Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'm considering how I'm reading Kantrip right now

wow there you go

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fab, how about you stop being responsive to soup's attempt to derail this thread?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

lol this game

nabe im dying right now

 

[Super Fabulous]

I'm considering how I'm reading Kantrip right now

wow there you go

So that's what you find fishy, your read on kantrip? So just because Kantrip lost means he is possibly not scum?

Fab, how about you stop being responsive to soup's attempt to derail this thread?

I started this, wouldn't make sense for me not to talk with him when I have concerns.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Pawn since this is about you, I want to know what you think of this recent discussion.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

 

[pawndidater2]

I didn't cheat.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Dietz here, I haven't read up since last time I posted yet but I've been doing some paperwork with possible bracket scenarios and I think I've got some info for people now.


My assumptions going in in the case of an 11 man bracket:

• The person with the highest score gets a bye in winners
• As a result of the odd number of people one of the first round losers from the winner's bracket would get a bye upon being sent to losers.

The way I see it the most important factor in brackets is going to be the overall number of times we get to fight Town vs Scum matches and therefore have a chance to knock them out of the tournament, so I did the math on a few scenarios to see how bad it would be if the 11 man bracket happened and it looks pretty ok.


Worst case scenario being that no Scum vs Scum matches happen to force a Scum loss, and all 4 scum are in winners bracket to start:

7 Expected Town vs. Scum matches in worst case scenario without removal. (original 12 man)
6 Expected Town vs. Scum matches in worst case scenario with removal used. (11 man start)
It gets weirder with a townie getting the bye in the removal scenario, but if all 4 scum get in the winners bracket then it's still 6 Expected Town vs Scum in worst case scenario.
If not all scum get into winners bracket that starts to improve across the board as you'd expect. For instance I worked out if the removal happens, a town member gets a bye, and one scum is already in losers: then the total expected T v S matches jumps to 8.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

PS: Shaco cheated in our second round as did we since he won.

Dunno about the first.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Gotta head out to lunch now, I'll probably be gone the rest of the day at least after that, maybe back night to read but I might not be.

Later thread.

 

[pawndidater2]

Pawn since this is about you, I want to know what you think of this recent discussion.

Not entirely sure what you're asking..

 

[Super Fabulous]

Because it's much more relevant than what is being said right now and now that matches are being played there should be something to be said about them. I personally find it fishy and I'm considering how I'm reading Kantrip right now because I believ(ed) that scum would more than likely take the win against a townie unless they cheated. I don't think I'm going to get an answer from Pawn stating if he cheated or not.

What do you think of this paragraph? That's basically what it stems from.

 

[pawndidater2]

Atm it's probably good to be thinking along these lines. Information from the matches should help our reads.

Personally I think if Kanty is scum he didn't cheat because so many people have him as a scum-lean he thought the cop/Joker would Review/Spectate our match and figure him out.

 

[pawndidater2]

I don't like:
WOTT

To me this says he's trying to bring something to the table that no one's considered in order to appear townie and failing epically.

Nah don't feel like comitting that amount of time to this game. Sorry. I'm going back to catching up on anime. Cya nerds.

He realizes he can't back this up and tries to leave.

Lmao just give me a moment to find the eww moments. He has so many posts jezus ****.

He realizes that leaving is a bad idea.

Just go through the threads and count the amounts of time WOTT says something that makes you go "ewww".

Trying to create a false image in our minds so he doesn't have to.

basically this all reads grimy as **** to me hes way jumpy on very little or very stupid things even on people he has townread (PP IIRC?) just keepin options open

Attempts to create a case.

Ill send Seph a PM to come in and do some detective work that guy has mad swag

Realizes he has royally ****ed himself and scampers off to someone who might be able to help.

Basically disagree with Xoni's read on WOTT which is kinda silly since he's going though all that trouble making posts about him.

Other head tries to cover for him.

So forgive me if I scumread you.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Atm it's probably good to be thinking along these lines. Information from the matches should help our reads.

