is, but you really should try to SDI those bombs and fsmashes

 

[HiIH]

I think it's something about precision of smash DI. Like ASDI is using Smash DI every few frames, and is less specific that regular Smash DI.

If that makes sense.

 

[Falcinho]

What?
ASDI isn't "using SDI every few frames"... that would be multiple SDI.
For ASDI you just hold the controlstick/c-stick while you are hit.
For SDI you ... smash the stick.

and only with SDI you can move while being hit
ASDI und regular DI only influence your trajectory afaik

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Errr... according to Doraki's guide on DI, ASDI stands for Automatic Smash DI. It's basically SDI, but it's got half the effect and only occurs on the last frame of hitstun. It doesn't affect your trajectory at all, like SDI, it only affects your starting position. It's also the only kind of DI you can use to tech off the ground, as SDI only works on ceiling and walls.

 

[Falcinho]

ok I reread the thread now:

"The ASDI is exactly like Smash DI except that it goes less far, and you don't see it very well because you're sent flying at the same time."

Youre rite, I somehow forgot this, but on the other hand it proves my point even better: ASDI probably just doesn't move you far enough to tech.
SDI such things like Marth's fsmash or bombs ^_^

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, that's what I've switched to doing, but I was more looking for a reason why ASDI stopped working after a while. It's at the end of hitstun, before you start flying away, so in theory, you should always end up in the same place, regardless of damage.

 

[Falcinho]

Yeah that's a mistery =/

Only m2k knows

 

[HiIH]

ah, totally misunderstood what the Cstick did during di. Not exactly sure why I thought that.

Maybe I'm just kind of stupid. <.<

 

[IrArby]

So in order to ledgetech consistently you have to (as Marth) upB, tech during the 20 frame window, and SDI right after into the stage? Also, what direction do I SDI? Can I simply just push it horizontally or does it need to be down a bit? I know that holding it higher than horizontal makes you wall jump cause I've managed that one a few times.

Man do I suck at ledgeteching! Thanks for help in advance.

 

[Falcinho]

Towards the ledge...

If you for example didn't sweetspot but ur opponent ccs and then dsmashes you or sth SDI towards the stage and down.