Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[#HBC | ѕoup]

The cop being around would have made it work.

Now, everyone might as well just try to win as we cluster**** our way through the tournament with no direction until either town or scum inevitably win.

Or you listen to me instead because I can ensure that won't happen.

 

[Circus]

Except that you just told us that you noticed it.

Yeah. AFTER he died. Like I said before, things become more interesting with hindsight.

 

[ranmaru]

It can be ****tier for you as a replacement at this point in the game, I understand that and I'm sorry, but it is similar. It's still 'not reading'. I only asked for you to read enough to get some sort of read on people and understand why they have such reads now.

I'm sure things happen early game that you CAN get a read from. That's why I say, go read. If you have a busy life, I'm sorry, but try to break it up into bits then. It's kind of needed from a slot like you. To me, you are just talking mechanics and have a few weak reads. I want more than that. Otherwise you are dead to me.

I hardly have anything that I would consider a reliable read

Reason you should read early game. It's obviously going to have some mechanic discussion but you can EASILY skim that and read what is important when it comes to READING. There ARE mafia in the game, which means they will act a certain way to seem town (I would think). You can try to read from that, if you aren't scum. So don't sit there and say that you aren't going to read the early game because it'll only have mechanics, BECAUSE THAT ISN'T TRUE. Don't forget that we aren't here to simply PLAY THE MECHANICS GAME, there are scum to be found.

Read the damn game. Somehow, someway. Do it your way, your pace, but just do it. Otherwise to me it feels like an excuse not to contribute and to cruise through.

 

[ranmaru]

Wait. Wait. Wait. Uhhh...this could be a town shot. I mean yeah, a really stupid one, but If I recall correctly there are more ~special~ roles around. I kinda wanna delve into this but I'd just be opening a bag of WIFOM.

Soup, you explained you were over-thinking here. Can you explain why you were considering other options? Just wondering.

 

[ranmaru]

PJB, WOTT, tell me you guys have a problem with Circus not reading, and due to that, has no reliable reads? If you guys don't, just say so.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Alright, while it's bad luck that Rake got himself shot, this game is very much winnable. All we need is strategy and planning things, along with cooperation with one another. I guess this is obvious enough, but Potassium's attitude is not going to win us this game. I actually see the Cop dying a bit of a bittersweet thing. As mentioned before, with the cop dead, people are going to just cheat without repercussion. However, with moderation, we can assure that doesn't happen. This game is now a simple guess-and-check, and I'm going to fully enforce a policy of LAL (Lynch All Liars) here. If you're town, you shouldn't have any opposition and you shouldn't have to lie about anything. Now, onto the more intricate things.

I want everyone to make an oath that they won't do anything in their match phase until things are arranged. Do not play, do not make a move. It's going to very much matter who is pitted up against who and then we proceed with wielding and dealing there. I feel this would be much more easier with an example, so i'll try my best.

Let's say I'm pitted up against Pawn in the next match phase. I obviously suspect Pawn so it should be my utmost priority to win. However, some people might not be okay with me winning due to whatever reason that might be. Instead of forcing you all to trust me, I'll do the heavy work and keep a tally on a mod-esque vote-count of who should be given the win in a phase, which will be majority voted in the thread. Is this not agreeable? It presents an order and allows to keep match phases in check. Obviously, if the results are contradictory of the majority, something is fishy. Simple, is it not? Am I making sense here? Would you all agree with this?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

MY #2993 IS HIGHLY IMPORTANT AND I WILL MAKE SURE YOU READ IT BECAUSE I NEED EVERYONE ON BOARD WITH THIS

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Soup, you explained you were over-thinking here. Can you explain why you were considering other options? Just wondering.

I didn't understand why it happened, but now I do. See my theory about all this.