Personally I think if Kanty is scum he didn't cheat because so many people have him as a scum-lean he thought the cop/Joker would Review/Spectate our match and figure him out.

So you are ok with the fact Soup found you fishy because his scumread didn't win? That's my angle here.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Have you found a replacement for Ryker yet? I'm kinda just sitting here twiddling my thumbs.

I can't comment on the goings-on of your match in public.

I don't look for replacements for players. That responsibility is each player's.

 

[pawndidater2]

why are you assuming this is about pawn good ****ing god read my posts

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Nah, soup is backpedaling. I don't know why he's doing it. Maybe he wants to back out of his kantrip read because I think kantrip is town, and watt is kinda sorta coming around to that conclusion as well. Maybe he's just dumb. I dunno.

He's reading way too deep into **** that is meaningless. There's absolutely zero reason to think there's anything fishy about pawn beating kantrip, regardless of how you read either of them. Now he's trying to say that kantrip not winning his match is the reason he's reconsidering his scumread on kantrip? That's dumb. There's all manner of wild assumptions being made there. Why does not winning automatically mean he didn't cheat? Why does not cheating make him town? Why would pawn cheating make him suspicious? It's all baseless nonsense.

It's been stated multiple times that townies can, and should cheat in their matches. There is almost zero reason for a townie not to cheat. The reason to not cheat is universal, the tourney cop might see you. Being scum/town does not play into it at all. In fact, townies should be more comfortable cheating in their matches than the mafia should, because the tourney cop is probably gonna watch the matches of scummy players, not obvtownies. I'm literally banging my head against the wall here, because this IS NOT the first time this discussion has been had, and yet here's soup jumping to all the wrong conclusions.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

What you should be asking yourselves is "why is soup using match results as an excuse to change his reads".

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

lol i ****ing can't deal with this game anymore hahaha when did i ever imply that im changing my read all i stated is that im considering based on the results

There is almost zero reason for a townie not to cheat.

Why do you think Kantrip did not cheat, then?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

lol i ****ing can't deal with this game anymore hahaha when did i ever imply that im changing my read all i stated is that im considering based on the results



Why do you think Kantrip did not cheat, then?

because he didn't care if he beat pawn or not, cuz he read him as town. Like we all do.

He also may have thought that because some people scumread him, he could have been a potential target for tourney cop review, meaning that cheating was a completely pointless risk. You get 3 points for winning, 1 for losing, and none for getting caught cheating. Since his opponent was town, there's no reason not to just take your 1 point and go home.

There's WAAAAAY to many possibilities for why a match may have played out a certain way. It's all WIFOM. It's not the concrete information you're desperately looking for. There aren't flips, and there's no equivalent. Get used to it.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

nobody reads anybody's posts anymore we all just make assumptions and hope we can bull**** our way into some sort of believable argument by breaking out of mafia dictionary and using words like 'backpedlaing' or 'ate' i think it's pretty damn clear where i'm coming from if you read what i'm saying but no SOUP IS BACKPEDALING!!11! and it's just ****ing lol give me a break

incoming peanut gallery saying this is ate without substantiating as to why it's scummy

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

because he didn't care if he beat pawn or not, cuz he read him as town. Like we all do.

He also may have thought that because some people scumread him, he could have been a potential target for tourney cop review, meaning that cheating was a completely pointless risk. You get 3 points for winning, 1 for losing, and none for getting caught cheating. Since his opponent was town, there's no reason not to just take your 1 point and go home.

There's WAAAAAY to many possibilities for why a match may have played out a certain way. It's all WIFOM. It's not the concrete information you're desperately looking for. There aren't flips, and there's no equivalent. Get used to it.

