Kirby the Copy Cat - Copy Ability Discussion (OLD)

[Asdioh]

Dude it's a projectile that can kill, against a character with no reflector. That's all you need to know.
Well, it also makes punishing Lucario's newly-increased upB landing lag easier, because oftentimes, Kirby's runspeed isn't enough to catch him, but an Aura Sphere probably will.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I'm trying to think of how useful Lucario's Aura Sphere would be against Lucario...

Don't get me wrong - it is a good ability to take. But many of the tricks I'm thinking of don't work as well without the sheer size from Aura scaling. Is it big enough to edgeguard with the charge? If so, that's a fun trick. B-reversals for mixups are obvious, edgeguarding is always great... Use the b-reversal charge for pressure, etc. Full charge is good for the KO power, but partial charge gives you more options...

God, I need to practice my Kirby. I'm not feeling him as much this game

It will still be better than having inhale. Lucario is a character that is almost impossible to gimp unless he is at an extremely low percent. So having Aura Sphere will just be better than having inhale and opens another option to kill with... kind of.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It will still be better than having inhale. Lucario is a character that is almost impossible to gimp unless he is at an extremely low percent. So having Aura Sphere will just be better than having inhale and opens another option to kill with... kind of.

I mean, pretty much all Lucario players aim for latching to the ledge while recovering, as he has tons of ending lag if he lands on the stage now. You can just hover over the ledge and trump him off into his death.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I mean, pretty much all Lucario players aim for latching to the ledge while recovering, as he has tons of ending lag if he lands on the stage now. You can just hover over the ledge and trump him off into his death.

Is Lucario one of the characters that you can trump into bair into? If that's true that's some good matchup info to know.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Is Lucario one of the characters that you can trump into bair into? If that's true that's some good matchup info to know.

I believe so. I've gotten quite a few kills on Lucario players (although this was online) by using B-Air after a ledge trump.

 

[|RK|]

I mean, pretty much all Lucario players aim for latching to the ledge while recovering, as he has tons of ending lag if he lands on the stage now. You can just hover over the ledge and trump him off into his death.

We can cancel extreme speed on stage, so as to mitigate the crazy landing lag.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I believe so. I've gotten quite a few kills on Lucario players (although this was online) by using B-Air after a ledge trump.

Do you know if there is a list of characters that you can ledge trump into bair with? I think it's pretty vital information, if not I guess I'll have to put some time into the lab and find out.

 

[Masonomace]

So also for some updating because I recently learned about it while testing Shulk stuff, Shulk crouching with Shield on makes him even more difficult to KO. I'm aware of Kirby having an exceptional crouch because of literally crouch canceling moves to deal 0% damage xD, but I thought I'd relay that here.

You thought that Shield Kirby is a borderline DK? Add crouching to the mix & now you're surviving even more-so than Bowser or perhaps Shield Shulk without crouching. This also applies to Kirby in general but more importantly for the MArts in case you have a MArt on that reduces weight & increases the damage you take, like say Jump Buster or Smash. D-smashes & downward angled F-smashes are less of a threat now for Kirby hopefully.

 

[Asdioh]

Do you know if there is a list of characters that you can ledge trump into bair with? I think it's pretty vital information, if not I guess I'll have to put some time into the lab and find out.

the best i have are these http://i.imgur.com/KUDLKTr.png https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeIHRwaql-A
you should be able to tell by testing which characters can be baired, and then which ones have similar trump distances

 

[WootSnorlax]

the best i have are these http://i.imgur.com/KUDLKTr.png https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeIHRwaql-A
you should be able to tell by testing which characters can be baired, and then which ones have similar trump distances

Yeah I saw this before but it's pretty difficult to see based on the various angles the camera's at. Smash Bros camera at it's finest here . Whenever I have time I will try to figure this out and post the results.

 

[The 0ne]

I think Kirby's Copy abilities ALL got buffed in Smash 4. Every single one. I now use it more so than usual, and it hasn't been failing me. Examples:
Kirby's Warlock Punch (Ganondorf): Still not as far as Ganon's, but about double the range of Brawl and has the same armor. Also is still even MORE powerful in the air, which the regular Ganondorf simply can't pull off. However, Kirby can jump six times from the ground...

