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Ledge Chain-grabbing / The Handoff FAQ

Discussion in 'Ice Climbers' started by Wobbles, Jan 17, 2009.

  1. Wobbles

    Wobbles
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    Desert Eskimo

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    Hey folks. Given the escapability of d-throw d-air and the prolific banning of the infinite, I figured I'd create a thread devoted exclusively to detailing this CG and answering questions about it. I used to call it the ledge CG, but it's easier to refer to it as the handoff, so that's what I'll do from now on. First, here are a few facts about it.

    --I'm confident it works on EVERY character (except Pichu), is almost inescapable, and in most situations can be done from zero to death.

    --Some members of the cast require VERY good timing possibly down to a two or three frame window on the grab.

    --You can do it on platforms, but it's trickier. However, there are ways to cope with that difficulty.

    --It's pretty **** hard and weight specific for each character. Most characters fall into something of a "class" where they share CG timing with others, but in those instances their respective size and floatiness makes it more or less difficult to execute.

    --You should learn this. Period. It won't be banned due to its requirements and high difficulty curve.

    CONTENTS: Just search for the stuff in brackets to find things easier.

    [MTHD] - Method
    [INSC] - Inescapable
    [RMTD] - Room To Do It
    [PLT] - Platforms
    [FNSH] - Finishers
    [WGHT] - Weight Classes
    [CSI] - Character Specific Information
    [OTHR] - Other Stuff

    [MTHD] The Method

    This is how you do it and why it works.

    Nana's throws are completely random except (I believe) in one circumstance. When Nana grabs an opponent near an edge, she will try to throw them off that edge using either b-throw or f-throw.

    If Nana is going to f-throw the opponent, you are (in almost every circumstance) able to grab them before they have a chance to fly anywhere.

    Furthermore, Nana can grab the opponent before they fly anywhere if *you* use d-throw. Time her grab correctly, and she will snatch them out of mid-air.

    Most of you know where I'm headed with this. If you grab the opponent near the edge, you can d-throw and have Nana catch them. If you are facing towards the edge and you are close enough, she will f-throw, allowing you to grab them again. Here it is in list form.

    1) Grab the opponent with Popo near the edge.
    2) Down-throw.
    3) Time Nana's grab so she catches them before they leave the ground.
    4) Wait for her to f-throw, and grab them again.
    5) Repeat steps 2-4 until you can grab-smash them for a KO or you run out of room.

    That's pretty much the basics of it. However, the more I practice the more nuances I find to it, and there are ways to make it more effective.

    [INSC] It is almost completely inescapable.

    The only reasons an opponent can get out of this chaingrab are as follows:

    --You have them at the very edge of the stage where Nana cannot re-grab.
    --They are at a low percent and Nana does not throw them immediately, letting them wiggle out.
    --There is a slope involved that puts you out of re-grab position
    --The level interferes, such as disappearing platforms Rainbow Cruise, rising lava on Brinstar, or Wispy Woods blowing wind on Dreamland 64.
    --You screw up.

    I'll deal with all those as I go into other aspects of it.

    [RMTD] You don't need much room to do it.

    When I first started using the chaingrab, I would have Nana catch them and dash into a jump-canceled grab with Popo for his regrab. This is easier to do, but takes up a lot of room. I wanted to maximize the damage I could get with as little room as possible.

    First off, you get more damage if you throw in de-sync blizzards or tilts in between each repetition. Nana will headbutt and forward-throw, getting between 11-15 percent each time she grabs. Your fresh d-throw will do 6 percent. Once the damage decays, you'll probably be getting about 15 percent on average per repetition. If you throw in one f-tilt and headbutt while grabbing with Popo, you do about 7 percent; a headbutt blizzard gets you about 11 percent. So mixing those in with the chaingrab makes it a little harder to do, but gets you more damage in fewer repetitions.

