Kirby: a Brainstorm

[choknater]

First thing's first: I believe that tiers exist, but not to the extent that low-tier characters should be tossed aside in tournaments altogether. Some things go undiscovered. No one knew highly technical Yoshi stuff until Fumi, ChuDat singlehandedly invented the Ice Climbers, who never existed before him. And what I've observed after many, many tournaments: Kirby simply isn't played enough to bring out further potential, which I know is there.

Please don't give me any "Kirby sucks no matter how much you try, sorry." Actually, I know, he does kinda suck, but I'm just exploring the possibilities.

Let's take a closer look at Kirby's playability in a tournament situation. Obviously, almost nobody chooses Kirby as a main. However, he has been chosen, on occasion, as a legitimate counter-pick (Ganondorf, anyone?). Most of this is probably already known, but I'm attempting to tie lots of known-facts together to create a good mindset for playing Kirby. Let's analyze his strengths:

#1: EASY KILLS

He's popular for cheap and easy kills, including suicide kills. Here are some uptions for instant death (most are known, maybe some are not.)
- back throw
- forward throw at higher %'s
- neutral B -> walk off stage
Okay, this may be pretty situational as not everyone will fall for it. But don't lose hope for neutral B just yet: when people attempt to mash out of it (which most do on their first time) they will die, as long as you have walked off the stage. The only characters that can possibly survive this are other Kirbies, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Fox, and Game & Watch, and even then, it's a long shot. They still die most of the time.

When they are released, they are sent downward and Kirby is sent upward a bit, allowing Kirby's survival. A tip: don't release them with Z or B because you will continue going down. They MUST mash out of it for you to survive.

What if they don't mash out? You can stand on the edge and wait. Time it right, and they will STILL die if you jump off at the right time. If you wait, and they BEGIN to mash, listen closely to their controller and jump off, and they're usually dead.

- Perfect ledge neutral B
If you roll dodge to the ledge and suck someone in, the momentum from sucking them pushes Kirby off for a suicide kill. If they mash out of it, you live and they die. Pretty easy. This is a little more unexpected than just sucking and walking off.
- dashing short hop neutral B
Even faster, more unexpected, and easy suicide kill. Run toward the edge, hop and B and they will die with you. Can also be done in reverse.

Once again, not everyone falls for it. It's a matter of manipulating and predicting where your opponent will move, much like Falco's fsmash or Link's upB: fatal but risky.

Also, many moves outrange the neutral B. Be weary of when to set it up, and know which characters have less range than others (perhaps Luigi, Ganon, Roy, Pikachu, etc. I could be wrong on these.) Also a warning: Ledge hop neutral B is another popular variation, but it's highly risky because if you miss, you'll find yourself way below the stage ready to be edgeguarded. Almost certain suicide on Yoshi-story.

Also remember: Logically, you wouldn't want to do this sort of thing when you're behind in stock. Suicides are suicides.
- dair spike
The only multi-hit besides Yoshi's dair. Kirby's is much better. If you FF it, the multi-hits will spike anyone to death even if they meteor cancel. Even Samus. Also, Kirby has multiple jumps, so he can get out there pretty far to spike. Not many characters have the ability to jump far off the stage for edgeguards besides Jiggly, Falcon, Mewtwo, or Peach. Kirby can... but to a limit. Kirby's horizontal air movement is SLOW, and his upB is extremely punishable. Still, his dair is one of the most potent meteors.

#2: THE CROUCH

Shortest crouch in the game, yes, it's a well-known fact. It makes him the infamous Ganondorf counter-pick, because a crouching Kirby dodges ALMOST ALL of his ground moves, and also the grabs of most characters. How can this be used to be more than just a Ganon counter?

Here's some facts:
- Since the crouch can avoid grabs without a WD, dodge, or jump, this sets up EASY, EASY down tilts. What's so good about his dtilt, you ask?

Spacing. I remember Isai spacing the heck out of Ken's sheik in that really really old Kirby vs Sheik video. And to this day, WD dtilt still works really well as a ground spacer. Combined with ftilts and bairs, Kirby has potential WoP-like defensive abilities. Dodges with lots of invincibility also help out his defensive game.

Crouching dtilts and dsmashes are also great for edge-guards. CC's at low %'s help.



**THEREFORE!** We have two main points which can be heavily exploited in tournament matches: cheap, easy kills + dodging/WoP-like defense. I think we're starting to see a new Kirby style in the works!