Kirby's Shield Breaker (Marth/Lucina): Again, longer range, same damage and shield damage, and has tipper, unless it's Lucina's.

Kirby's Aura Sphere (Lucario): Actually deals 17% at full charge, as if Lucario were at 70%. huh.

Kirby's Giant Punch (Donkey Kong): Yet again, about double the range of Brawl, (in fact, like Warlock Punch, the hitbox extends past his hands a fair amount) same power, charge time and damage, with full super armor. However, must be sweetspotted in the air.

Kirby's Eruption (Ike): Has EXACT same hit area as Ike's, same damage, power, charge time, and super armor.

Kirby's Homing Attack (Sonic): actually has v.1.0.3 knockback. Heheheh....

Also, if you're against Dedede, always Copy him. ALWAYS. What are you going to lose? The ability to copy? Yes, for the same move, that has longer range and power and damage. AND since you can't copy, you can fast fall a Kirbykaze when pressing down would normally just make you copy.

 

[FlipFlopMist]

Kirby having no specials, then inhaling an enemy and getting a certain canon ability, i.e. Bomb from Link (or Sword, and Bomb if he inhales a bomb, lol) and Ninja from Sheik and Greninja, Parasol from Peach, etc.. Wow. That would be so cool. I mean, it would really play on his abilities thing, which... Is quite limited in the Smash series. There's probably just too much work involved, though. What if he instead copied a character's four specials slightly rebalanced for himself? Of course that's also without having any specials himself beforehand.

Wishful thinking aside, at the moment most of the times it feels a bit too much like a second thought gimmick that doesn't really blend into his playstyle, with only certain characters really being worth (or just more worth) the risk of going for the copy. Like with Ike, I don't see any use for Eruption at all. And when against Shulk, it's an incredible copy ability, that really challenges Shulk's own playstyle. G&W sausages, Diddy's peanut gun, Fox laser? Meh.

I wish they did some more with customs, he's really a character that could have gotten the Palutena/Mii treatment, at least. He has Ice Breath which would have been cool if his Ice hat popped up with it, but perhaps he could have gotten a charged Plasma shot for B (a toned down Thoron, really). A clone of Peach's Up-B could have been a custom, etc....

Ah, well, too much wishful thinking... It would be so satisfying to have an ever-changing playstyle like Kirby really is. I just wish his copy abilities were more centric or at least useful to his playstyle, rather than being negligible on several characters.

G&W is the best copy ability, it makes him look so amazing, a 3-D character that looks 2-D from all angles?(plus, Bacon spam is fun)

 

[Salad Bowl]

Actually I can see in doubles, shulk and kirby teams because it could definitely help kirby and its a great team

 

[The 0ne]

An add-on to my original comment: Zelda. When you copy Zelda, and this isn't true for any other character, you get a reflector; Nayru's Love. Now, in previous iterations, this was virtually useless, because reflecting Din's Fire almost never actually hurt Zelda because it was too far away, and that is actually still true now. However, now that she has the Phantom Slash, which by the way does not have an indefinite charge, that takes care of that matchup. And the offensive properties of Nayru's Love are always a perk too.

Sheik. Copying the Needles wasn't ever a terrible idea, because you can kind of out-camp Sheik, while lolcrouching like a troll under her own needles. You can also stuff her recovery with them, and when she thinks she can get a setup with the Burst Grenade, stuff that ****.

 

[|RK|]

Kay, so I played around with a couple of Lucario techs on the 3DS version (1.0.4, but still not sure if it's precisely the same as in the Wii U version...). Kirby's B-Reversals don't change his momentum nearly as much as Lucario's. You can still do them, obviously - just not with the same effects. You also won't be able to trap Lucario in ASC too long. You can, however, perform (you'll need to be pretty close for this) reverse Aura Sphere Charge -> pivot grab -> back throw -> B-reversal Aura Sphere for a healthy bit of damage at low percents.

B-throw to B-reversal Aura Sphere isn't guaranteed, but it's a fun thing to do.

 

[WootSnorlax]

Kay, so I played around with a couple of Lucario techs on the 3DS version (1.0.4, but still not sure if it's precisely the same as in the Wii U version...). Kirby's B-Reversals don't change his momentum nearly as much as Lucario's. You can still do them, obviously - just not with the same effects. You also won't be able to trap Lucario in ASC too long. You can, however, perform (you'll need to be pretty close for this) reverse Aura Sphere Charge -> pivot grab -> back throw -> B-reversal Aura Sphere for a healthy bit of damage at low percents.