    There are also ways to increase the number of repetitions. When Nana grabs, make sure you walk so you are standing BARELY in front of her and do a standing grab. Even when I have almost no room left to do the grab, I can squeeze in 3-4 reps like this; if you were combining that with headbutt blizzard, you'd be getting a minimum of 30 percent with each iteration. Given that your opponent is now at the edge of the stage, even if you grabbed them at 0 percent you'd be able to KO most enemies with a charged d-throw f-smash. Except for the heaviest characters, that would finish them even on Dreamland 64.

    So when practicing this, try to incorporate additional damage dealers and try to use as little room as possible. In fact, you'll want to use almost no room at all because...

    [PLT] It works on platforms.

    Nana's throwing AI is the same on platforms as it is on the edge. She's more likely to b-throw, unfortunately; a lot of the time her back will be closer to the edge *behind* her and she'll throw that direction instead. I'll talk about this a little more later.

    What are the more obvious problems with using the platform? First off, you can accidentally make Nana fall through when you d-throw. Second, there's less room.

    For the second problem, just look above; if you're maximizing your damage, having very little room won't be much of a problem. If you're grabbing them on a platform at ALL, you've also probably hurt them a bit, so it won't need to be zero to death.

    The first problem is harder to deal with, but there are ways around it.

    1) Barely nudge the joystick down, and Nana won't even crouch when you throw. This can be tough to execute in a match because you're probably a little nervous or you can't fully concentrate on the subtle movement. Personally, I have problems with this because I have very shaky hands. If you don't like that...

    2) Right after you hit down, press your shield and grab using A. The timing on this is also tricky, but a bit less so. If you screw up, Nana will dodge.

    These tricks are also handy for CG'ing the lighter characters, and I'll get into that later.

    If you're maximizing the damage you get from each rep and you can handle performing it on platforms, then you have extra ways to land this CG and get KOs from it. However, there is a THIRD issue with it--and the CG in general--that needs detailing next.

    [FNSH] Other finishing techniques.

    If Popo grabs at the very edge of the level and down-throws, the enemy is too far off the level for Nana's u-smash to reach them. It's also harder to time the d-throw f-smash. Also, when you're on a platform the opponent may be wiggling and not give you time to charge, which can make d-throwing harder.

    Fortunately, you have u-throw u-smash, which is always guaranteed. Charge up-smash with Nana, wait for it to pick up a bit of power, and then let go. IMMEDIATELY after you let go, up-throw. Nana's smash will interrupt the throw and send the enemy up. You don't get damage from the throw, but you put the opponent higher in the air.

    You don't need to worry about this if, for instance, you grab the opponent at 60 percent. You just need about 1 or 2 reps with damage builders and you'll have them at KO percent before they're out of range for d-throw f-smash or d-throw u-smash. You're more likely to run out of room early on platforms or if you grab them at a really low percent.

    Another thing you can use is u-throw f-smash; imagine you were playing on Battlefield and grabbed them on a platform, but you were facing into the level. You ledge CG and get a Falco player to 80 percent on . With appropriate DI u-throw u-smash won't KO him. If you full charge and f-smash and then up-throw, release and it will send him behind you. Odds are he won't survive that even if he DIs correctly.

    [WGHT] Characters fall into weight classes

    Every character has a specific weight, and d-throw takes a different amount of time to execute depending on how heavy they are. That means that the chaingrab has a different timing depending on the character you're doing it to. However, there is NOT a unique throw length for every character; they fall into different weight classes, and most of them share a timing with other characters.

    MikeHaggarTHAKJB linked to some data by Magus that illustrates the list of heaviness; here's the URL: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5896487

    Even if you do the math to figure out all the timing, it's still best to practice for yourself and see who shares what. However, here are the more common tournament characters. Remember, I'm not entirely sure if these are perfectly correct, but they seem very similar to me and it's how I practice.

    Samus, Ganon, Falcon

    Luigi, Doc, Mario

    Peach, Sheik, Marth, Falco, ICs--Falco and ICs may be a smidgeon faster, though.

    Fox

    Puff

    Typically faster characters are harder to perform it on, but if you aren't used to the timing you'll still screw it up. Even in the same class, some characters are harder to perform it on. Peach is much easier than Marth, Ganon is easier than Samus and Falcon, and I find the Marios to be the toughest.