I basically have this game figured out to a tee, and after really thinking about it, I'm certain I'm correct. Would you like me to elaborate further on it?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'm obviously not going to expect for my plan to work out in late-game when it's down to 6 or so players in the winner's bracket, but we can guarantee that it is only townies in the winning bracket by following my plan.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

inthink im fine with the plan soup, need to talk to dietz doe

 

[Circus]

It can be ****tier for you as a replacement at this point in the game, I understand that and I'm sorry, but it is similar. It's still 'not reading'. I only asked for you to read enough to get some sort of read on people and understand why they have such reads now.

I'm sure things happen early game that you CAN get a read from. That's why I say, go read. If you have a busy life, I'm sorry, but try to break it up into bits then. It's kind of needed from a slot like you. To me, you are just talking mechanics and have a few weak reads. I want more than that. Otherwise you are dead to me.




Reason you should read early game. It's obviously going to have some mechanic discussion but you can EASILY skim that and read what is important when it comes to READING. There ARE mafia in the game, which means they will act a certain way to seem town (I would think). You can try to read from that, if you aren't scum. So don't sit there and say that you aren't going to read the early game because it'll only have mechanics, BECAUSE THAT ISN'T TRUE. Don't forget that we aren't here to simply PLAY THE MECHANICS GAME, there are scum to be found.

Read the damn game. Somehow, someway. Do it your way, your pace, but just do it. Otherwise to me it feels like an excuse not to contribute and to cruise through.

Ran, you're missing the actual point of what I'm saying. Yes, I probably could prioritize this game more and actually speedread those first 60+ pages. Just as, with expert guides, unlimited resources and time to train, I could climb Mount Everest. But I do not have that time. The only reason I'm talking to you right now is because I have today off of work. I recognize that there are probably posts from the early game that could indicate alignment, but it is still the case that I have to dig through LOTS of posts that don't matter to find them, and even then, it would just be me forming an opinion on players with no way of checking my work (no flips other than Rake now, which is not a useful flip for examining things prior to actions taken toDay). I just have to trust my own intuition, which is far from infallible. That would probably be enough to at least get the ball rolling in a normal mafia game, where you can lynch people and get flips and coordinate PRs, but in this game, that would be an incredible waste of my time. Even if I did come back from it all with a strong scum read on someone, it would be likely take me days, meaning I would have missed out on all of the current discussion, and all I would be able to do is cast my vote for our ONE REMOVAL IN THE GAME, based only on soft evidence and outdated information. That is not beneficial to us.

I'm not saying that I'm never going to form reads. Indeed, while I don't feel comfortable about my reads to jump on someone's back yet, they're developing. I'm treating this Day as if it is my D1. That is all I can do. I will come to opinions on people as things progress, just as you all did on your actual D1. That is the best use of my time. Not going back and reading discussions that have been dead and buried for over a month while everyone else talks current events and leaving me even further out of the loop. If that is so unacceptable to you that you can't even fathom me as town, then I don't know what to tell you. You have your removal vote if you think I deserve it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Can you elaborate on the bolded? What do you mean by "evidence I received in thread?"

I asked Rake when he received the message he got. he said it was back in august. This was just a few pages ago.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Washed where are you. ;-; You are the only person I can trust that can post alot in thread and bounce ideas with me.

games+homework+marching+artwork+music+friend time sorry i'm here for the moment

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Quoting this so you read this when you're back here.

Rake flipped town and that is something we, and everyone, needs to look at. His interactions now take a new light and how people handled his slot, even more so when people put it under scrutiny, is something that is going to help us with our removal choice.

I don't like Soup more off a Rake town flip, but I'm gonna reread interactions before I can get a list, but something I think we need look at asap for removal targeting.

Except Rake's interactions were rather meaningless because there aren't many to notate. Remember how I said he had little presence early and kept harping on that fact? While I assume that was intentional due to him being the cop, in the same breath, that means he didn't really create any notable interactions. He was clearly following popular scumreads at the time by investigating Shoco and Kantrip and the only particular read that differs from anyone is his Circus read, which he was starting to rethink towards the end.

I think the only significant part about that was the outburst he made during last match phase where, when pressured about what happened in his match against Gheb, he had some comment about how Gheb played like that because he knew Rake was town or something. That's about it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

guise guise guise guise guise guise guise guise!

