choknater
Smash Obsessed
First thing's first: I believe that tiers exist, but not to the extent that low-tier characters should be tossed aside in tournaments altogether. Some things go undiscovered. No one knew highly technical Yoshi stuff until Fumi, ChuDat singlehandedly invented the Ice Climbers, who never existed before him. And what I've observed after many, many tournaments: Kirby simply isn't played enough to bring out further potential, which I know is there.
Please don't give me any "Kirby sucks no matter how much you try, sorry." Actually, I know, he does kinda suck, but I'm just exploring the possibilities.
Let's take a closer look at Kirby's playability in a tournament situation. Obviously, almost nobody chooses Kirby as a main. However, he has been chosen, on occasion, as a legitimate counter-pick (Ganondorf, anyone?). Most of this is probably already known, but I'm attempting to tie lots of known-facts together to create a good mindset for playing Kirby. Let's analyze his strengths:
#1: EASY KILLS
He's popular for cheap and easy kills, including suicide kills. Here are some uptions for instant death (most are known, maybe some are not.)
- back throw
- forward throw at higher %'s
- neutral B -> walk off stage
Okay, this may be pretty situational as not everyone will fall for it. But don't lose hope for neutral B just yet: when people attempt to mash out of it (which most do on their first time) they will die, as long as you have walked off the stage. The only characters that can possibly survive this are other Kirbies, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Fox, and Game & Watch, and even then, it's a long shot. They still die most of the time.
When they are released, they are sent downward and Kirby is sent upward a bit, allowing Kirby's survival. A tip: don't release them with Z or B because you will continue going down. They MUST mash out of it for you to survive.
What if they don't mash out? You can stand on the edge and wait. Time it right, and they will STILL die if you jump off at the right time. If you wait, and they BEGIN to mash, listen closely to their controller and jump off, and they're usually dead.
- Perfect ledge neutral B
If you roll dodge to the ledge and suck someone in, the momentum from sucking them pushes Kirby off for a suicide kill. If they mash out of it, you live and they die. Pretty easy. This is a little more unexpected than just sucking and walking off.
- dashing short hop neutral B
Even faster, more unexpected, and easy suicide kill. Run toward the edge, hop and B and they will die with you. Can also be done in reverse.
Once again, not everyone falls for it. It's a matter of manipulating and predicting where your opponent will move, much like Falco's fsmash or Link's upB: fatal but risky.
Also, many moves outrange the neutral B. Be weary of when to set it up, and know which characters have less range than others (perhaps Luigi, Ganon, Roy, Pikachu, etc. I could be wrong on these.) Also a warning: Ledge hop neutral B is another popular variation, but it's highly risky because if you miss, you'll find yourself way below the stage ready to be edgeguarded. Almost certain suicide on Yoshi-story.
Also remember: Logically, you wouldn't want to do this sort of thing when you're behind in stock. Suicides are suicides.
- dair spike
The only multi-hit besides Yoshi's dair. Kirby's is much better. If you FF it, the multi-hits will spike anyone to death even if they meteor cancel. Even Samus. Also, Kirby has multiple jumps, so he can get out there pretty far to spike. Not many characters have the ability to jump far off the stage for edgeguards besides Jiggly, Falcon, Mewtwo, or Peach. Kirby can... but to a limit. Kirby's horizontal air movement is SLOW, and his upB is extremely punishable. Still, his dair is one of the most potent meteors.
#2: THE CROUCH
Shortest crouch in the game, yes, it's a well-known fact. It makes him the infamous Ganondorf counter-pick, because a crouching Kirby dodges ALMOST ALL of his ground moves, and also the grabs of most characters. How can this be used to be more than just a Ganon counter?
Here's some facts:
- Since the crouch can avoid grabs without a WD, dodge, or jump, this sets up EASY, EASY down tilts. What's so good about his dtilt, you ask?
Spacing. I remember Isai spacing the heck out of Ken's sheik in that really really old Kirby vs Sheik video. And to this day, WD dtilt still works really well as a ground spacer. Combined with ftilts and bairs, Kirby has potential WoP-like defensive abilities. Dodges with lots of invincibility also help out his defensive game.
Crouching dtilts and dsmashes are also great for edge-guards. CC's at low %'s help.