    My formula, if you will, for figuring out when to time the grab is pretty simple: when you d-throw and slam the opponent into the ground, a green flash appears. You want to grab at the same time as that flash, regardless of character weight.

    The reason faster characters are harder to time is because if Nana crouches, standing prevents her from doing a grab--a shorter throw animation means the crouch can interrupt the timing. If you use the answers for platform CGs, however, you shouldn't have a problem.

    [CSI] Character specific info.

    The following information was supported by ant-d. Thanks man, I wish *I* had AR so I could be as cool as you.

    So for some characters it's not QUITE an infinite but it may as well be. The nice thing is that this means some characters should be guaranteed to die off a good grab. No more excuses, people!

    [OTHR] Other stuff.

    --Certain characters require a very specific placement of Popo if you want to grab them after Nana's f-throw. Samus and the Marios need you to stand BARELY in front of Nana. If you're too far forward, they will fly over the grab.

    --Slopes screw up the CG on certain characters. Samus and the Marios are the problem characters again; they're floaty and go high off the f-throw; this means CG'ing them on Yoshi's Story and some Pokemon Stadium transformations is problematic. If it's even doable, your spacing and timing both need to be spot-on.

    --On Pokemon Stadium's transformations, certain areas act as ledges that affect Nana's DI. They occur in Grass and Rock, and also while the stage is transforming. When the various platforms are sinking into the level, they create small invisible walls that you can't run over or tech through. In rare instances, this can cause Nana to go into her ledge AI--sadly, almost every time she'll b-throw.

    On Grass, near the right edge there is a small tuft of land that creates a fake ledge; when you're between it and the edge Nana will sometimes b-throw. If you're on its right side and facing left, you get an f-throw. The small slope on the right side of the stage creates the same effect; a normal ledge CG is--I think--impossible here; if anybody can confirm or deny that, I'd appreciate it. It's a little hard to test.

    On Rock, the trick wall on the right side will cause Nana to throw over it instead of the ledge. This means you can CG from farther inside the level, but not at the actual edge. The platforms in the middle of the stage also cause Nana to b-throw 99 percent of the time, so that's unfortunate.

    --Regrabbing can work in the middle of the stage as well. Nana has a 50 percent chance to f-throw or d-throw in normal situations, both of which Popo can regrab from. On levels with platforms, b-throw and u-throw can also put the enemy onto platforms where you get tech-chases situations, which can lead to guaranteed platform CGs and u-air combos. Again, PS is bad for this because its transformations create slopes that make it harder to regrab, and its weird platform configuration makes tech-chasing unlikely. On the bright side, if you DO get tech-chases on any of them, there is some decent potential for early d-throw u-smash KOs.

    --Some levels screw it up. It's tough to do on Dreamland except on the top platform because of Wispy, it's tough to do on Rainbow Cruise because of its slopes and moving crap, it's tough to do on Brinstar because of lava, it's tough to do on Pokefloats because everything's too **** weird, and it's tough to do on PS because of its transformations. That's not even every level.

    --I have a secret trick I'm showing in a soon to be made combo video :) I feel it has little utility which is why I don't feel bad not mentioning it, but it looks pretty cool.

    --This acts as an infinite on Bowser and DK, since Popo doesn't need to move forward to regrab after the. Against M2, Nana sometimes gets shoved far into the level and either continues f-throwing or goes too far and randomly throws elsewhere.

    --There's a very nearly useless trick that lets you ledge CG and it's improbable you will ever need it, but I'll mention it anyways. Pretend you're on FD, and you and Nana are on the left side of the stage, facing right. The opponent is in front of you. Dash towards them then IMMEDIATELY pivot left and grab; Nana will keep sliding and do a turning grab, causing her to face left and do an f-throw. Sometimes this lets you dash-dance or pivot into a regrab and execute the CG from an otherwise impossible situation.

