xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx
Smash Ace
flowin, who ya talkin to man?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
L-Canceling, WDing, quick-jumping...alot of black smoke?
- Thread starter xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx
- Start date
- Status
flowin, who ya talkin to man?
FlowinWater
Smash Champion
I was referring to ruler, he said these techniques are totally useless, I just said an expression saying that if I play him, He will see the uses of the techniques.
Kyari
Smash Lord
As we type, hopefully tempers will not flare, and such, so I will continue on.
Well... no one ever said your goat made you look any more special. You want a goat in your signature, and I like to italicize my posts. DEAL with it. Moving on...
For your (rofl, and probably everyone else's) pleasure, I will negate my previous post.
Now, wavedashing does create a sort-of style for certain characters (marth, mario, luigi). Removing this would eliminate the style, and you might be left with an inferior bag of tricks. My point is that these are not embellishments at all, rather they are usually integrated into a playing style, and the result is better results. What does being good give you? It gives you wins. And if these techniques also give you more wins (or fewer losses) in the long run, then sure, they make you better. Why not? L-cancelling and CC'ing will serve their purpose when used effectively, and that is to give you wins. Overall that is the only thing that having skill or being good will do for you, so I say that if it attributes to your success, then that is all that matters.
As for WD'ing, it's a tougher call there. Some people believe that it is just a style of play (and it is). But overviewing all styles of play, not all can be equally effective. WD'ing gives the player an edge to make them more effective, and therefore YES, sure it oughta make you better than before.
Although I could be wrong (I really doubt it, but), some characters can't use WD very well. I've seen this demonstrated with Peach, Zelda, Bowser, Falcon, and a few others and I didn't notice how it helped them at all, and furthermore, I can't think of anything they could do with it because of these facts: it's either:
Really hard to do....
Taking a considerably longer time to recover from and repeat...
Or it sends them almost nowhere...
Or a combination of the three. WD'ing is supposed to add a fluid-like motion to a character, and some of them are simply not blessed with a good enough WD to actually care about utilizing it. From habit, I do it with all characters at least a few times. Here and there, like maybe while I am edge guarding I will do a few of them to deceive, or while they are dead I will practice them, but really, they don't seem to help ALL characters but they indeed help SOME. I hope you understand me because I have horrible persuasive powers and all that junk.
Realizing the short-fuse attitude I had not too long ago, I am now fixing things up, stepping back, humbling myself and hopefully you won't hate me forever for it (first impressions influence these things a lot though
).
(psst FlowinWater, I use these all of the time, don't trouble yourself)
FlowingWater! "mayor BS" roflmao
Well... no one ever said your goat made you look any more special. You want a goat in your signature, and I like to italicize my posts. DEAL with it. Moving on...
For your (rofl, and probably everyone else's) pleasure, I will negate my previous post.
Now, wavedashing does create a sort-of style for certain characters (marth, mario, luigi). Removing this would eliminate the style, and you might be left with an inferior bag of tricks. My point is that these are not embellishments at all, rather they are usually integrated into a playing style, and the result is better results. What does being good give you? It gives you wins. And if these techniques also give you more wins (or fewer losses) in the long run, then sure, they make you better. Why not? L-cancelling and CC'ing will serve their purpose when used effectively, and that is to give you wins. Overall that is the only thing that having skill or being good will do for you, so I say that if it attributes to your success, then that is all that matters.
As for WD'ing, it's a tougher call there. Some people believe that it is just a style of play (and it is). But overviewing all styles of play, not all can be equally effective. WD'ing gives the player an edge to make them more effective, and therefore YES, sure it oughta make you better than before.
Although I could be wrong (I really doubt it, but), some characters can't use WD very well. I've seen this demonstrated with Peach, Zelda, Bowser, Falcon, and a few others and I didn't notice how it helped them at all, and furthermore, I can't think of anything they could do with it because of these facts: it's either:
Really hard to do....
Taking a considerably longer time to recover from and repeat...
Or it sends them almost nowhere...
