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Kirby General Discussion
- Thread starter Xiivi
- Start date
I thought you guys would appreciate this as Kirby players.
spread the Kirby love.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Z...ment_id=z13ifbx5snisxpkqn04cghwz3wq2wbiwbmc0k
spread the Kirby love.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Z...ment_id=z13ifbx5snisxpkqn04cghwz3wq2wbiwbmc0k
FrenkM0J0
Smash Apprentice
Wow ministry you're a beast
Triple R
Smash Lord
Happy New Year Kirby's!
FrenkM0J0
Smash Apprentice
Happy new year everybody! New year's resolution: let's win a national!
You know what they say: Aim high, and you won't shoot your foot off.
You know what they say: Aim high, and you won't shoot your foot off.
FrenkM0J0
Smash Apprentice
Whatsup Kirby's! I want to tell everybody that yesterday at Avalon 12 (a dutch national) I won amateur singles with kirby! This was my second tournament and I'm really happy to win with kirby!
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Sleepy Driz
Smash Cadet
My friend challenged me to a Kirby ditto money match. I don't know anything about this match up -- any advice/things I should know?
FrenkM0J0
Smash Apprentice
I would advise watching some puff ditto's, I think you need to play the kirby ditto in a similar way: spacing is key! I'd say see what kind of player he is: grounded? Use a lot of fairs. Aerial? Use a lot of bair (this is a rule of thumb I use which works okay, because I think bair and fair counter these playstyles hard). Hope this helps!
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KlWl
El Kiwi ᴶᴰ
Honestly, Kirby is so much better than people think he is.
Of course he is, we just need to get our stuff together like the ganon board and start figuring out how to take down our top threats. Those guys are over there everyday labbing different stuff and trying to find out how to progress. Since Kirby hit rock bottom this year... why not band together and try to find out his potential?
I've been maining Ganon in my area for about a year, I started having Kirby and Shiek as my secondaries and the things I've learned from Shiek have helped me progress with kirby a lot. I've taken sets off of the second and third best players in the region.
I've been maining Ganon in my area for about a year, I started having Kirby and Shiek as my secondaries and the things I've learned from Shiek have helped me progress with kirby a lot. I've taken sets off of the second and third best players in the region.
critique my Kirby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzwjnSButFc vs. Ganondorf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzwjnSButFc vs. Ganondorf
Game 1:
Well, I noticed that you didn't use Utilt much until ganon was on his last stock. Crossing up someone's shield is a great thing to do and you did it a couple of time with Fair but there was no Utilt or turn around grab followed up. Especially when playing a slow character it is good to capitalize on those things. Medium percentage Utilt after crossing up a shield usually leads to a Bair, unless they stay in shield and take a couple of them before escaping.
It's also fairly safe on Ganon to cross up his shield with Dair if he isn't going to oppose you with Uairs when you are coming down from above. Coming down with Stone is okay until he figures out the matchup and just waits to grab or punish you with Fair when you come out of your I frames. Overall you did well, got a few Uairs and a few Usmashes, the hammer reads were being pushed but I didn't see any connect. Good job! You kept fighting when I would have tried to suicide a stock at High %, that speaks loads to what you're trying to do with Kirby.
On the tech chasing that you did out of D-throw. Ganon's tech is just like Falcon's out of D-throw, the distance is easy to learn and the speed is slow enough for kirby to follow perfectly and regrab. This can force him to try other options like no tech or tech in place that can be punished with Utilt, regrab, turn around Utilt or turn around regrab depending on his DI if he doesn't want to tech. If he get up attacks it's always a free regrab for Kirby.
I did see one time when you used Fsmash as he was recovering and it seemed to work... I question that Ganon's DI. Always use Ftilt, Dtilt or Dsmash because they are better than Fsmash. All he had to do was DI and be aggressive at while returning to eat through a Fsmash with one of his disjoints. Ftilt and Dtilt allow you more mobility, they are faster, and they send people at good angles. Dsmash sends people up but it can help to cover other options.
There is always the run off, hammer grab too or Bair. Bair is the optimal option for ledge hogging or the situational Dair which people love to die to. Looks like you have a good grasp of Kirby's tools. Nice job in your spacing and usage of Uair when he was on platforms, it was gutsy and it worked.
Game 2:
Good job contesting him in the air and getting up close to him, you got up so close that he seemed confused about what airial options he had and kept flubbing when you guys met in the air. Something I noticed from game one as well, I disagree with using your dash attack after a grab and going off stage. All ganon has to do is be aggressive and he take a stock from you while you are down there. Optimal would probably have been to run up and regrab or JC grab, possibly Ftilt him while he's in shield and try to get him to commit to a bad choice.