So you're going to fundamentally ignore an important factor of the game because you can't look at a different perspective then what you're used to? Matches aren't there just because they're pretty to look at. They're there to use as a tool for scumhunting. I'm pretty certain Nabe has implied this enough and there is no reason to continue on the track we are going because all we have is a bunch of people going on and on and on about their un-substantiated reads and trust me, I'm part of that group too. All I can do is scum-read Kantrip. I can't vote him. I can't do anything. Do you understand the frustration I have with this? I am in no way in charge of whether Kantrip lives or dies. Right now, because he lost his match, this plays more in my favor. However, this goes against what I've been thinking, therefore I want more information about the matches. It would be foolish to state that it is just WIFOM because Nabe has implied that Mafia has much more of an advantage to win against a townie and he has also implied that we shouldn't be afraid to cheat. Okay, I'm gonna go over this one more time. My scum-read, Kantrip, got 3-0'd. Don't you think I should be a little ****ing concerned about this? I'm not stating anything other than concern. I'm only stating that I think something is a bit weird with the result. I feel like a broken ****ing record.

Kantrip, why do you think you lost? What is your read on Pawn based on the results? Do you believe he cheated? Why didn't you cheat? Should the Tourney Cop investigate your game? Is there any game that you think needs investigating?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm pretty sure Matches are there as the mechanic for what determines who will win the game. They are not a tool for scumhunting. You have it completely ass backwards. We use our scumhunting to help us figure out how to build a favorable bracket. We don't use the bracket to figure out who is scum.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Like, seriously, it's impossible to use the bracket and match results to inform our scumhunting. That would be like deciding who to lynch next, by looking at the other lynches in a game where flips aren't revealed.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

In the future, if you want to use whether or not somebody cheated as a method of rooting out scumminess, you need to ask them about whether they're gonna cheat or not BEFORE their match, not after. Then you need the tourney cop to catch them in a lie.

Doing what you're doing right now, doesn't inform us of anything. If either Kantrip or Pawn were scum, there's nothing you could gain from talking about their match, because they can lie to fit whatever scenario they want. There's nothing concrete here.

 

[Kantrip]

soup, me losing should not change your read on me. Scum can play games normally. They don't have to cheat. Of course scum wants to win, but since I am a player likely to have his match reviewed by the tourney cop, as scum I probably wouldn't have cheated either so this whole thing should be null. Where is your assumption that scum should beat town coming from?​

 

[Kantrip]

PS: Shaco cheated in our second round as did we since he won.

Dunno about the first.

Wait a sec.

Like, did you guys play it out? Or did he just flat-out win when you cheated?

If the latter, he is confirmed scum and we can use our removal on him.

 

[Kantrip]

Dietz here, I haven't read up since last time I posted yet but I've been doing some paperwork with possible bracket scenarios and I think I've got some info for people now.


My assumptions going in in the case of an 11 man bracket:

• The person with the highest score gets a bye in winners
• As a result of the odd number of people one of the first round losers from the winner's bracket would get a bye upon being sent to losers.

The way I see it the most important factor in brackets is going to be the overall number of times we get to fight Town vs Scum matches and therefore have a chance to knock them out of the tournament, so I did the math on a few scenarios to see how bad it would be if the 11 man bracket happened and it looks pretty ok.


Worst case scenario being that no Scum vs Scum matches happen to force a Scum loss, and all 4 scum are in winners bracket to start:

7 Expected Town vs. Scum matches in worst case scenario without removal. (original 12 man)
6 Expected Town vs. Scum matches in worst case scenario with removal used. (11 man start)
It gets weirder with a townie getting the bye in the removal scenario, but if all 4 scum get in the winners bracket then it's still 6 Expected Town vs Scum in worst case scenario.
If not all scum get into winners bracket that starts to improve across the board as you'd expect. For instance I worked out if the removal happens, a town member gets a bye, and one scum is already in losers: then the total expected T v S matches jumps to 8.

You have all these numbers wrong. Reread the OP. The bracket is 8-man winners with 3 people starting in losers. No byes in winners. I asked the MOD in a PM and was told that any changes to the numbers (modkills, removal, etc) will come out of the loser's bracket and the winner's bracket will always be 8-man.

 

[Kantrip]

Does anyone know if, when you are cheating, you still play out the match?