Or a combination of the three. WD'ing is supposed to add a fluid-like motion to a character, and some of them are simply not blessed with a good enough WD to actually care about utilizing it. From habit, I do it with all characters at least a few times. Here and there, like maybe while I am edge guarding I will do a few of them to deceive, or while they are dead I will practice them, but really, they don't seem to help ALL characters but they indeed help SOME. I hope you understand me because I have horrible persuasive powers and all that junk.
Realizing the short-fuse attitude I had not too long ago, I am now fixing things up, stepping back, humbling myself and hopefully you won't hate me forever for it (first impressions influence these things a lot though
).(psst FlowinWater, I use these all of the time, don't trouble yourself)
FlowingWater! "mayor BS" roflmao
xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx
Smash Ace
yeah, I get mad too quick.
FlowinWater
Smash Champion
Hehehe alright, no probs here. Just dang, saying all these moves are totally useless is mayor BS.
not being able to wavedash/l-cancel/short hop does hinder your game. at higher levels of tourney play, almost anyone who can't L cancel can, does, and will get trounced by those who do so. for almost all characters, the speed increase you get with L cancelling is insane, and allows you to actually do air-ground moves. short hopping does the same thing - letting you use air moves without massively broadcasting what you're about to do. wavedashing isn't as obvious, but it has many practical applications, which were addressed earlier (quicker ledge hogging, fake-outs, generally faster speed, etc).
that having been said, I consider myself at least a decent player, and I can't do ANY of those things. I just plain don't have the timing. Still, I can and have done at least decently in tournaments (weighted stats put me at 12th in snexus 2, and excellent battling in the seeding round helped me tie for 9th at the midwest kish tourney after a VERY close loss to snex). however, the only real answer to not being able to pull those off is my character: Peach. Peach's wavedash is nearly worthless. with proper setup, your air attacks get cancelled anyway by floating. short hopping would help my game, but it's not blatantly necessary if I can force my opponent to come to me with turnips.
crouch cancelling and directional influence are an absolute must though. it's the only way you're going to survive powerful hits, especially as lightweights. as peach, getting the timing down for float cancelling is important as well. if I can improve my offense by jump-cancelling (into quicker running throws) and short hopping for quicker aerials, I can become a much better peach player, but I think I can't go much farther without such advanaced tactics.
that having been said, I consider myself at least a decent player, and I can't do ANY of those things. I just plain don't have the timing. Still, I can and have done at least decently in tournaments (weighted stats put me at 12th in snexus 2, and excellent battling in the seeding round helped me tie for 9th at the midwest kish tourney after a VERY close loss to snex). however, the only real answer to not being able to pull those off is my character: Peach. Peach's wavedash is nearly worthless. with proper setup, your air attacks get cancelled anyway by floating. short hopping would help my game, but it's not blatantly necessary if I can force my opponent to come to me with turnips.
crouch cancelling and directional influence are an absolute must though. it's the only way you're going to survive powerful hits, especially as lightweights. as peach, getting the timing down for float cancelling is important as well. if I can improve my offense by jump-cancelling (into quicker running throws) and short hopping for quicker aerials, I can become a much better peach player, but I think I can't go much farther without such advanaced tactics.
footnbaseball
Smash Ace
ok 1: l canceling and short hop, yea, that hinders your game because no matter how you fight, you can use those things
but not wavedashing hinders nothing except a style of fighting that revolves around wavedashing, which may be effective, but it definitly NOT NECESSARY to be good
but not wavedashing hinders nothing except a style of fighting that revolves around wavedashing, which may be effective, but it definitly NOT NECESSARY to be good
Exactly footnbaseball, wavedashing revolves around making a new fighting style while other techniques don't. Wavedashing helps but it is not key to wining a match. If you want to learn how to wavedash effectively expect to practise a lot. You need to learn it then learn how to change your style so it is effective.
xHayatox
Smash Lord
hmmm fwum what i believe yah it woud make u a really good player if u kno all dis stuff but yah u can still win people just using normal moves and stuff but mainly WD,L canceling CCing i dont kno what dat is but probly do but didnt kno the name but yah if u can mix up ur WD with l cancel and do it wit the mind game it makes u an experts player and yes to be good i believe u need L cancel its essential and WD only comes into play if u kno how to use it correctly. but in any case thats what i believe im one respected smasher and i do all dat shortjumping etc etc but i dont do it on random it just makes it look fancy but doesnt make me a good player if i dont kno how to use it all right =D
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2003
- Messages
- 2,121
Whoo. First post.