Gheb had Rake as a townread when EVERYONE thought he was scum. Cuz he knew he was scum. Then Gheb disappears without a trace, and life goes on for awhile. Then Circus replaces in, and Rake drops dead.

Circus clearly noticed something in Rake's play. I think he decided he had all he needed to pull the trigger.

kittaneyebrowraise.gif

**** i miss my computer

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Circus is scum. Discuss?

what's there to discuss, this is the same damn conclusion i've been at since match 1. what are you playing at here?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Jerkus, you #2980 intrigues me. You got a good head on your shoulders. You're thinking very logically and I've honestly liked most of your posts ever since you've replaced in. Ranmaru just has unrealistic standards for people and gets upset if things don't work out in exactly the way he expects them to. It's why he tends to misread people on meta. Anyways, I wanna know what you think of my plan. You raised good points about Cycle 2.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

first off, if it was anyone in pur room it was GLG. I doubt the message was connected to the kill now because each mafiat only affects one phase, and the message was recieved at night whilr rake got axed during morning, so it is two different scummers doing it. morning phase scummer might have used this to influence his shot, but i dont think message was the cause if the shot action itself.
Joker, rake had mad obvious tourney crumbs and i think gheb picked up on that and was the basis of his town read, those crumbs were actually what caused me to take a second look at rake in the first place.also gheb thought scum didnt know who each other were so he was either wifoming us on that or scumgheb had no idea who his mates were so he still had to scumhunt on it to figurw it out.
Ryu, why soup more scum on rake town?
Laundry, who if not pawn? fyi we did think over our hotel room but the only one it might be is glg

I actually don't think it would be. I know my logic against him being scum isn't very founded (as I have him exclusively as not the poisoner and nothing else), but I can't see scum at the position he's at.

Where were Rake's mad obvious cop crumbs? And why didn't you outright say this last night in the room?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I wouldn't remove Circus over Pawn. And even then, I'm not sure if I even wanna remove someone still. I don't understand what Jerkus has done wrong since his replacement, and he's really shaping up the slot for me. Perhaps I'm a bit biased but so far he's been generally agreeable and literally willing to nearly everything. Even if he's MAF, he's certainly not a determent, compared to Pawn who isn't even here and isn't likely to go along with anything.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I was trying to make it look like I was a likely cop guess, aka I never cheated in any of my games and played less front line.

I noticed the cop can't cheat part and started to play around making sure I fit as a likely cop target, because what I think some people forgot about is that by cheating they tell scum they aren't the cop.

Well it worked because you hung around on my list. I was wondering if others were taking this approach.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I wouldn't remove Circus over Pawn. And even then, I'm not sure if I even wanna remove someone still. I don't understand what Jerkus has done wrong since his replacement, and he's really shaping up the slot for me. Perhaps I'm a bit biased but so far he's been generally agreeable and literally willing to nearly everything. Even if he's MAF, he's certainly not a determent, compared to Pawn who isn't even here and isn't likely to go along with anything.

because he's still ghebslot and that slot is shady beyond belief even if jerkus himself is doing better.

just because he's being agreeable doesn't mean much right now, our biggest weapon against them just got shot.

now tell me, why pawn?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

He's been generally wishy-washy about everything and I suspect how he's won his matches. His scum-read on Rake out of the gate really bothered and I feel he was just riding the wave about the whole thing. Nothing about him is credible or worth-while at all. I'm not sure how I feel about Kantplay suddenly acting defeatist and that it's the end of the world because we lost the tourney cop.

 

[Kantrip]

Dude don't misconstrue my behaviour right now.

I'm not acting defeatist because of losing the tourney cop. It just spells the end for my idea.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Well, great. Rest in peace Kantrip's idea. Listen to me instead.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Alright, I got a break for lunch and I've been wanting to post since this morning. This post won't be as formatted as it would on computer, so forgive me.

I see us handling this situation in two ways.

