Ledgedash Frame Data

[dashdancedan]

I was doing some research on how many invincible actionable frames characters have from ledgedash and I thought I'd share my findings so far.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...R1RlJRMU1Nd2prcVBMRHdORFE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

It's hard to get a clean ledgedash with Sheik using 1st available rejump frame from ledge drop, but I think it's pretty close to optimized.


Also here's a video kind of demoing how I did my research.

 

[Kadano]

Just a few tips:
1. Use ECB visibility so that you can tell whether wavelanding is possible. Press R+↓ a few times until you see the ECBs. It’s best to use this with hitbubble visibility set to 1 (no character skins) so that nothing is overlayed over the ECBs.

2. Account for different pre-ledgegrab body states, which alter your ECB and heavily affect the timings for some characters (Fox, Falco, Sheik and Ganondorf are the ones where I already confirmed this behavior, but I’m sure there are more).

3. For optimal ledgedash, there usually isn’t a single airdodge frame. You go from JumpAerialF directly to LandingFallSpecial. The latter is 10 frames, btw. Your total airdodge / waveland frames amount to 11, which is one too many.

 

[dashdancedan]

Ah yeah ECB makes for less airdodge trial and error. Yeah I've been trying to get go straight from airdodge to lfs, hence the 0 airdodge frames on some of the characters, but I haven't been able to do it with fox and sheik yet. This is from a few hours of research, so I'm sure I'll go back and try to optimize and try different variations of ledgedash. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Pengie]

Are you sure Fox's is right? I thought he got 16 actionable frames not 13. Also if he gets 13 that means that I'm usually only off on doing perfect ledgedashes by one frame which doesn't exactly sound right to me, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that was the case.

 

[dashdancedan]

I can clear the ledge with a horizontal airdodge on frame 1 instead of 2, and if I get a clean lfs from airdodge that would give 15 actionable frames, but I haven't been able to do that yet.

 

[Sashimi]

Very neat.

I've already tested Yoshi's and it's +2 (but luckily he has a platform cancel which is +8). If you manage to get more, please let me know!

 

[Kadano]

Copied from the post in my thread:
Grounded actionable intangibility from the ledge (gaInt)
╔════════════════╤═╤══╤══╤══╤══╗
║Character ......│E│OL│PL│LL│AI║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢
║Zelda ..........│N│ 2│..│..│..║
║Sheik ..........│Y│ 8│12│..│..║
║Popo ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Nana ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Captain Falcon .│Y│10│11│17│15║
║Young Link .....│N│12│..│..│..║
║Donkey Kong ....│N│ 7│..│..│..║
║Doctor Mario ...│Y│14│..│..│..║
║Falco ..........│Y│14│15│..│..║
║Fox ............│Y│15│16│..│..║
║Kirby ..........│N│12│..│..│..║
║Bowser .........│N│ 8│..│..│..║
║Link ...........│Y│ 9│12│..│..║
║Luigi ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Mario ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Marth ..........│N│ 4│..│ 1│..║
║Mewtwo .........│N│ 1│..│..│..║
║Ness ...........│N│ 4│..│..│..║
║Peach ..........│N│..│..│..│..║
║Pichu ..........│Y│15│16│..│..║
║Pikachu ........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Jigglypuff .....│N│ 9│..│..│..║
║Samus ..........│N│ 4│..│..│11║
║Yoshi ..........│N│ 2│..│..│ 8║
║Mr. Game&Watch .│N│ 9│..│ 6│..║
║Ganondorf ......│.│ 4│ 9│18│..║
║Roy ............│N│ 5│..│..│..║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢
║Giga Bowser ....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Master Hand ....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Crazy Hand .....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Male Wireframe .│Y│ 8│ 9│..│..║
║Female Wireframe│N│ 5│..│..│..║
║Sandbag ........│.│..│..│..│..║
╚════════════════╧═╧═══════════╝
E = ECB manipulation-abuse possible Yes/No (applied for OL only if the execution is managable/realistic; always applied for PL)
OL = Optimal ledgedash (hard to do frame-perfect, but possible)
PL = Perfect ledgedash (TAS-realm – requires a weird setup and/or tricky timing)
LL = Lagless landing aka no-impact landing (requires a very specific setup usually)
AI = Aerial Interrupt

These values are for FD. Other stages, especially YS and FoD, probably have slightly different values.

Very neat.

I've already tested Yoshi's and it's +2 (but luckily he has a platform cancel which is +8). If you manage to get more, please let me know!

How does this platform cancel work frame by frame? I didn’t find it.

 

[dashdancedan]

What angle do you use for Fox's airdodge for the perfect ledgedash? like the X and Y coordinates via TAS input if that's what you use.

 

[Sashimi]

How does this platform cancel work frame by frame? I didn’t find it.

Reading your post (which is awesome), it might be what you called "aerial interrupt." If I'm using the wrong term, please correct me. I called it platform cancel because it seems to be the same mechanic that allows Yoshi to land while rising through platforms.

Spoiler

1 Grab Ledge
9 Let go
10 Double Jump forward
11 (hold forward)
26 Aerial [Land]
38 [Vulnerable]

Here's a gif with invincible Dsmash (hits on frame 6 of the intangibility)

 

[Kadano]

What angle do you use for Fox's airdodge for the perfect ledgedash? like the X and Y coordinates via TAS input if that's what you use.

See the OP of this thread for specifics about the necessary ECB manipulation and this post for the angles that work (blue area). I usually use Y = 99 at maximum horizontal distance from neutral when I’m using a real GCC for inputs.

@ Sashimi : Thanks, I don’t understand yet why you landed after JumpAerialF 16, but I’ll recreate the situation until I find out.

Edit: Okay, you can aerial interrupt with any aerial and only after JumpAerialF 15. Thanks, I’ll add it to the list.

By the way, so far I’ve understood the naming convention for these things to be:
Platform cancel = fall through a platform, do an aerial and abuse hitlag and the delayed ECB re-alignment to land on the same platform again.

Aerial interrupt = land on a platform before the apex of your jump by doing an aerial that has early IASA and moves the ECB downward (enough to counteract current vertical momentum from the jump) so you only have the standard 4-7 (depending on character) frames of landing lag.

Lagless landing, no-impact landing = land on a platform by abusing ECB re-alignment of your second jump. The new alignment is shifted down considerably so that this shift is greater than the current vertical momentum. This results in only 1 frame of landing lag where the usual dust spikes aren’t visible (hence the name).