Ledge Invincibility

[CT Chia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but atm it's just that we modified the amount of invincibility frames you get from grabbing the ledge right? Then you just do whatever until your frames run out.

Can we whip up a code that makes it so if you let go of the ledge (by pressing back or down) any invincibility frames you have stop?
Keep it the same if a character jumps, attacks, stands up, or rolls from the ledge.

However eliminating ledge invincibility when they let go will heavily combat against camping. Characters will no longer be able to grab the ledge then instantly throw out invincible moves around the ledge, and it will also help with some ledge stalls in the game.

I doubt the code would be hard at all to make, can it be done?

 

[Revven]

The actual plan to stop planking was to set an amount of times someone could grab the ledge like Ike's Aether can only grab the ledge 5 times and then refreshes when you jump back onto the stage or like the tethers where you can only use tethers 3 times in a row until you jump back onto the stage. This way is better and doesn't ruin options from the ledge or make you more vulnerable.

 

[leafgreen386]

Chibo, your idea has been brought up before, and I still hate it. Invincible aerials are used in edgeguarding just as much as they are in planking.

SMK, I also still hate that idea, as it also punishes players for using the ledge properly, not just plankers.

This is the whole reason I came up with the "invincibility bank" idea. Search that term if you wanna see what I'm talking about. It's in some old thread dealing with the ledge invincibility.

 

[Revven]

Chibo, your idea has been brought up before, and I still hate it. Invincible aerials are used in edgeguarding just as much as they are in planking.

SMK, I also still hate that idea, as it also punishes players for using the ledge properly, not just plankers.

This is the whole reason I came up with the "invincibility bank" idea. Search that term if you wanna see what I'm talking about. It's in some old thread dealing with the ledge invincibility.

I already know about your "invincibility bank" idea however, I'd rather like to go for the easier more efficient way to fix the issue rather than have a hard code that'll take time to make. While with my idea, the data is already there, thus it would be as simple as changing it so it affects normal ledge grabs. And besides, as long as it's higher than 2 times for regrabbing then it's fine because not many people grab the ledge more then 2-3 times... and if they do that's their own fault. Besides, it would refresh when you've been knocked away from the ledge and when you step back onto the stage, so it would work very similarly to Ike's Aether and the tethers.

The problem with your idea is that you don't even know it's possible...

 

[leafgreen386]

I already know about your "invincibility bank" idea however, I'd rather like to go for the easier more efficient way to fix the issue rather than have a hard code that'll take time to make. While with my idea, the data is already there, thus it would be as simple as changing it so it affects normal ledge grabs. And besides, as long as it's higher than 2 times for regrabbing then it's fine because not many people grab the ledge more then 2-3 times... and if they do that's their own fault. Besides, it would refresh when you've been knocked away from the ledge and when you step back onto the stage, so it would work very similarly to Ike's Aether and the tethers.

The problem with your idea is that you don't even know it's possible...

Er... tethers don't refresh until you hit the ground. I'd imagine it's the same deal with ike's upB. Granted, I have no idea if the invincibility bank is possible (and if it is it would be extremely hard), but implementing a limit like what exists already in brawl would mean that if you get edgeguarded x number of times, you're done. It'd be a huge buff to characters with good ledge traps (see: marth). If a code was made to restart the counter every time you got hit and then that counter was applied to every character, it would be legit. That's probably the easiest and most optimal way to go about this.

Also, the "search for it" comment was more for our new members who haven't seen the idea, yet. I know you already know about it, which is why I didn't bother explaining it again.

 

[Revven]

No, no I'm pretty sure it refreshes when you jump back onto the stage with Ike and the tethers... otherwise, you'd see Ikes dying if they Aethered the edge five times, ledgehopped back on, hugged the edge, and then did another Aether. Tethers it's the same thing, there's a reason why they do their tether twice and jump back onto the stage with a ledgehopped aerial, and then they could go right back to the edge and do another tether. It refreshes, it wouldn't make any sense if it didn't... (at least when you touch the stage again, not sure about when you get hit, I should look at that).

 

[CT Chia]

What exactly does the current ledge invincibility code do? It says in the description -
"Ledge invuln time at 34 frames to restore to brawl default value due to 11 being shaved off"

How was time shaved off in the first place?

So this just shortens the time overall?

Would it be possible though for someone to whip up the code I described in the first part since it doesn't seem hard to do, and could be cool for testing. I think it could still be a possibility. It does more good than harm.
The problem with the ledge invincibility bank is:
1 - Getting a code that can actually do that (since there is nothing similar to it currently in the game it might be tough to achieve)
2 - The main thing I don't like about it is that it's a value you can't keep track of. I know it's not that much of a problem, but still could be crucial.

 

[Shell]

I'd have to see silly moves like flamethrower and the chain whip fixed before I'd even consider removing "let-go" invincibility. Not to mention the points Leaf brought up.

 

[Revven]

What exactly does the current ledge invincibility code do? It says in the description -
"Ledge invuln time at 34 frames to restore to brawl default value due to 11 being shaved off"

How was time shaved off in the first place?

Lagless ledges. Basically, here's the rundown:

Originally we had a code where if you pressed back, it canceled the ledge lag. This had some weird effects to the game (I don't really remember what but, it felt odd for the most part). This didn't do anything to the ledge's invinc frames. Later, we decided to ask PW to whip of the uglier version of the code where all he did was speed up the frames for when you grab the ledge, which also affected the invinc. We set it to x4 I think.... (might be x2) and that cut the invinc frames by a lot. shanus raised the value up to a good time of invinc but, not as much as Brawl (as Brawl had A LOT of invinc frames). It isn't as less as before and it's also not as much as Brawl. It's a perfect medium.

Also, Chibo, your idea hurts character's ledgehops. The reason shanus even raised invinc was so ledgehopping was a little safer and you weren't knocked off the edge as soon as you let go and tried jumping onto the stage... your idea would basically make what shanus did pointless lol.

Edit: Shell, Cape posted fixes for the Flamethrowers, go test them yourself to see if they are fixed.

 

[The Cape]

Shell, I have a fix for the flamethrowers which may help to fix them.

I can do the chain next if its a popular idea.

 

[leafgreen386]

No, no I'm pretty sure it refreshes when you jump back onto the stage with Ike and the tethers... otherwise, you'd see Ikes dying if they Aethered the edge five times, ledgehopped back on, hugged the edge, and then did another Aether. Tethers it's the same thing, there's a reason why they do their tether twice and jump back onto the stage with a ledgehopped aerial, and then they could go right back to the edge and do another tether. It refreshes, it wouldn't make any sense if it didn't... (at least when you touch the stage again, not sure about when you get hit, I should look at that).

Er... tethers don't refresh until you hit the ground.

*cough*

I'm aware of everything you stated. I know for a fact that tethers will only refresh upon landing on the stage. In early vbrawl, I remember dying many times due to trying to tether after my three uses were up, while being edgeguarded, and not understanding why it didn't work, and then falling like an idiot to my death. If you wanted to use this mechanic, you'd have to make it so they also refresh upon getting hit, as otherwise you could end up ruining legit use of the ledge.

Although I am now very confused as to why we were able to edit invincibility frames with the frame speed mod for the ledge, but when we try to edit moves with invincibility, the invincibility remains in place... something's not right there.

As for the flamethrowers... you added more base, right? Because a higher angle didn't "fix" anything. If anything, it was a buff.

 

[Revven]

Yes base leaf, BASE. Go to the Character Discussion thread in the character specific forums back here to see alll of what Cape has fixed (jabs, flamethrowers, some buffs for Yoshi). It all needs to be tested by another person and thrown into the next WBR set.