1. We bye washedlaundry, don't use the removal. This is a much more safer alternative as I feel the risk/reward of removing circus doesn't stack up. Were already down one town aligned member, and I don't feel we need to put ourselves in a hole deeper. Even the factor of being correct seems risky. We want to ensure townies are in placement and getting wins. I know it sounds really obvious, but work with me here. PJB's theory about jerkus shooting rake doesn't make sense because he just replaced in and that shot seemed really orchestrated. I think maf have somewhat of a rolecop only in the sense that they can contact specific roles but the player is not revealed. When rake responded saying they thought he was cop or whatnot, he fell into their trap. Its obvious to me now that someone was given the signal to use his gun then, which implies some sort of communication between scum. I don't think they're in a qt per se, but this rolespycop whatever obviously can coordinate and contact who he pleases. This is all theory but I feel its relevant, as it as it helps discern motives. Getting back to my original point, its safer to not use the removal. I think if were really concerned about placement, we can coordinate matches. Jerkus, are you okay with losng your match intentionally if asked to? If you're concerned about jerkus then just knock him down further in the bracket and try and make other townies place higher. Without a tourney cop, it will be realy easy to cheat now and if we don't coordinate and pla ahead, people re just going to cheat freely and without repercussion. We have to take a more direct approach here.

>handling it in two ways
>mentions only 1?????

i don't wanna use the removal right now as i have to rethink my plan of action from the moment onward. i'm sorry if you guys want to react but i think removing right now would be an overreaction. i still want the results of this match phase to play out before i consider doing anything else. i'll agree with that part, soup.

i really wanna see you guys try to coordinate matches right now without knowing what they are. you may as well bye me and then deal with it in the match phase. expecting people to follow an objective plan when it's based on the subjectivity of reads is going to fall hilariously short at some point in the game. hell, just from my perspective, i'm not throwing a game against wott or pjb just because they drew me and people think they're townier than i am. i'll play a fair game but that's about it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Well, great. Rest in peace Kantrip's idea. Listen to me instead.

gonna have to make me trust you first

 

[Wots All This Then?]

i did right at the beginning of night phade beforenthe ddos, reread the hotel room

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

While I don't believe that any throwing has occured for other MAF, I believe that there is information being tossed around right now due to that phone *******. I don't think MAF are allowed to communicate with each other and I had a huge paragraph as to why that is and I've been waiting to be prompted to say it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

2. We remove pawn or jerkus. Use the bye on someone else. I'm honestly all for taing the risk here if the ends justify the means. I feel as if there is a huge possibility of both being maf, but I m ooking at this much more mechanical. If we remove jerkus and he's town, then pawn claims a top spot along with me, and since I really suspect pawn, this is something I don't want to deal with. I think we should look back at matches a bit more and question them further. Pawns winning streak is really fishy in its own regard, along with gheb, but the difference is that we've concluded that rake is town, and there were no ulterior motives. Who was paw up against in his two matches? Ill look into this more when I'm on a computer.

i really suspect circus, others suspect pawn, and you've got questionable decisions in your record this game, i don't trust any of the top 3 right now.

pawn beat kantrip (who has refused to cheat this game for some reason) and rake (who can't cheat this game).

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

gonna have to make me trust you first

What do I gain coordinating all this? I'm simply giving you all the tools and telling you what to do, I'm not deciding what happens.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

While I don't believe that any throwing has occured for other MAF, I believe that there is information being tossed around right now due to that phone *******. I don't think MAF are allowed to communicate with each other and I had a huge paragraph as to why that is and I've been waiting to be prompted to say it.

why the **** are you waiting to drop anything anymore, we need to gain our edge back.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Alright, I was hoping for you (or someone) to contest me but here's what I think.

The MAF cannot directly communicate with each other. They don't know each other besides the phone MAF who is basically a Spy. He doesn't know the names of his partners, but he does know the roles of them. He can leave anonymous messages and drop information at any time to them. This is not limited to the townies, as proven by Rake dying.