 

[Picture Perfect]

J, you're one pathetic hypocrite. You complain about this game devolving yet your petty comments on how people are bad and stupid and don't contribute anything to this game and your refusal to comment on things directly and just throw out general complaints are one of the key contributions as to why this game keeps getting nowhere. When you play like this I don't even need to dig out any quotes to make it clear why you need to go. If you're actually town then you're currently doing your best at making it look like the complete opposite.

Hi kids, Laundry here with another "wtf are u smokin pass the blunt" comment.

I'm sorry, but where were you when the game was still in morning phase and I was doing every gogdamn thing I could to get town to work together? I haven't played much during this phase because I didn't anticipate the game to be this active and I've been rather lazy about it, no, but simultaneously the fact that you overlook that, let alone your constant attempts to undermine everything I was doing, throw FUD at it, and get town to distrust it leads me to distrust your slot and your intentions. Now J linked me this and I'm amused as **** that you even have the balls to say we're not helping when everything I've seen about your slot has suggested that you're the antagonistic one, refusing to answer anyone and undermining town's attempts to gel together and get any progress by stymying conversation. Typically, that's scum play. I know you're Gheb, but I've also heard that you play like a stubborn ass when scum. Am I wrong to assume scum intent over town intent here?

Lemme play some BL2 with Gova, then I'm getting back to this.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I wanted to say something but then I got a head-ache. Give me a second.

 

[Picture Perfect]

oh my gog you ****ers added 11 ****ing pages **** all of you

 

[Picture Perfect]

1-So you're saying that if we get a confirmed mafiat, it's not likely that he'll have been in a hotel room with the other mafiats early on?

Probably, albeit I'd assume the mafia tried to be in a hotel room originally and failed horrendously.

3-Isn't room four your room?

Yeh, didn't have a good read on Koops/Ruy at the time. Feeling better about Ruy since his return, not 100% sure. I think the double scum is currently in room 2, if that. We'll see.

 

[Picture Perfect]

What pattern?

We can go back to the same place or choose somewhere else. Scum is only gonna get an accurate poison if they are in a hotel room with others and play martyr for their team.

You act like they can't designate someone to be the fall guy. If nothing else, it'd create a good amount of distrust amongst the room.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Hey sorry guys. Probably should have called V/LA but I've been short on time to sit down and look at anything with this game.

That said, I now have read through the rules more thoroughly and understand everything! I also have sense of purpose where before I felt no motivation to try to figure things out!

The Removal mechanic is very dangerous but also very beneficial if we can pull it off. We should only use it if we have TWO mafia members we are damn sure about.

Why two? Because we need the first mafia member we are sure about for the tourney cop at the end of this cycle. This mechanic is not one we choose, it happens no matter what. We want the tourney cop in the tournament, because it means a confirmed town slot in the game, but it also means a lot more than that as a result. I'm about to explain something that makes having the tourney cop in the bracket a HUGE BOON.

The tourney cop is MOD-confirmed town with no exceptions.

This is huge, and will yield us at least one free scummer just for having him in the bracket (in addition to the scummer he'll remove to make sure he gets in the bracket.)

If the tourney cop gets in the bracket, we make sure every one of his opponents purposely loses to him. I don't give a **** if that goes against some personal win-con (looking at you, Ruy) or if you don't like the idea of throwing a match. The tourney cop making his way through the tournament means we keep track of a confirmed townie. If, at any point, he loses a match, we'll know his opponent didn't listen and we can boot their *** next phase.

How do we ensure the tourney cop wins if he can't cheat, though?

Well, we know which colour of moves beat the others, and we have a built-in prisoner's dilemma style mechanic to give people an edge without cheating.Anyone who goes against the tourney cop in cycle 2 will choose their main, the tourney cop will choose their counterpick, and the two will communicate so that the tourney cop uses moves that beat the moves their opponent uses. Failure to comply and allow the tourney cop to beat you will mean an instant scum status in thread.

As I said, huge incentive to get the tourney cop into the tournament.

So we need to get at least one scummer that we're very certain about, and NOT USE THE REMOVAL MECHANIC ON HIM.

