Lag-free online fighting? Absolutely! (GGPO.net)

[Dacvak]

Jesus Christ, this thread is ridiculous. I can understand when people argue in threads that are based on opinions, but everything in this thread is based on fact. There are no two ways about it.

Dantarion, thank God you're here to explain to all these people reaching for false hopes.

Seriously. Read every one of Dantarion's posts, because he's 100% correct, and I can't even add to anything he's said already.

Fact: Every online game has lag.
Fact: Most fast-paced online fighting games have noticeable lag.
Fact: When you have multiple players in one online game, lag becomes increasingly more prevalent.
Fact: Brawl will have lag that at most times will be noticeable.

Anyone who denies this has no intelligent concept of online gaming. If you'd like the explanations to why these facts are true, read Dantarion's posts. He knows more than you.

~Dac

 

[YondaimeMarth]

Thats because I have tried to implement networking code into a 2d platformer type game and networking is full of horrible and fail, especially for someone like me who really has no idea what they were doing.

I ended up learning a lot about how other games do it, and ways to make my networking code not suck.

do you play on kaillera?

 

[Dantarion]

Yep, on Emularena Grounds, under the name "Dantarion"

 

[BackItch]

Can a mod close this thread before people begin to think that smash or any other game could actually use this.

All this seems to be is a modified emulator.

From the GGPO.net's own FAQ:
---
Can GGPO.net work with games other than Street Fighter Alpha 2?

The algorithms used by GGPO.net are not specific to any game. They’re ideally suited to multiplayer arcade games, especially Capcom fighters. The modifications to FinalBurn are to synchronize and exchange packets between the two GGPO clients, not to modify the game in any way. So, yes, the GGPO.net netcode could certainly be applied to any fighting game.
---

So it seems other games could actually use this.

It appears they've just found some really clever algorithms for predicting/hidding lag in fighting games.

I appreciate your insight, Dantarion. I think you've shown you know what you're talking about when it comes to what it takes to make a game playable online. However, I think you might have misunderstood the difference between the special netcode GGPO uses and the Emulator itself.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the modified FinalBurn emulator itself would be used in Brawl. Just the algorithms, or something similar.

It clearly works well, so there's no reason NOT to be excided about it. However, I get the impression that Brawl is too far along in development to make use of this... even if Nintendo DID know about it.

Perhaps this means improvments in Smash64's online play?
Or the chance for a Cube emulator down the road to use it?

 

[a lot of effs]

GGPO = Kaillera.

And I am pretty sure GGPO players still use the Kaillera setting "Good", which means that the game actually syncs 20 times a second, meaning a max of 3 frames of input lag. All the smash players play with the same setting on Emularena as well.

GGPO cannot compensate for lag in any other way then waiting for the lagging computer to stop lagging. It is a network enabled emulator, and all of them work the same, except for a few nes emulators I know of that can resynch by sending a memory dump :D.

Please tell me how its Kaillera considering it runs only about 50 times better.

I'm not sure how it's better than every online fighter, but it is. It's absolutely flawless unless you live across the globe from the person or your connection sucks. Experience speaks louder than words. Regardless, near flawless online play is possible, and I assume it can be applied to Smash too. Maybe the programmers sold their soul to the devil, but the fact that it exists already is a testament to the fact that online games can be played without signifigant issues towards competitive gamers. Saying that netcode will always suck, even if you do bring in excellent points, is pretty invalid now that you've been disproven.

I can do reversal shoryukens vs all opponents in GGPO, this is about a 3 frame input. With input delay and varied latency from player to player, this timing would change, but it doesn't. There's only 1 frame of input delay every single game I play. It might be voodoo magic, they might be the best net coders alive, but it ****ing works.

 

[Dantarion]

After taking a more in detailed look at GGPO, it seems to be a specialized implementation of exactly what kaillera does. While it may work better than kaillera like you have posted, there is no way that the game is syncing input 60 times a second, or even 45 times a second.

It is simply not possible to exchange data that fast over the internet.

BackItch, the reason not to get excited over it is because it isn't a breakthrough at all. They haven't unveiled any new technique for syncing networked emulators, nor is there any way for ANYONE, to apply whatever they are doing to any other emulator.

While I now realize they aren't using kaillera, there is only two ways to sync an emulated game:

1. Sending just the inputs and hopeing the same result occurs
2. Synchronizing memory addresses.

Option number two takes up too much bandwidth, but can be used to resynch a game, and option 1 is what kaillera and GGPO use.

Unless someone can find a post stating what amazing breakthrough GGPO has made, I will see it as the news "Someone made custom netcode for an emulator"

 

[Xanderous]

I don't ****ing care about your technical "expertise." I've played tons of games, and if the lag isn't noticeable in those, it'll be fine in this game. You guys need something new to talk about.