**THEREFORE!** We have two main points which can be heavily exploited in tournament matches: cheap, easy kills + dodging/WoP-like defense. I think we're starting to see a new Kirby style in the works!
Kirby is a defensive, power-packed character. Therefore, he can camp! If anyone has ever seen a Q player from 3rd strike (kuroda is a favorite) then you might find that turtling and camping can be really helpful to draw out openings in your opponent's flawed rushdown. By playing this way, you can get in those dtilt/ftilt/AAA pokes, or pull off those cheap suicide kills.
Ok, now for weaknesses.
THINGS THAT **** KIRBY:
1. Shine Spike ---- ABSOLUTE ****!
2. Vertical KO's in general
3. Anything that taps Kirby's upB recovery takes away all his jumps.
4. Horizontal movement is nothing compared to Jigglypuff's. Therefore, moves with trajectory like Sheik's slap and Falcon's knee provide you some good ******.
HOW TO NOT GET ***** WHEN RECOVERING?
1. If you get spiked, or if you're in that general area below the stage, don't hug the side of the stage. Kirby's sword reaches a couple feet in front so you can recovery pretty safely.
2. If you are hit horizontally or upward, don't waste your jumps. It's much better to use the jumps when you're below the stage because of slow horizontal movement.
MOVES THAT SUCK:
1. down B - punishable in every way
MOVES THAT STINK, BUT NOT SUCK:
2. usmash - low range, low priority = punishable
3. dash attack - possibly suicidal, punishable when missed
Alright, so I'm out of ideas, but I hope some of you have been a little bit enlightened on some Kirby facts. But now I ask you, Smashboardians, to help me out in devising more general Kirby strategies. I know, this seems very broad, but we're focusing on tournament play. You can point out tendencies of tournament players:
- The best players are fast, safe, and aggressive. The only players talented enough to play defensive are probably Isai and HugS. With Kirby, being aggressive is difficult because of unsafe approach moves, or lack of approach moves thereof.
- Some say not to think about mindgames or what moves to use, but it just doesn't work that way with Kirby. Defensive players and low tier players have to make the RIGHT decisions all the time. Kirby is sort of a combination of the two.
This is NOT a video discussion because we're attempting to discover NEW things. Kirby isn't played out just yet, so don't fail me now!
So, let the brainstorming begin?
Please don't give me any "Kirby sucks no matter how much you try, sorry." Actually, I know, he does kinda suck, but I'm just exploring the possibilities.
Let's take a closer look at Kirby's playability in a tournament situation. Obviously, almost nobody chooses Kirby as a main. However, he has been chosen, on occasion, as a legitimate counter-pick (Ganondorf, anyone?). Most of this is probably already known, but I'm attempting to tie lots of known-facts together to create a good mindset for playing Kirby. Let's analyze his strengths:
#1: EASY KILLS
He's popular for cheap and easy kills, including suicide kills. Here are some uptions for instant death (most are known, maybe some are not.)
- back throw
- forward throw at higher %'s
- neutral B -> walk off stage
Okay, this may be pretty situational as not everyone will fall for it. But don't lose hope for neutral B just yet: when people attempt to mash out of it (which most do on their first time) they will die, as long as you have walked off the stage. The only characters that can possibly survive this are other Kirbies, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Fox, and Game & Watch, and even then, it's a long shot. They still die most of the time.
When they are released, they are sent downward and Kirby is sent upward a bit, allowing Kirby's survival. A tip: don't release them with Z or B because you will continue going down. They MUST mash out of it for you to survive.
What if they don't mash out? You can stand on the edge and wait. Time it right, and they will STILL die if you jump off at the right time. If you wait, and they BEGIN to mash, listen closely to their controller and jump off, and they're usually dead.
- Perfect ledge neutral B
If you roll dodge to the ledge and suck someone in, the momentum from sucking them pushes Kirby off for a suicide kill. If they mash out of it, you live and they die. Pretty easy. This is a little more unexpected than just sucking and walking off.
- dashing short hop neutral B
Even faster, more unexpected, and easy suicide kill. Run toward the edge, hop and B and they will die with you. Can also be done in reverse.
Once again, not everyone falls for it. It's a matter of manipulating and predicting where your opponent will move, much like Falco's fsmash or Link's upB: fatal but risky.