Max range Ftilt is annoying to deal with because of how much it can actually push people for how quick of a move it is. I saw that you went for Dair early in this set and I would recommend flow charting it. Bair anything Ganon does unless he is below the ledge. His DI was on point here and Dair didn't do much, Bair would have given him headaches at least. You had a nice predict on Usmash to take his first stock, good coverage of options there.
I don't like the Fsmashes after your Dthrow, I do them sometimes too out of a bad habit but you can safely follow and regrab ganon. Might as well annoy him if he's not going to try harder to get away. In this set you had better overall useage of Utilt and Bair I think. You had some good jab reset mechanics going on too which is important to tack on percentage. Nice finisher for the set with Fsmash... not what I would have done but hey, he kept being obvious in recovering so why not?
You did great overall, I think if you work on some micro choices that you can fourstock this guy consistently. It'll help you to both improve.
wow thanks that helps a lot ill make sure to utilize up tilt side tilt down tilt and get rid of forward smash ill also focus more on bair and use dair as a cross up thanks
Comet7
Smash Lord
if you can do it safely, use aerials when jumping to recover. kirby slows down a bit when he double jumps (like puff) and using an aerial as he jumps lets him get back his terminal air speed faster.
Being comfortable offstage seems to be key to any sort of success with kirby. Is it better to stay on stay and try to cover options with traditional edgeguarind tactics or would the optimal response to 'pushing' someone off the edge to be chasing them off stage immediately with our five jumps for a Bair, Uair or Dair... heck, style with swallowcyde? Seeing a Kirby style is the most hilarious thing in the world.
since KK retired he decided to go to a local with me and enter as kirby,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPlOHX4lJHo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcabQKY3G0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0StwPd4V5c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHwXBBiTPHk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPlOHX4lJHo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcabQKY3G0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0StwPd4V5c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHwXBBiTPHk
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Plunder
Smash Ace
Okay so what in the world did Armada do here at 1:10 to grab ledge?
At first I though it was a dingo drop (shield pivot from teeter which I thought was only possible on FoD) but after slowing it down it looks like a WD > PC drop. Then I looked at it again and it looks like a regular PC drop after WD lag, thought Kirby's PC drop was really hard.
If it is WD > PC drop.... Can this be done consistently on any stage? I seem to have trouble doing this with Kirby doing this since his traction is so high.
At first I though it was a dingo drop (shield pivot from teeter which I thought was only possible on FoD) but after slowing it down it looks like a WD > PC drop. Then I looked at it again and it looks like a regular PC drop after WD lag, thought Kirby's PC drop was really hard.
If it is WD > PC drop.... Can this be done consistently on any stage? I seem to have trouble doing this with Kirby doing this since his traction is so high.
C_Mill24
Smash Journeyman
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- C-Mill24
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If you're consistent with PC dropping, in theory it can be done. I'm kind of in the same boat as you, however anytime I've done a PC drop was by complete accident.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Every time I play Kirby, I realize how many options he has in neutral that are unexplored. Due to his tilts being so good and his shield/shield grab being above average, you have a lot of grounded options to work with in additional to a few aerials to choose from.
FrenkM0J0
Smash Apprentice
I have the same thing. I think that ftilt in neutral is a pretty good spacing tool, about dtilt I'm not so sure though. I think it has too little knockback and hitstun and too much lag to really be useful in neutral.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
D-tilt's hitbox comes out one frame faster than f-tilt, and it only has 1 more frame of recovery (29 total). It's not really inferior to f-tilt in any way, except that it doesn't hit as high. But on the other hand, when Kirby in the d-tilt animation, he squishes himself down really low, allowing him to sneak under a lot of hitboxes.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Well Actually D Tilt can't be acted out of until frame 30, It's unfortunate that it's longer than the animation time. If it had a super fast IASA like Mew2 or the Emblem characters it would be tremendous paired with his low profile.
In just playing seriouslies with the locals the speed difference between D tilt and F tilt feels significant even though on paper it might not look it. I think this has to do with the F tilt hitting a frame later and ending sooner, leaving less perceptible down time.
D-tilt hits farther, but Ftilt can be angled up to anti-air. I like using it pre-emptively and with WD and tricky movement like a worse Samus. It's quasi spammable since it's not reactable and it is one of the most powerful Ftilts in the game, the down angled F tilt barely loses power which is an anomaly among the cast. For it's start speed, good range, and minimal lag it's probably one of the best grounded spacing moves in the game. Only problem is that it doesn't combo, it's just a semi safe poke/ender when spaced properly.
In just playing seriouslies with the locals the speed difference between D tilt and F tilt feels significant even though on paper it might not look it. I think this has to do with the F tilt hitting a frame later and ending sooner, leaving less perceptible down time.