Kirby is a defensive, power-packed character. Therefore, he can camp! If anyone has ever seen a Q player from 3rd strike (kuroda is a favorite) then you might find that turtling and camping can be really helpful to draw out openings in your opponent's flawed rushdown. By playing this way, you can get in those dtilt/ftilt/AAA pokes, or pull off those cheap suicide kills.

Ok, now for weaknesses.

THINGS THAT **** KIRBY:
1. Shine Spike ---- ABSOLUTE ****!
2. Vertical KO's in general
3. Anything that taps Kirby's upB recovery takes away all his jumps.
4. Horizontal movement is nothing compared to Jigglypuff's. Therefore, moves with trajectory like Sheik's slap and Falcon's knee provide you some good ******.

HOW TO NOT GET ***** WHEN RECOVERING?
1. If you get spiked, or if you're in that general area below the stage, don't hug the side of the stage. Kirby's sword reaches a couple feet in front so you can recovery pretty safely.
2. If you are hit horizontally or upward, don't waste your jumps. It's much better to use the jumps when you're below the stage because of slow horizontal movement.

MOVES THAT SUCK:
1. down B - punishable in every way

MOVES THAT STINK, BUT NOT SUCK:
2. usmash - low range, low priority = punishable
3. dash attack - possibly suicidal, punishable when missed




Alright, so I'm out of ideas, but I hope some of you have been a little bit enlightened on some Kirby facts. But now I ask you, Smashboardians, to help me out in devising more general Kirby strategies. I know, this seems very broad, but we're focusing on tournament play. You can point out tendencies of tournament players:

- The best players are fast, safe, and aggressive. The only players talented enough to play defensive are probably Isai and HugS. With Kirby, being aggressive is difficult because of unsafe approach moves, or lack of approach moves thereof.
- Some say not to think about mindgames or what moves to use, but it just doesn't work that way with Kirby. Defensive players and low tier players have to make the RIGHT decisions all the time. Kirby is sort of a combination of the two.

This is NOT a video discussion because we're attempting to discover NEW things. Kirby isn't played out just yet, so don't fail me now!

So, let the brainstorming begin?

 

[Buttcrust]

You can survive the inhale even if they don't breakout on many stages against almost every character. Omnigamer posted the frames you have between when they die on the bottom and you do. You never die first.

F-air is a great move. Just as much range as b-air, can combo out of, 3rd hit has good knockback, 13th hit catches people off guard.

More Kirby Strengths:
Edge guarding
^ combined with swallowcides and decent quickness = great edgegame
Many people don't know how to fight a Kirby well because he is underused
u-tilt
grab range is 5th (?) longest in game
great shield

Personally I think Kirby is one of the better partners to have in a team match as well. His moves just seem to set up for combos well and his defensive nature combined with chaoticism of teams usually means he stay alive for pretty long.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

grab range is 5th (?) longest in game

Seventh, actually, right behind Yoshi. Still ridiculous, though.

Oh, yes, Kirby's up-throw is also a cheap-suicide kill. You need the exact set-up, but it will drop the person; however, they do have a considerable amount of time to jump again (maybe six frames). Of course, even if they do jump again, it doesn't mean that they'll be recovering...

And, as Buttcrust said, the inhale is rarely a suicide in the hands of a skilled Kirby player. It's generally referred to as the swallowcide.

Now, as for new ideas... I think what you were going with spacing is gonna be where I, at least, need to improve. For being a little *******, Kirby's got a lot of range. His D-tilt and F-tilt are great moves with a ton of range.

I just had an idea for something, but I won't say it until I'm relatively sure it will work...

 

[Sushiman]

Could somebody be kind enough to tell me what %s are needed for each character to die by the up-throw? Thanks.

Anyway, I find that down-B works well when trying to kill a Samus' or Link's grapples when they are trying to for the ledge. If used once in a while (maybe once or twice a game), it could catch them by surprise. Same goes for dashing attack. In other words, MINDGAMES.

I went to a small tournament, where I completely got ***** with Marth (since I admittingly suck). I chose Kirby for my last round before I would get eliminated, and all the spectators and my opponent was surprised. "Whoa, Kirby?" I managed to get 2 stocks off of a relatively experienced Fox because of the swallowcide.

Some other ways to play with people's minds are to dodge a Marth everytime he goes for an attack. Just to annoy him. Hopefully, they will get frustrated. (try taunting when they're not dead, too).

I use bair, fair, and dair a lot. I can't seem to get the vulcan punch in, most of the time.

 

[Buttcrust]

Could somebody be kind enough to tell me what %s are needed for each character to die by the up-throw? Thanks.