    --Less difficult but more escapable is simply using reverse d-throw d-air to change the direction you are facing. When you're facing the wrong way this lets you turn and get the chaingrab going. In other cases, you can use normal d-throw d-air to push the enemy closer to the edge where you can then use the ledge CG.

    --A high-quality video of the CG in action, done on Captain Falcon. This one was performed with AR, though it's more than doable by hand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia8jqRyUp9E Thanks to ant-d for the vid and link.

    --I noticed recently when playing against a friend that opponents tend to DI away when Nana f-throws in the hopes that it will get them out of the grab. You can abuse that by f-smashing after handing them off to Nana, particularly if you have them at the edge of a platform and can't continue. The opponent typically won't know you're at the CG's limit, so you can exploit that (especially on fast fallers).

    *

    I think that's all I've got. If there are any more questions, post here; if you really want to know the answer to a question right away, feel free to contact me at excelexcel25 on AIM. I will also respond to e-mails at honorbreaker@gmail.com, or PMs if you prefer.

    However, please don't send messages such as "I can't do it, help!" or "How do I do it?" I spent a LOT of time failing to do this and practicing the hell out of it (and even now I still screw up). Sometimes you will lose the timing. It's a matter of practice and experimenting until you get it right--if you don't have it right away, keep trying. Find a mental method that lets you get it consistently--I watch for the green flash on the d-throw and listen for the sound on the f-throw; if something else works better for you, do it.

    Peace.
     
  2. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
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    My jaw dropped when I first saw Wobbles use LCG in matches.

    Have you tested out which characters it's an infinite on? Bowser and DK are obvious, but I swear I've been able to regrab some other larger characters at high percentages (like Marth) without moving.
     
  3. MikeHaggarTHAKJB

    MikeHaggarTHAKJB
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    Here's something that's very related to this that's very useful:
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5896487
    ^^ A formula to figure out the differences in the amount of frames the grab animation lasts depending on which char you're throwing. So with this you can figure it exactly which chars require the same timing and how big the differences in timing are.

    btw: is wobbling banned in most american tournaments?
     
  4. Kyu Puff

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    Whether it's banned or not completely depends on the TO. Around here (NE) it's usually legal, but I've seen plenty tournaments ban it as well.
     
  5. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY
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    does wobbles have a combo video?
     
  6. Wobbles

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    Desert Eskimo

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    ICG: I don't really understand what your post even says :( This thread also isn't about d-throw d-air.

    Kyu: I've managed to actually set it up infinitely on Falcon; it requires a very specific distance between Nana and Popo that I don't know how to manipulate. Either that or it's frame perfect.
     
  7. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY
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    sorry i am dyslexic man sometimes i can't tell what you are trying to say but aren't you like 2# of 3# ice climber in the world and do you wobbles have a combo video?
     
  8. Wobbles

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    Desert Eskimo

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    Alright, no worries then.

    And no, I don't have a combo video.
     
  9. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY
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    you should have one , that's not insane , well maybe one could make it if i can get some clips
     
  10. S.D

    S.D
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    Is it just popo d throw to nana regrab to nana f throw to popo regrab rinse wash repeat?
     
  11. Binx

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    @ SD: Yes, and if they aren't trying to struggle out you could forward tilt or blizzard them with nana during before Popo's throws for extra damage.
     
  12. Red Risk

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    So... this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykXqEv-zb78#t=0m38s

    Oh, and was that a bthrow to charged reverse fsmash at 2:14? With that... you could gimp at lower percentages with improper DI. Or mindgame into thinking you're going to do bthrow, but instead do dthrow. My god Wobbles.
     
  13. S.D

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    After seeing Wobbles use this I figured it out and it's pretty freaking useful.

    Thanks for the wisdom Wobbles.
     
  14. PB&J

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    good thread wobbles..all icy should learn this quick
     
  15. `EX

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    Are you going to ASU or UofA
     
  16. Kyu Puff

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    I've been able to infinite Bowser and DK, but only occasionally regrab Falcon, Marth, and other big characters without moving. I'm under the impression that it's frame perfect. Sometimes when Nana f-throws she'll slide back a little; I'm not sure what causes it but it also makes regrabbing without moving easier (this only happens to me vs DK and Bowser).
     