B-throw to B-reversal Aura Sphere isn't guaranteed, but it's a fun thing to do.

Very interesting find. If you can get it on video I would love to see it in action.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I posted back on the first page of this topic about how charging Thoron all the way restored your midair jumps. This has been removed in 1.0.4 and the Wii U version.

 

[fromundaman]

They need to turn inhale into a command grab already



Anyway, on topic, I want to talk about some of the copy abilities I find useful:

-Megaman: I don't play this MU often enough from Kirby's point of view, but B-reverse and diagonal metal blades allow Megaman to combo into kill moves and free grabs. I am sure that despite his slower ground speed Kirby can get some of this too.
Also in a 1v1 scenario this skill allows you to stay in Megaman's blind spot while still applying pressure with projectiles. The ability to Zdrop this is also a godsend so if you have this ability don't forget you can throw the blade down to pick it back up for Z-drop follow ups later.
I am sure you can, like Megaman, use the Z-drop blade to combo into a Dair spike offstage by dropping the blade near the edge and Dair'ing a little bit past it. This makes a 2 layered wall where the blade actually knocks them back into the Dair, meaning they can't just air dodge through the spike.



-Pac Man: Oh god this ability is godlike. However to make best use of this ability, you have to understand what each fruit does:

*Cherry: Comes out fast but doesn't go far. Stays out a long time allowing you to regrab it for Z-drop shenanigans.

*Strawberry: A bit faster to come out than the cherry but slower than the peach. Just does a small hit. Probably the least useful fruit but can be useful to interrupt someone running at you.

*Peach: This is the fastest moving fruit (Not counting the key). It comes out very fast, has decent hitstun (Not enough to combo off of though) and is a fairly solid projectile.

*Apple: Here's where it starts getting fun. This projectile has good knockback (And can kill at high percents), bounces along the ground (Can go under other projectiles if timed correctly) and most importantly when thrown from the air goes at a 45 degree angle downwards. As a character with a billion jumps, Kirby can heavily abuse that, and it is very good for gimping due to the low trajectory. When Z dropped or thrown up/down it will bounce in place.

*Melon: SONIC BOOM! Anyone who's played Street Fighter knows what I'm talking about. This slow projectile has a TON of knockback and can kill at almost the same percents as the key. It travels slowly horizontally with a slight dip the longer it moves. This projectile forces a reaction and is slow enough that you can follow behind it to punish whatever that reaction may be. On top of that, on hit or block you can regrab the melon as it bounces off the opponent to use it again. Throwing it upwards makes it almost stand in place with an active hitbox, and down/zdrop makes it move very very slowly downwards. Use this for a safe approach. It clanks or beats out just about any projectile as well.

*Galaga ship: Oh the combos. This is definitely a combo extender. I have not played around enough with Kirby to know how to combo and regrab it at the same time, though I know Pac Man can with Fair and DA. I'm sure Kirby can too. When thrown it moves forward a bit before doing a loop and going up and away at the end. During this entire period it is active and can be regrabbed. On Battlefield it will hit the platforms when it does the loop and land there, allowing for easy Zgrabs. It will still do the loop when thrown up and down, though when Z-dropped it just tumbles and bounces once.

*Bell: This is the most massively underrated fruit this move has to offer. This item has a really weird angle, going up and forward then straight down, lingering after it lands allowing for a regrab. It stuns any opponent it hits, and can kill. In teams, this is pretty much the only fruit you should be using. In singles it's a bit less useful but still great. All of Kirby's throws leave them at good angles to get hit by the bell (% dependent) and it can be used to punish aerials and landings if you have good spacing. It's also good for getting back on stageas ledge-drop>DJ>Bell clears out the entire ledge area for Kirby (Pac Man can't do this as easily as his DJ brings him onstage). When thrown up, down or Zdropped the bell goes straight up and down, though it moves slower when Zdropped (I can't remember if it stuns when Z dropped either). The stun allows you to hit them with pretty much any aerial (Though I would assume Dair or Bair would be the go-to moves) and if you hit them on the ground all tilts, and DA work, and if you're close enough smash attacks as well.