D-tilt hits farther, but Ftilt can be angled up to anti-air. I like using it pre-emptively and with WD and tricky movement like a worse Samus. It's quasi spammable since it's not reactable and it is one of the most powerful Ftilts in the game, the down angled F tilt barely loses power which is an anomaly among the cast. For it's start speed, good range, and minimal lag it's probably one of the best grounded spacing moves in the game. Only problem is that it doesn't combo, it's just a semi safe poke/ender when spaced properly.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I think if you're going for an anti-air, you're better off choosing reverse up-tilt, as it leads to a lot more usually. Acting on frame 30 is still super good. In general, moves that are between 20-30 frames total animation are solid.
Plunder
Smash Ace
But really....
Does Up tilt lead to anything on higher percents even on FFers? No.....
Does it lead to anything on mid and floaties at any percent besides 0? No.....
At kill percents it will just pop them high above you which doesn't really do anything....
What I was discussing is using F-tilt as spacing like Samuses use it. Corner pressure, keeping neutral, pressuring them off stage, it can kill early as well (Kirby's Ftilt power-to-speed is the best of the f-tilts). Only problem is he can't quite space on shield like Samus, but unless you spam it like 4 times in a row they can't react before you can act again.
IMO Uptilt isn't all that great as an anti air either, in actual use it is great for when they are above you (spam it to keep them at bay or on plat) but to stop SH FH approaches it's nowhere as useful as Falco or Foxes because the hitbox isn't as great and the spacies U-tilt lasts twice as long. Not only that but there are situations where it's just easier to Ftilt instead of inputing a reverse U-tilt (and maybe messing up), Ftilt hits farther as well. The hitbox can beat out a lot even though it doesn't look like it (including both spacies Up-Bs).
I would agree that 20-30 is sort of safe even up to 32....I just stated the right frame SAF because you were saying it was 29. I do feel the 2 frames difference personally. I used to think it was even more because it feels sluggish compared to the F tilt (and Kirby's little leg stays out there even when the D tilt hit-box stops).
Does Up tilt lead to anything on higher percents even on FFers? No.....
Does it lead to anything on mid and floaties at any percent besides 0? No.....
At kill percents it will just pop them high above you which doesn't really do anything....
What I was discussing is using F-tilt as spacing like Samuses use it. Corner pressure, keeping neutral, pressuring them off stage, it can kill early as well (Kirby's Ftilt power-to-speed is the best of the f-tilts). Only problem is he can't quite space on shield like Samus, but unless you spam it like 4 times in a row they can't react before you can act again.
IMO Uptilt isn't all that great as an anti air either, in actual use it is great for when they are above you (spam it to keep them at bay or on plat) but to stop SH FH approaches it's nowhere as useful as Falco or Foxes because the hitbox isn't as great and the spacies U-tilt lasts twice as long. Not only that but there are situations where it's just easier to Ftilt instead of inputing a reverse U-tilt (and maybe messing up), Ftilt hits farther as well. The hitbox can beat out a lot even though it doesn't look like it (including both spacies Up-Bs).
I would agree that 20-30 is sort of safe even up to 32....I just stated the right frame SAF because you were saying it was 29. I do feel the 2 frames difference personally. I used to think it was even more because it feels sluggish compared to the F tilt (and Kirby's little leg stays out there even when the D tilt hit-box stops).
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I agree that f-tilt is useful for knockback and range. But time and time again I find myself needing ways to get more damage from winning neutral. It's one of Kirby's biggest problems, I believe.
Utilt has the potential to chain together 3-4 in a row (on fast fallers) followed by a strong aerial and a knockdown situation on a platform. On floaties I usually don't even bother using utilt; instead, I just opt for bairs and grabs. Trying to punish floaties hard is a joke, unless you happen to get some insane up-b into jab reset going, something I'm trying to pioneer.
Utilt has the potential to chain together 3-4 in a row (on fast fallers) followed by a strong aerial and a knockdown situation on a platform. On floaties I usually don't even bother using utilt; instead, I just opt for bairs and grabs. Trying to punish floaties hard is a joke, unless you happen to get some insane up-b into jab reset going, something I'm trying to pioneer.
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Plunder
Smash Ace
No yea don't get me wrong on FFers I totally agree that U tilt should be used way more than F tilt while they are combo-able (smart players will DI and SDI after the 2nd hit though).
Against Peach and Jiggly Puff I've actually become fond of the MU. It's very much a poke fest and spacing/zoning 1-2 hits here and there, but I've come to enjoy and actually sometimes win the MU against seasoned locals. I've noticed Triple R seems to almost go even with better Puffs users and he always beats equal or lesser Puffs, and those matches are actually fun to watch which surprises me since they are long. Just gotta make sure you punish those rests with a perfectly spaced hammer *KA-POW*
Even sheik too I've been enjoying, at least noob sheiks that don't know that Kirby can sort of nullify the usual autopilot braindead Sheik stuff.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I was of the opinion that up-smash was your best KO tool vs a sleeping Puff. Also, up-smash out of shield is an amazing KO tool vs Peach players who think they can just dash attack in neutral when you are grounded.