  17. Wobbles

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    Desert Eskimo

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    Kyu: Yeah, you don't have to move to regrab Bowser and DK. Funnily enough though, M2's body is so weirdly big and flaily that it can push Nana completely out of ledge range and cause her to throw randomly. So... sometimes he gets away from it in weird ways.
     
  18. Red Risk

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    Wobbles: I was hoping that you would edit the OP soon with details, but you haven't ;(

    Also, I tried to add you on AIM, but I think that you have Privacy set for friends only?
     
  19. S.D

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    I think the best way to learn this is simply to practice it on different characters. Once you get the timing down it's really not that difficult. It's just a matter of trial and error. Try it on someone like fox or jiggs to start with where the timing for nana's grab is almost immediately after pressing d throw with popo. Make sure you let go of the direction before you press grab or nana will just jab or dtilt.
     
  20. Fly_Amanita

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    On lightweight characters, I just JC grab with Nana to prevent this.
     
  21. Wobbles

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    Red Risk: It's updated now :)

    Sorry that took so long folks, I've been busy and I forgot to keep this on my to-do list. I tried to put as much information as I can, but if you've still got questions or want to discuss it then please post.

    Amanita: I dislike JC grabbing with Nana simply because it adds another timing window that can screw up the throw--however, if it does work for people then I wholeheartedly endorse it.

    `EX: I go to ASU in Tempe.
     
  22. Wobbles

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    Desert Eskimo

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    Bumping, because people seemed to want this information and I'm wondering if they missed it.
     
  23. INSANE CARZY GUY

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    how would you chain throw pichu? because i want to know if there is an easy way to so my pichu will be really and my IC's

    will be really and in the summer I may go to AZ and i was wanting to know how alive melee smash is i saw 3 posts for tournaments there ,soo good or bad or what?
     
  24. Wobbles

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    Desert Eskimo

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    ICG: The tournament scene is pretty small, but the people who *do* play Melee consistently go to tournaments.

    As for Pichu, I don't think you need to chain grab. If you get an opening, wavesmash or grab smash; he'll die pretty quickly. Little combos like dash-attack up-air do nearly 40 percent and for Pichu that's half dead.
     
  25. INSANE CARZY GUY

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    thank you wobbles ,once i 3 stocked my brother (he never really play as the ICs) and then he found the deadly DOWN SMASH and he came back and i love to set up an epic final death like gann's down B or falcon punch or something like that so yeah.

    i think if pichu could get around the smashes(slower than grabs) he could be a decent match-up for the ICs with nair and back throw and he can juggle very well and that really sucks for the ICs
     
  26. S.D

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    Then just let him rack up % by himself XD
     
    Benny P likes this.
  27. ant-d

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    Would anyone like me to do this ledge chain-grab technique 'perfectly' in AR and then upload the video?
     
  28. MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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    Yhea, that'd be awesome.
    btw, you're that guy who makes all those crazy smash64 vids, right? =O
     
  29. ant-d

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    Yes ^^

    Ice Climbers Ledge Chain Grab Video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia8jqRyUp9E
    watch in high quality

    This is done frame by frame, definitely not my skill^^


    Here are some things which I found out (I only tested on falcon, so the points below may only apply against him):

    1. You must move forward for at least 1 frame (1 frame of a step) in order for Popo to grab Falcon. If you don't move you will miss the re-grab. You don't have to move forward very much, as I said, 1 frame is enough. Just be slightly ahead of Nana.

    2. For Nana to grab, you have to initiate the grab a few frames before falcon hits the floor (he is thrown onto the floor from the d-throw). You have a relatively large window of opportunity to do this.