*Key: This one is the most well known and the most straightforward. It travels fast, can kill and does good damage. I would suggest not using it until you have to close out a stock and instead use every other fruit the rest of the time to keep the opponent guessing on what's coming. Also charging to bell and *almost* to key then stopping means that when you want key you can double tap B and he'll do that last bit of charge to key then throw it, allowing you to surprise an opponent with a different fruit than what he thought you had. It can be grabbed, but the easiest way to do this is to get hit while charging to it, which is easier to do in teams than in singles, and significantly less dangerous. Never Z-drop this as you run the risk of giving it to your opponent.




Anyway I have to go but I'll come back and add more later.

 

[The 0ne]

Just a heads up, it's not a peach; it's an orange. And Inhale IS a command grab. Try it!

PS. Doesn't it just feel sooo awesome when you win with your opponents's neutral special? Especially when you know it better than they do. Like Samus's Charge Shot and other powerful projectiles are so great when you've killed them with it but they haven't done so to you.

 

[fromundaman]

A command grab acts like a grab and ignores shields. Ganon's choke and Bowser's koopa claw are examples of this.

Kirby's inhale, much like D3's, is an attack grab, meaning that while it does have a grab animation it acts like a normal attack in that it can be blocked and once it "hits" it will not be broken by a trade.

 

[The 0ne]

But I've inhaled shielding opponents many times!

 

[fromundaman]

But I've inhaled shielding opponents many times!

Only if they drop shield. You may go test it, won't work with the standard inhale unless shield is dropped, and at the edge of it's range you can even roll out from shield.

 

[|RK|]

Very interesting find. If you can get it on video I would love to see it in action.

Right - I'm away from my Wii U for a couple weeks (only have the 3DS version with me), but when I get back, I'll be sure to get you a video (it's easier for me to do B-reversals when I'm not using the 3DS, heh)!

 

[Triple R]

Only if they drop shield. You may go test it, won't work with the standard inhale unless shield is dropped, and at the edge of it's range you can even roll out from shield.

I am 100% confident you can inhale opponents while they are shielding. I even tested it myself and have hours of experience backing this up.

I'm pretty sure I know what you are talking about though, fromundaman. Since brawl they added something weird where if the opponent shields just at the right moment inhale doesn't seem to work. But this doesn't happen even close to 10% of the time.

 

[Nova The Silly One]

I am 100% confident you can inhale opponents while they are shielding. I even tested it myself and have hours of experience backing this up.

I'm pretty sure I know what you are talking about though, fromundaman. Since brawl they added something weird where if the opponent shields just at the right moment inhale doesn't seem to work. But this doesn't happen even close to 10% of the time.

Trust me, you can indeed inhale while somebody is shielding.

 

[Unknownkid]

Really? How close do you have to be so it works? I know I have players shield inhale (or else kirby players will not complain about this nerf).

...Well, now I think about it. Players are not really shielding "Inhale" but rather the "windbox" is being blocked. Just like the Windbellow Item can be blocked. The second the player lets go of shield the windbox takes effect and swallow the player.

 

[|RK|]

Oh, last thing about Aura Sphere... being that Lucario is taller, he has to wait until the AS has grown to a sufficient size in order to hit people hanging from the ledge. Kirby's Aura Sphere is of good enough size (and Kirby is close enough to the ground) to hit Lucario while he hangs from the edge.

On that note... Samus's Charge Shot will also hit people hanging on the edge.

 

[Nova The Silly One]

If I remember correctly, it's not an instant inhale but eventually the either stop pressing or come within perfect range for a sure inhale

 

[Aunt Jemima]

The windbox thing attached to Inhale that pulls opponents in IS NOT a command grab. The area directly in front of Kirby's mouth, however, is. It's how we are sometimes able to grab opponents through shields.

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... well that's good to know. I've had it blocked so many times I didn't realize there was an actual grab hit box anywhere.

Anyway when I get home I'll go into more powers.

 

[The 0ne]

So basically the Jumping Inhale custom is gahlike.

 

[Altair357]

So basically the Jumping Inhale custom is gahlike.