Alright, well... Having just started giving Melée serious attention as a deep fighting game, perhaps my opinions are not too important, but here they are anyway.
Even without having mastered either technique, I have found L-canceling and CCing to be incredibly useful. Essential, even. Wavedashing does not, in my currently limited experience, even come close to being essential, but definitely gives you a few more tricks to stuff up your sleeves, and allows for some great surprise tactics, and improved precision of movement.
In other words, I agree with everyone else. ;P
Alright, well... Having just started giving Melée serious attention as a deep fighting game, perhaps my opinions are not too important, but here they are anyway.
Even without having mastered either technique, I have found L-canceling and CCing to be incredibly useful. Essential, even. Wavedashing does not, in my currently limited experience, even come close to being essential, but definitely gives you a few more tricks to stuff up your sleeves, and allows for some great surprise tactics, and improved precision of movement.
In other words, I agree with everyone else. ;P
brain14
Smash Cadet
I've been playing alot of my buddies, and alot of outside competition, and I've noticed a deepening trend...those who WD and/or L-Cancel...don't really have that much of an advantage. One of my friends is real good, but knows NONE of these so-called "advanced" techniques, and gets beat-down on my buddies (and soemtiems even me) just as easily. He doesn't do anything fancy, he just gets the job done. And it seems, that if maybe he DID learn all that fancy mumbo-jumbo, he would lose more often. Its not because WDing, or CCing isn't helpful, its just he doesn't seem to need it and is fine on his own.
i have a freaind like that too i havent been on this site long and havent known about those terms long either(since this is where i learned them). the point is he still hasnt heard of these and still powns my @$$. even when hes not trying his best.
i have a freaind like that too i havent been on this site long and havent known about those terms long either(since this is where i learned them). the point is he still hasnt heard of these and still powns my @$$. even when hes not trying his best.
MrMojoRisin
Smash Apprentice
Everyone of those advanced techniques are necessary except wavedashing. Wavedashing does help a lot more than most people recognize, but some characters don't necessarily need it, such as Peach or Jigglypuff. If you're playing with someone like Marth, Luigi, or the IC's it's necessary. Just watch someone play Marth without wavedashing around, then watch someone who does and you'll notice the wavedasher can move so much faster and easier around the stage which gives you more time to do what you want.
L-Canceling & short hops are the most important as it gives you the biggest speed advantage, which is exactly one of the best kind of advantages.
L-Canceling & short hops are the most important as it gives you the biggest speed advantage, which is exactly one of the best kind of advantages.
cemo
white walker
protip: don't bump 4 year old threads.
Selphious
Smash Cadet
L-Cancelling is almost essential to continue a combo with as much efficiency as possible. Wave Dashing does help, for instance if someone tries to jump in and Aerial attack you in some manner, you can WD back and FSmash or SHFFL with your best Aerial. Teching is just an obvious need. Crouch Cancelling is ok I guess if you're running and your running attack sucks and you decide you wanna DTilit. And I don't know what you mean by 'quick jumping.'
You don't NEED these things to be good, but honestly, they would make you much better if you practiced them and took time to find good uses for all of them.
Edit - Jesus I just wasted my time on an oldass thread... Guess I shoulda payed more attention.
You don't NEED these things to be good, but honestly, they would make you much better if you practiced them and took time to find good uses for all of them.
Edit - Jesus I just wasted my time on an oldass thread... Guess I shoulda payed more attention.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Your friends can use advanced techniques and still get their ***** handed o them because they do not know how to use them properly.Even though you may have tech skill,that doesn't mean instant ownage over people.Mindgames,are far more imporatant.
LOL good job @ brain14 for digging this old thread out for the museum
anyhow today i think we can all agree that LC is 100% required with anyone, and its possible to play without SH (for example. chillin beating ken without sh in game over or masashi's weird fox) but its much better with and some chars cant without it.
theres alot of fanciness in WDing, but again it can only help and some chars cant without it.
anyhow today i think we can all agree that LC is 100% required with anyone, and its possible to play without SH (for example. chillin beating ken without sh in game over or masashi's weird fox) but its much better with and some chars cant without it.
theres alot of fanciness in WDing, but again it can only help and some chars cant without it.