    3. Nana may jab before the f-throw, this may mess up your timing.

    4. I use PAL version, it may be different somehow...
     
  30. PB&J

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    there is another vid when some icy is doing this to a bowser but im glad u posted this because all icy's mains needs to be motivated and step there game up
     
  31. Kyu Puff

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    Thanks for the video. Keep making IC vids... it's cool to see what they can do frame perfectly. Do you have to move forward one frame for Marth also?
     
  32. ant-d

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    Yes. It doesn't have to be one frame, just move any amount forward, but of course the shorter the step the better.

    If you want the specifics, in order for Nana to grab marth, you have to press Z 4 frames before the 'green' appears after the d-throw. 4 frames before they hit the ground.

    Or in other words, have Nana grab when the opponent is lifted directly over the IC's head.

    For heavier characters (DK), Nana needs to grab later (2-3 frames before green).


    Here are all the characters that don't require you to move forward at low damage:

    dk, bowser, kirby, ness, popo

    Must move forward from ~100%:
    popo

    no need to move forward (800%+):
    dk, bowser, kirby, ness
    wireframes, sandbag

    all the rest require you to move forward from 0%.

    doesn't work on pichu, as mentioned in the first post.

    edit: oh, also the timing for popo's grab is: press Z exactly when nana's hammer hits the opponent (nana's fthrow involves the hammer hitting the opponent forward)
     
  33. Wobbles

    Wobbles
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    Desert Eskimo

    Joined:
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    Gilbert, AZ

    Hey folks, small update on the first post. I added all of ant-d's information and the following snippet.

    * *

    I noticed recently when playing against a friend that opponents tend to DI away when Nana f-throws in the hopes that it will get them out of the grab. You can abuse that by f-smashing after handing them off to Nana, particularly if you have them at the edge of a platform and can't continue. The opponent typically won't know you're at the CG's limit, so you can exploit that (especially on fast fallers).

    * *

    Also, some people have started referring to this as "the handoff." It's easier to type and say than ledge chaingrab or ledge CG, so I'm going to start calling it either "the handoff" or simply "regrabbing" from now on.
     
  34. ant-d

    ant-d
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    Smash Lord

    Joined:
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    No problem.

    Oh, perhaps DK has the easiest timing of all...

    You just have to press Z when the green appears on the ground. And also press Z when nana's hammer hits DK.

    So you just have to time your grab with the impact of the ground, and of that of the fthrow hammer.
    And of course you do not have to move forward either.

    Perhaps people who are having trouble should try this timing with DK.

    I should also mention that this timing ends at 300%, but I'm sure you would end the CG by then. To carry on over 300% you would of course have to initiate the grab a frame earlier than when DK hits the ground...

    useless info:
    you can also up-smash with popo if nana plans to do two jabs before f-throwing. The up-smash doesn't send the opponent away because nana is still headbutting. This leaves you enough time to recover for the re-grab.
    It's useless because it's only feasible if you -know- nana will do two headbutts. You can also do blizzard rather than up-smash.
    It looks cool in a TAS though :p
    If there's 1 headbutt there's time to do things such as SH AFA, then re-grab.
    Again, this is just extra stuff that I found using frame advance (AR). It may not be of any real use.
     
  35. Jam Stunna

    Jam Stunna
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    Writer of Fortune

    Joined:
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    Hartford, CT
    3DS FC:
    0447-6552-1484

    Stickied .
     
  36. ant-d

    ant-d
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    Smash Lord

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    oh yeah, it's technically possible to escape with 'perfect mashing' if nana decides to jab at semi-low damage
     
  37. Legendaryhero

    Legendaryhero
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    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
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    As usual wobbles... i am astonished by your creativity and relentless discovery of **** that the rest of the smash community will probobly ban in like 6 months... viva the next 6 months!
     
  38. Binx

    Binx
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    Smash Master

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    I'm off to practice this.

    Wobbles how is your combo vid coming?
     
  39. Wobbles

    Wobbles
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    Desert Eskimo

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    Clip creation is on hold for mid-terms, but the trailer creator has access to already recorded stuff and we may be making a trailer soon.
     
  40. Binx

    Binx
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    Smash Master

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    ooh hurray
     

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