 

[Dacvak]

This thread is dumb.

Xanderous: "I don't ****ing care about your technical 'expertise.'"

Is this concept applied to your overall way of life, because you certainly are acting ignorant. Dantarion is pretty much the only one in this thread who understands online play. Read his posts.

Please, God, close this thread.

~Dac

 

[Red Exodus]

I'm not going to get my hopes up for this. I lag like hell on Kalliera and it is 100% impossible for me to NOT desynch. I'm new to this technical stuff, so I only know basic terms like algorithms, packets etc.

And btw Zanderous, Brawl is not 'those games', so there's no possible way you can tell whether or not you will lag.

 

[LKR000]

it probably will end up lagging i mean every game ends up lagging depending on the other people connection speed and ur own but still if they can sort the online mode out it would be the biggest thing that hit the wii in multiplayer

 

[-Wolfy-]

I'm not getting my hopes up because that way I can only be impressed. My dad manages a branch from his work from home so we've got a pretty fast connection, my only concern is matchmaking and ending up with someone with a slower connection.

 

[LKR000]

yeh i know im concerned bout that and also sore losers cause i have come across plenty on mario strikers charged so there will probably end up being some on brawl aswell thats if its online

 

[-Wolfy-]

on Pokemon Battle Revolution 90 percent of people will quit when you're in a favorable position. I'm tired of sore losers -.-

 

[LKR000]

yeh me too if they cant take loseing they shud just stop playing if i get people like this on brawl i swear i will hit something XD

 

[-Wolfy-]

For brawl there will probably be a thread for friendcodes, i'll most likely only play people from that roster.

 

[LKR000]

good idea ill prolly dop the same

 

[-Wolfy-]

I mean, if you talk to the people mroe often, they're more likely not to embarass themselves by quitting during a match.

 

[hidden]

While I now realize they aren't using kaillera, there is only two ways to sync an emulated game:

1. Sending just the inputs and hopeing the same result occurs
2. Synchronizing memory addresses.

Option number two takes up too much bandwidth, but can be used to resynch a game, and option 1 is what kaillera and GGPO use.

Maybe a combination of the two? Continuesly sending the input and once a sec./half sec. Synchronizing memory addresses.

 

[Dantarion]

The problem with synching by memory addresses is that for many systems, a memory dump is about 16mb even compressed. I have only seen a nes and snes emulator use a memory dump to resynch.

 

[Phrozn]

i really hope nintendo does hear this because of its great importance!

 

[hidden]

Is that memory dump you are talking about the full memory or only the stuff needed for gameplay?
If its the first maybe they can cut some space that way?

 

[Falco&Victory]

Lag free online? Simple. Think about it.
60fps = .01666666 second frames. If there is less ping than .0166666 seconds, NO LAG!
Isnt that just tight? Considering Super Mario Strikers also runs at 60fps, and Halo runs about 60fps(but has WAY more objects to generate)

 

[Leoneri]

I don't ****ing care about your technical "expertise." I've played tons of games, and if the lag isn't noticeable in those, it'll be fine in this game. You guys need something new to talk about.

So basically if you can't see the problem, it isn't there? It has been stated already that lag is disguised so it isn't noticeable, which means there is lag. If you think you know better than everyone who has more expertise than you in a subject, I feel oh so sorry for you. Dantarion obviously has a better grasp of it than you and in your insecurity that SSBB online might lag you want the problem to have no chance of appearing by closing out any possibility of it to your mind.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Why can't we all get along? Let's revel in the confirmation of online play, not the possibilities of destructive lag in our online play.

 

[Dantarion]

Lag free online? Simple. Think about it.
60fps = .01666666 second frames. If there is less ping than .0166666 seconds, NO LAG!
Isnt that just tight? Considering Super Mario Strikers also runs at 60fps, and Halo runs about 60fps(but has WAY more objects to generate)

That would be true....except for one thing.

There is rarely .016666... (16ms) ping across far distances, like east coast to west coast.

For example, just for kicks, i went and ping'ed google.com.

It took 23ms to get a response back.

Saying "We will just have to keep it under 16/17ms ping" is basically like saying
"We will have to make sure the Wii's are on a local network", which defeats the "Play people across the US thing"

I am interested on what nintendo will do in terms of lag compensation, expecially with things like powershielding, shine canceling, wavedashing, short hopes, and all the other precision moves that exist in melee.

Remember, there are people out there who do things like know how many frames certain attacks are, etc.

 

[Red Exodus]

I don't think online will be used for competitive play. Even 1 frame of lag is enough to throw off a person's game so it'll be mainly used for approximations of skill and fun matches like pokeball fights etc.

 

[180OP]

That would be true....except for one thing.

There is rarely .016666... (16ms) ping across far distances, like east coast to west coast.