Plunder
Smash Ace
If you have time to get really close and fully charge it then yea the Up smash is more powerful.
But if you don't fully charge or don't get the small inner hitbox then the hammer is more powerful especially if they DI (I mean they have so much time on a charged up smash, they will DI).
I personally just really want to use the hammer at every moment possible. It launches at 60 degrees, the Up smash inner super powerful hitbox launches at 75 degrees. So quite often when I'm near an edge the hammer seems like it actually kills faster if they go for the typical optimal "Fox Upsmash" DI against a hammer. They end up going more vertical or horizontal leading to earlier kills.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Hm, I think a full charged up-smash kills a sleeping Puff at like 40% before the hit, regardless of DI. I'm going to go test this.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Well to me that sentence doesn't quite make sense since the percentage is stage dependent as is the DI.....but c'mon now we all know DI does matter, it matters with an kill move that doesn't hit at a 45 degree angle (or other favorable angle) already.
On FD fully charged Up smash (inner hitbox only) does kill at about 42%, with optimal DI it kills at 48-49%, and strong hammer DIed optimally about 55%. But if they DI like they are going to get UP smashed they can actually die off FDs side at like 38-40% from strong hammer, DI in other directions have the same effect off the top (dying at 46% from hammer). Uncharged inner Up Smash kills at about 68% no DI, and outer Up Smash fully charged no DI kills at about 82%
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
They would have to have pretty terrible DI to die that early from a hammer. Neutral DI they wouldn't die until 55-56% on FD. Charged up-smash does KO around 46-49% as you said.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Eh not really that bad of DI, and go ahead and test optimal DI on hammer. See what number you get...
The hammer has a tremendous base KB and it's already at a full diagonal, so any DI at all that isn't making it go barely more vertical can result in very early horizontal kills. On Yoshi's hammer with even a bit of horizontal DI will kill at like 25% from center stage, MUCH much sooner than any accidental bad DI on Up Smash could achieve. Also worth noting is the smaller the stage the difference exponentially shrinks between Hammer (No DI) and Fully Charged Up Smash (No DI), on Yoshi's it's 40% vs 43%. This is because of how gravity works in the game, even with Puff's super floaty lightweight characteristics.
Basically Hammer with optimal DI and neutral DI is pretty much the same because of it's launch angle combined with gravity. Try and optimally DI a strong hammer, better hope you get that very slight angle exactly right or you'll actually be dying sooner.
I tested this stuff ages ago when I was trying to see if Hammer was worth it in certain situations..
The hammer has a tremendous base KB and it's already at a full diagonal, so any DI at all that isn't making it go barely more vertical can result in very early horizontal kills. On Yoshi's hammer with even a bit of horizontal DI will kill at like 25% from center stage, MUCH much sooner than any accidental bad DI on Up Smash could achieve. Also worth noting is the smaller the stage the difference exponentially shrinks between Hammer (No DI) and Fully Charged Up Smash (No DI), on Yoshi's it's 40% vs 43%. This is because of how gravity works in the game, even with Puff's super floaty lightweight characteristics.
Basically Hammer with optimal DI and neutral DI is pretty much the same because of it's launch angle combined with gravity. Try and optimally DI a strong hammer, better hope you get that very slight angle exactly right or you'll actually be dying sooner.
I tested this stuff ages ago when I was trying to see if Hammer was worth it in certain situations..
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Bottom line is that grounded hammer is a good KO move. I'm throwing it out in neutral more to see where it works. It's definitely worth the risk in some situations.
Audos
Smash Apprentice
I use the hammer the same way I use falcon's raptor boost, as kind of a check yourself for people trying too hard to go in. It's got to be one of the funniest moves to land in neutral, too. Just condition the opponent as hard as you can to overshoot then interrupt with it. It's reactable but totally worth trying to land now and then.
BTW is there a social Kirby thread anywhere?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I think this is the closest thing we have to a social thread. None of the Kirby threads are active enough these days unfortunately. Everyone is blinded by the dark side of the force that is 20XX.
Audos
Smash Apprentice
Dude that sucks. You'd think of any community on here the kirby community would be the most likely for a social thread. At least I would anyway. Smashboards in general needs a boost. I bet more people would go on it if they knew PP was still pretty active lol.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah I have nobody to talk about random Kirby meta with, except Ministry.
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Audos
Smash Apprentice
I'll definitely theorycraft from a MU standpoint. I'm interested in the way all characters are approaching each other so I'll hit the thread up if I think of anything. Overall it's just hard to play kirby. Even with reads you get almost nothing sometimes, so I guess the best way to approach kirby would be finding ways to put enemies in places you can capitalize the most off of, imo.