If we can get a second scummer we feel certain (and I mean CERTAIN) about, we can use the removal mechanic. It is too big a risk to treat it like a normal lynch or use it on a hunch.

That said, we still do want to find at least one scummer. The best way to do this is always to form reads as normal, which means everyone should be cooperating in thread and trying to be helpful and trying to scumhunt. Refusal to cooperate means people will think you're scum. While they can't lynch you for it, they can do a whole lot of other stuff to **** you over. Having everyone being vocal in thread makes it easier for the tourney cop to know which matches he wants to review. But when the tourney cop finds a cheater, we don't know whether it was a maf cheater or a town cheater, so that doesn't help us cement our reads. How can we find a scummer and be certain about it?

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier.

We should cheat against our scumreads.

If we cheat against our scumreads, it puts pressure on the scum team. They are suddenly forced to try to play townie in thread so people don't think they are scum. If people think they are scum, they will cheat against them. This forces mafia to use banned moves in order to win. But even better than that, is if you cheat against a mafia member and they use their banned moves style of cheating, you will lose even though you cheated. That makes it pretty damn clear that your opponent was mafia. If we agree to cheat against our scumreads, and we happen to be correct, that makes cheating a dangerous choice for them.

The tourney cop can find people cheating and make them auto-lose their match, as well. This choice isn't that crucial and is really up to the tourney cop to choose who they think best.


After saying all this, I realized I've adapted a playstyle of sitting on my stances and doing ****-all, but that's really a bad idea. Attitudes like soup's in this game are toxic towards our success as a collective town, and people treating the game in that manner should be viewed as scummy. There is no excuse for not trying to scumhunt, because we do have advantages at our disposal for catching scum should we get people we dislike in thread. From there, we can confirm them as scum, and even REMOVE THEM FROM THE GAME should we get lucky. We also have the ability to communicate with the tourney cop in the second cycle on which matches are good choices to review to kick the rest of the maf team out of the tournament. Even more incentive to develop scumreads. There is no excuse.

where was this for the entire morning phase **** you kantrip

That aside, this is actually pretty intelligent and I'm going to back it. I dunno whachu got against Soup though, he got his act together kinda. Mind pointing it out?

 

[Picture Perfect]

ebwop: why did i quote that i'm dumb

 

[Picture Perfect]

Explain why I would sit on a stance as scum and not as town.

Explain why sitting on a stance can't be creditied to laziness.

Explain why you act all "there's no reason to do anything" and then you start doing stuff? This post from you is content and you even say you "need to reread." Why? I thought there was no point in your POV?

I don't care about soup's AtE anymore, these contradictions in his play are pretty bad, and him acting all defeatist doesn't remedy that in the slightest. Scumread on soupy boy

I guess I need to read a post later.

The thing about Soup that gets me is that he continually sounds more like a frustrated townie and he's unsure and unmotivated. Yeh, he's been incredibly antagonistic but after some debate with him, his slot has started to look better. He's going to AtE, and he's going to be contradictory, but you have to remember not either are confirmed scumtells 100% of the time. I know Soup has a tendency to do those regardless of alignment. If you want to say he's scum for it, you're gonna have to go deeper than say "he's ateing and contradicting himself."

 

[Picture Perfect]

I want to be in a room with people I'm trying to get a read on, and I disliked soup when I requested the switch (as I do again).

J brought this up with me, actually, when we last talked about things. This was his assumed reason for your room swap, but I saw it as going either way and wasn't sure. There were reasons for either, and at the time I distrusted your slot.

 

[Picture Perfect]

So much to read, so little time to respond.

Basically, WATT is saying that my suggestion on how we should cover the cop is pointless, aye? Care to simplify your explanation on that?
Don't see why I should justify myself against Kantrip's points when it's obvious where the pro-town intention in my posts is coming from.

Also, I'm going to announce that I will not cheat in my game against Rake.

did scum hold a little pow-wow pregame to say "let's all just say random bull**** and when questioned on it, we'll just say it's obvious how protown it is and see if people buy our bull****" or what