Wavedashing I can see your point, it's definitely not needed to be good, but it can help in situations, and what everyone else said. L-cancelling is a must, unless you tend to finish all of you air attacks in the air everytime no matter what, which I doubt.
Short hopping is useful too, combined with l-cancelling for shffls, which allow very fast chained combos will give you an edge on your opponent if they can't deal with it.
One of my friends is real good, but knows NONE of these so-called "advanced" techniques, and gets beat-down on my buddies (and soemtiems even me) just as easily. He doesn't do anything fancy, he just gets the job done. And it seems, that if maybe he DID learn all that fancy mumbo-jumbo, he would lose more often. Its not because WDing, or CCing isn't helpful, its just he doesn't seem to need it and is fine on his own.
Don't you think he could at least improve his game with l-cancelling?
Short hopping is useful too, combined with l-cancelling for shffls, which allow very fast chained combos will give you an edge on your opponent if they can't deal with it.
One of my friends is real good, but knows NONE of these so-called "advanced" techniques, and gets beat-down on my buddies (and soemtiems even me) just as easily. He doesn't do anything fancy, he just gets the job done. And it seems, that if maybe he DID learn all that fancy mumbo-jumbo, he would lose more often. Its not because WDing, or CCing isn't helpful, its just he doesn't seem to need it and is fine on his own.
Don't you think he could at least improve his game with l-cancelling?
Red Exodus
Smash Master
WDing isn't God you know, you have to know WHAT to do when you WD as opposed to just HOW to WD.
Maybe your friends who use them suck at usng them correctly, using ATs like a headless chicken is not going to hand you an auto-win.
Maybe your friends who use them suck at usng them correctly, using ATs like a headless chicken is not going to hand you an auto-win.
Zone
Smash Champion
Wave-dash. Since this seems to be the only real thing u don't understand why its any good than just "flashy". Here is what I use it for.
On Fox I can Run all around the stage using dash dance + (wave-dash) Used for when I go to far for dash dance to work. And I stay out of range until my opponent throws an attack and miss I run in grab jab or up+smash ect.
My opponents when they come at me with aerials I can Shield. Then they think "Oh he's gonna shield grab i'll be sure to make my aerial hit behind him." That's when I have shield of for a split second and wave-dash backwards so where they were going to land (Behidn me) they are now infront of me to grab. My friend sex kicks with falco behind me alot to avoid getting Shield grabbed. or Down Air behind me.
Good for grabbing the ledge quick.
Now wave-dash is situational and imo only good for like some characters. (I couldn't live with samus w/o wavedash or fox, or Marth.
Basically it may not be all super powerful like it is always coming out to be. But to get better you need every edge you can find. and Wave-dash is one of them.
(Don't need it?) I say you don't need it with some characters. In my opinion: Peach, Zelda, (Ganon?) Bowser DK +More. too lazy to type more. I still wavedash with peach adn zelda If I truly think they are gonna land just barely short of my char.
On Fox I can Run all around the stage using dash dance + (wave-dash) Used for when I go to far for dash dance to work. And I stay out of range until my opponent throws an attack and miss I run in grab jab or up+smash ect.
My opponents when they come at me with aerials I can Shield. Then they think "Oh he's gonna shield grab i'll be sure to make my aerial hit behind him." That's when I have shield of for a split second and wave-dash backwards so where they were going to land (Behidn me) they are now infront of me to grab. My friend sex kicks with falco behind me alot to avoid getting Shield grabbed. or Down Air behind me.
Good for grabbing the ledge quick.
Now wave-dash is situational and imo only good for like some characters. (I couldn't live with samus w/o wavedash or fox, or Marth.
Basically it may not be all super powerful like it is always coming out to be. But to get better you need every edge you can find. and Wave-dash is one of them.
(Don't need it?) I say you don't need it with some characters. In my opinion: Peach, Zelda, (Ganon?) Bowser DK +More. too lazy to type more. I still wavedash with peach adn zelda If I truly think they are gonna land just barely short of my char.
- Status