That seems to be the consensus. It gives you the momentum you need to inhale opponents more safely, as the original move's startup and ending lag left you in a pretty bad spot if you didn't actually manage to suck them in. Copying is safer because it's much more difficult for your opponent to capitalize on your copy lag. Additionally, it's a pretty awesome way to Kirbycide.

 

[Unknownkid]

Don't forget that Horizontal momentum so that you can save your jumps!

 

[Salad Bowl]

King DeDeDes inhale has more range and does more damage so everytime I go against one. I try to swallow them asap

 

[Unknownkid]

Did you know that Kirby's Inhale and DDD Hat Kirby's Inhale will 80% beat DDD's Inhale?

If we both Inhale at the same time, Kirby's small statue will make him swallow DDD before the King does. I test this against a good DDD player in For Glory. We were both shock at first. So we stopped fighting and start messing with Inhale. I had it recorded but that was in patch 1.03.

 

[|RK|]

I love messing around on For Glory. Haven't had many good matches on the 3DS version as of late (and my Kirby is still awful), but it's fun to mess around. I out-spammed a Duck Hunt player, killing him with his can. He suicided next stock. Killed an Ike with Eruption, and a Ness with PK Flash (I don't think that he knew he could absorb it...). Copy Abilities are fun.

 

[fromundaman]

I love messing around on For Glory. Haven't had many good matches on the 3DS version as of late (and my Kirby is still awful), but it's fun to mess around. I out-spammed a Duck Hunt player, killing him with his can. He suicided next stock. Killed an Ike with Eruption, and a Ness with PK Flash (I don't think that he knew he could absorb it...). Copy Abilities are fun.

I'm currently stuck on the 3DS version as well; hit me up and we can play at some point.



____

On topic... more copy abilities I find awesome:

-Mario, Dr. Mario, Pikachu, Link, Sheik:
This concept actually applies to pretty much all downward sloping projectiles and is one I abused heavily in brawl against Pikachu, but do a full hop then repeatedly DJ fireball. As the recovery of the projectile will be over by the time you reach the end of your double jump, this allows you to pelt a concentrated area with projectiles while maintaining your mobility, staying out of retaliation range and not suffer any sort of punishable lag. This is a great way to pressure shield, gimp, frustrate your opponent, force approaches, etc.
If you get their power, abuse this.

Special note: This works very well against Link in this game thanks to how much his arrows have improved. The downwards angle they take after a short time allows you to beat him at the range he wants to play at, and if he starts moving towards you, you can just hold the charge to safely land and pressure him with a charged arrow. The barrage of arrows also MURDERS his recovery.


-Greninja: This has very limited uses. So far the only one I've found of note is a similar use to the above, but at the ledge you can do DJ uncharged shurikens to try and clear the area for a safe landing. I don't know how useful this really is since in theory I assume he could UpB you away and put you in a worse situation (No Greninja has ever done that to me so it's just theory fighting at this point).

-Metaknight: This is actually a really good punish and combo ender. You can combo into it and if you mash out all of the hits it does some pretty ridiculous damage. I forget the exact damage, but it's fairly high. Just don't get blocked when using it because it is hella punishable on block and whiff.

 

[The 0ne]

Just played an FFA with my non-competitive friends for fun, and HOLY ****. When you spit somebody out, it is HELLA strong if the star connects. The teams possibilities!! And with Shulk's Smash!? Or with DeDeDe's!? Kreygasm

 

[Salad Bowl]

I like the wii fit and peach abilities.

Wii fit gives her a strong projectile and a tool that makes the opponent approach. It can kill at 140% even tho ur opponent should be killed arround 100%

Peach gives her a counter that can kill. I've gotten kills with it at 90%.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I like the wii fit and peach abilities.

Wii fit gives her a strong projectile and a tool that makes the opponent approach. It can kill at 140% even tho ur opponent should be killed arround 100%

Peach gives her a counter that can kill. I've gotten kills with it at 90%.

Not sure if you knew this already, but Kirby is actually a guy. Wii Fit's and Peach's abilities are great, although I like them for other reasons. Wii Fit's Sun Salutation is nice for combos, edgeguarding, killing (as you stated), and pressuring. Peach's counter is eh. It's good, yes, but it doesn't really hit that hard unless you counter an incredibly strong move.