For example, just for kicks, i went and ping'ed google.com.

It took 23ms to get a response back.

Saying "We will just have to keep it under 16/17ms ping" is basically like saying
"We will have to make sure the Wii's are on a local network", which defeats the "Play people across the US thing"

I am interested on what nintendo will do in terms of lag compensation, expecially with things like powershielding, shine canceling, wavedashing, short hopes, and all the other precision moves that exist in melee.

Remember, there are people out there who do things like know how many frames certain attacks are, etc.

Dude, I am a student in electronics engineering for communications, I've done 1 year so far, we just briefly touched on demuxers, muxers etc.

Do you have any titles of books that you would recommend for me to learn more indepth on this topic?

Red Exodus, Don't forget ASSIST TROPHY FIGHTS!

 

[ToXn]

I'm just hoping tha6t this **** isn't online, so all you fools who are to lazy/to afraid to leave your house to just go over to someone else's house will cry.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Except where it is actually confirmed that it will e Wi-Fi enabled. XD

 

[Tsuki]

Except where it is actually confirmed that it will e Wi-Fi enabled. XD

Well if it only says "Wi-Fi enabled" that may also mean that there will be Updates/Bugfixes =/

 

[-Wolfy-]

Explain... I'm not sure I follow that. I've not had any issues with PBR online for the wii, and none of my ds games have presented any trouble.

 

[Leoneri]

It means that little tricks you learn could be fixed and taken away. I dont doubt if melee was online the SHL or something of the likes would be taken away.

 

[Biolink]

The fights from what I hear from SRK aren't exactly lag-free.I have the cient,but I can't play because my video card is absolute ***.

There is no input lag,so you should have no problem doing combos.

 

[Jihnsius]

It means that little tricks you learn could be fixed and taken away. I dont doubt if melee was online the SHL or something of the likes would be taken away.

That's a very good point to raise. Stand by to WEP your networks, everyone.\

EDIT: There are little tricks in game networking that allow you to "speed up" the latency, such as setting certain attacks or movements to switches, rather than individual triggers. With the inclusion of something like this, say, instead of sending a packet of information including every unit of movement they are at while doing so and so move, they could just send a packet saying "move started here along this trajectory" and "move ended here along this trajectory." 60+ packets of information have thus been condensed into 2 packets of information. However, packet bursts can send the entire system to hell.

If we're looking at a peer-to-peer network, expect to be able to play people in your city without much lag, but no farther. If we're looking at client-server, get ready to move to Japan to get anywhere near a good ping.

 

[Dantarion]

If we're looking at a peer-to-peer network, expect to be able to play people in your city without much lag, but no farther. If we're looking at client-server, get ready to move to Japan to get anywhere near a good ping.

Why would the main servers for SSBB Brawl USA be in Japan?

Also, I have a feeling like Nintendo's servers are just going to be used as matchmaking servers, and the actual gameplay traffic will be from the game hoster's wii to the other 3 people.

 

[Jihnsius]

Why would the main servers for SSBB Brawl USA be in Japan?

Also, I have a feeling like Nintendo's servers are just going to be used as matchmaking servers, and the actual gameplay traffic will be from the game hoster's wii to the other 3 people.

Didn't Nintendo close it's USA branch doors? .. Or was that Square Enix? I can't recall. Either way, client-server will suck unless both/all players live fairly close (couple hundred miles, maybe) of the server.

Remembered another latency trick: Map directional input to bits. Doubt that'd work for analog controller input, though.

EDIT: Regardless of these latency/packeting tricks, Brawl online will probably be a gimmick and won't be used for any competitive or tournament play.

If, though, somehow it does work out nicely, BrawlLadderRanking will be in full effect (check profile for link.)

 

[tehSANDMAN]

Hey, is Brawl online confirmed? Because I just went on IGN and in an article saying that a playable demo for brawl would not be available at E3, it says that you will also be able to play against friends online.
end of 2nd paragraph
http://wii.ign.com/articles/801/801246p1.html

 

[-Wolfy-]

YES!!! Read the earlier pages, I mention the Wi-Fi aspect. Gamespy is handling the matchmaking.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'm just hoping tha6t this **** isn't online, so all you fools who are to lazy/to afraid to leave your house to just go over to someone else's house will cry.

Yup, because everyone has neighbours who:

Play games.
Have Wiis.
Want Brawl.
Are good at smash.

/sarcasm

Lazy my ***, I'd like you to come here and see how well you fair trying to find someone who plays games, doesn't hate Nintendo, and who isn't complete **** in smash [seriously, FFAs and items are dominate].

 

[Blackadder]

Brawl online is really the only option for most Smashers.

As Red said, not everyone has Wii's and Smash players abound in there area.

I can tell you now, its the only chance I have at Competitive play.

I got Wireless net JUST for it!