This also makes sense with Nabe's advice, claiming that we should play more characters. Nabe encouraging getting to know the roster better because if you keep using the same person, that guy with the phone is gonna figure it out eventually and find a way to beat you. Now, with my plan, we can completely cross out this completely. It doesn't involve anything else but cooperation (are you tired of me saying this already) and it promotes order.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

What do I gain coordinating all this? I'm simply giving you all the tools and telling you what to do, I'm not deciding what happens.

See that's the thing with both your plan and Kantrip's: you both are making the plan but then putting it out of your hands so that if it blows up in your faces (which it will, again, objective plan based on the subjectivity of reads) you can say that it's not your fault. Throw in the fact that you safely have six points so you're safe in a lot of situations right now and you're looking to be in a decent position regardless as long as you don't draw Wott, PJB, or Ran. Even then, what's town gonna do at the moment, give your opponent a color buff that is pretty much a guarantee not to lose the round rather than a guarantee to win it?

Am I missing something or do you just plainly not get it? Both of your plans hinged on town being able to punish any suspicious play. We've lost that through my mistake. Scum's pretty free to do whatever they like right now.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Phone cop sends anonymous message to Tourney Cop
Rake claims he got the message
Phone cop signals MAF partner to shoot Rake

and here we are.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Alright, I was hoping for you (or someone) to contest me but here's what I think.

The MAF cannot directly communicate with each other. They don't know each other besides the phone MAF who is basically a Spy. He doesn't know the names of his partners, but he does know the roles of them. He can leave anonymous messages and drop information at any time to them. This is not limited to the townies, as proven by Rake dying.

This also makes sense with Nabe's advice, claiming that we should play more characters. Nabe encouraging getting to know the roster better because if you keep using the same person, that guy with the phone is gonna figure it out eventually and find a way to beat you. Now, with my plan, we can completely cross out this completely. It doesn't involve anything else but cooperation (are you tired of me saying this already) and it promotes order.

i must of skimmed it. lay it out in a step-by-step pattern and tell me how it's so different from kantrip's tiering bull**** because i don't see much of a difference right now.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Phone cop sends anonymous message to Tourney Cop
Rake claims he got the message
Phone cop signals MAF partner to shoot Rake

and here we are.

Providing that that's indeed exactly how it works. I still think it's plausible that was a trigger for a delayed execution even if that's more farfetch'd.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

See that's the thing with both your plan and Kantrip's: you both are making the plan but then putting it out of your hands so that if it blows up in your faces (which it will, again, objective plan based on the subjectivity of reads) you can say that it's not your fault. Throw in the fact that you safely have six points so you're safe in a lot of situations right now and you're looking to be in a decent position regardless as long as you don't draw Wott, PJB, or Ran. Even then, what's town gonna do at the moment, give your opponent a color buff that is pretty much a guarantee not to lose the round rather than a guarantee to win it?

Am I missing something or do you just plainly not get it? Both of your plans hinged on town being able to punish any suspicious play. We've lost that through my mistake. Scum's pretty free to do whatever they like right now.

Wrong? If someone wins a game and they weren't given the Okay to do it, they're gonna look pretty ****ing terrible. If it doesn't work, It's my fault. I'll take the blame. I'll shoulder being wrong.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

@ran I wouldn't cry if he got removed; I suspect pawn and jerkus equally, with a slight favor on pawn. Also, I know. It was late and I was overthinking

again

why pawn over jerkus. you've talked very little about that slot to my memory. i don't give a **** about why you don't want jerkus as much anymore as you've said little(?) to anything at all about why you even have pawn on a similar level.

 

[Kantrip]

It's really not different.

At this point we should obviously make sure we let mod-clears win (but are we even going to have any mod-clears?) but anything else there's no point.

 

[Kantrip]

Wrong? If someone wins a game and they weren't given the Okay to do it, they're gonna look pretty ****ing terrible. If it doesn't work, It's my fault. I'll take the blame. I'll shoulder being wrong.

This is literally exactly what I was saying.

But so what? What do we do to that person? All the scum could claim at the start of cycle 2 and what could we do about it?