Also, many moves outrange the neutral B. Be weary of when to set it up, and know which characters have less range than others (perhaps Luigi, Ganon, Roy, Pikachu, etc. I could be wrong on these.) Also a warning: Ledge hop neutral B is another popular variation, but it's highly risky because if you miss, you'll find yourself way below the stage ready to be edgeguarded. Almost certain suicide on Yoshi-story.
Also remember: Logically, you wouldn't want to do this sort of thing when you're behind in stock. Suicides are suicides.
- dair spike
The only multi-hit besides Yoshi's dair. Kirby's is much better. If you FF it, the multi-hits will spike anyone to death even if they meteor cancel. Even Samus. Also, Kirby has multiple jumps, so he can get out there pretty far to spike. Not many characters have the ability to jump far off the stage for edgeguards besides Jiggly, Falcon, Mewtwo, or Peach. Kirby can... but to a limit. Kirby's horizontal air movement is SLOW, and his upB is extremely punishable. Still, his dair is one of the most potent meteors.
#2: THE CROUCH
Shortest crouch in the game, yes, it's a well-known fact. It makes him the infamous Ganondorf counter-pick, because a crouching Kirby dodges ALMOST ALL of his ground moves, and also the grabs of most characters. How can this be used to be more than just a Ganon counter?
Here's some facts:
- Since the crouch can avoid grabs without a WD, dodge, or jump, this sets up EASY, EASY down tilts. What's so good about his dtilt, you ask?
Spacing. I remember Isai spacing the heck out of Ken's sheik in that really really old Kirby vs Sheik video. And to this day, WD dtilt still works really well as a ground spacer. Combined with ftilts and bairs, Kirby has potential WoP-like defensive abilities. Dodges with lots of invincibility also help out his defensive game.
Crouching dtilts and dsmashes are also great for edge-guards. CC's at low %'s help.
**THEREFORE!** We have two main points which can be heavily exploited in tournament matches: cheap, easy kills + dodging/WoP-like defense. I think we're starting to see a new Kirby style in the works!
Kirby is a defensive, power-packed character. Therefore, he can camp! If anyone has ever seen a Q player from 3rd strike (kuroda is a favorite) then you might find that turtling and camping can be really helpful to draw out openings in your opponent's flawed rushdown. By playing this way, you can get in those dtilt/ftilt/AAA pokes, or pull off those cheap suicide kills.
Ok, now for weaknesses.
THINGS THAT **** KIRBY:
1. Shine Spike ---- ABSOLUTE ****!
2. Vertical KO's in general
3. Anything that taps Kirby's upB recovery takes away all his jumps.
4. Horizontal movement is nothing compared to Jigglypuff's. Therefore, moves with trajectory like Sheik's slap and Falcon's knee provide you some good ******.
HOW TO NOT GET ***** WHEN RECOVERING?
1. If you get spiked, or if you're in that general area below the stage, don't hug the side of the stage. Kirby's sword reaches a couple feet in front so you can recovery pretty safely.
2. If you are hit horizontally or upward, don't waste your jumps. It's much better to use the jumps when you're below the stage because of slow horizontal movement.
MOVES THAT SUCK:
1. down B - punishable in every way
MOVES THAT STINK, BUT NOT SUCK:
2. usmash - low range, low priority = punishable
3. dash attack - possibly suicidal, punishable when missed
Alright, so I'm out of ideas, but I hope some of you have been a little bit enlightened on some Kirby facts. But now I ask you, Smashboardians, to help me out in devising more general Kirby strategies. I know, this seems very broad, but we're focusing on tournament play. You can point out tendencies of tournament players:
- The best players are fast, safe, and aggressive. The only players talented enough to play defensive are probably Isai and HugS. With Kirby, being aggressive is difficult because of unsafe approach moves, or lack of approach moves thereof.
- Some say not to think about mindgames or what moves to use, but it just doesn't work that way with Kirby. Defensive players and low tier players have to make the RIGHT decisions all the time. Kirby is sort of a combination of the two.
This is NOT a video discussion because we're attempting to discover NEW things. Kirby isn't played out just yet, so don't fail me now!
So, let the brainstorming begin?