U-throw works at any percent on everybody. You just have to be really close to the edge. They can't break out of it. If you mean b/f-throw, I'm not sure but I wouldn't try it until at least 65%, 45% if you're feeling lucky.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

Well, you could look at it the other way... the Up-throw can kill vertically, but they need to be at a high percentage, say, 200-ish.

 

[Samochan]

For some more of kirby's good points:

- great roll
- good wavedash
- 4 frame jump
- bair has enough range for some characters not being able to shielgrab kirby out of it (peach, for example)
- crouch after aerials
- fair has an extra hit after the third one upon landing, which can prevent shieldgrabbing and can go under shields
- dair has extra hit upon landing, which can too prevent shieldgrabing and go under shields
- little lag on aerials (possible to bair ->utilt someone at lower% and dair->utilt at any% without them being able to retaliate/fly out of range)
- dair sometimes flips the opponent over when all the hits except the final extra hit have connected, resulting in a free hit after the aerial

I don't want to list all the cons here though. I'm too lazy and there is too much to it anyway >_>

 

[Sushiman]

Well, you could look at it the other way... the Up-throw can kill vertically, but they need to be at a high percentage, say, 200-ish.

That's isn't really a great point for Kirby. Marth can kill Samus (heavy character) at 200% with an upthrow. I guess it's okay to be on par with Marth, though.

- fair has an extra hit after the third one upon landing, which can prevent shieldgrabbing and can go under shields
- dair has extra hit upon landing, which can too prevent shieldgrabing and go under shields

An extra hit?

 

[Samochan]

An extra hit?

Yeah, that little hit that pushes them further, more noticeable when you use dair. Regulary you have only 3 hits with fair, but if you land with it, while using shffle ect., there's an extra hit. Then when you dair someone on ground and land, they get hit by that extra hit on dair as well. Unfortunately, those extra hits also have so little knockback that any character could easily cc that little hit into dsmash even at 150% (though usually doesn't happen with fair, since you can usually connect with the other hits and they fly before you connect with the extra one). Dair is **** easy to cc as well, being a laggy move as it is. ._. One of the best ways for kirby to attack is with dair, second only to bair, but when they learn to cc it every time... *anguished cry* poor poor kirby.

 

[_Riot_]

That's isn't really a great point for Kirby. Marth can kill Samus (heavy character) at 200% with an upthrow. I guess it's okay to be on par with Marth, though.


An extra hit?

Yea means the move has pretty much a second hitbox attached...sort of like G&W's d-air and yoshi's down B i knew about kirby's d-air having one but his f-air that i didnt know.

 

[Sushiman]

Yeah, that little hit that pushes them further, more noticeable when you use dair. Regulary you have only 3 hits with fair, but if you land with it, while using shffle ect., there's an extra hit. Then when you dair someone on ground and land, they get hit by that extra hit on dair as well. Unfortunately, those extra hits also have so little knockback that any character could easily cc that little hit into dsmash even at 150% (though usually doesn't happen with fair, since you can usually connect with the other hits and they fly before you connect with the extra one). Dair is **** easy to cc as well, being a laggy move as it is. ._. One of the best ways for kirby to attack is with dair, second only to bair, but when they learn to cc it every time... *anguished cry* poor poor kirby.

I see. That's very interesting to know. It's kinda hard to get that 4th hit with Fair, though, since the 3rd one has so much knockback.

I usually just use dair for a spike, so its impossible to cc. It'd be quite hard to pull off an attack that has so much lag against an experienced player.

 

[Buttcrust]

Yeah, to clairify, when I said "13th hit" in my first post in here I was referring to that. Just so nobody's confused. And the 200% on the u-throw is against Bowser, not floaty Samus. I think it's actually like 215% though.

If the shield the d-air you can cancel it into a grab usually because of that extra hit. It adds to the shield stun or it actually hits but the little knockback and Kirby's grab range still reach far enough.

 

[choknater]

wow, kirby's grab range is really that long? didn't know that lol.

to sushiman: a solution to people cc'ing that dair would be to not shffl it, right? you can sorta DI during the move and space yourself so you don't get hit with a CC move. also, for cc'ers at 70 or 80%+, dair should be safe because of the extra knockback on the last hit. at least a back roll would suffice if they did cc it right.

can anyone help me out with fox? i can't really figure out any combos besides tech chases and utilts. killing him isn't a big deal, but he kills me much faster than i can kill him. it's a horribly difficult matchup IMO, so could i have some tips?

 

[Sushiman]

Mew2king is a Kirby killer, and I think that Fox is Kirby's worst enemy.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SPtFaDHeiNQ

I read somewhere that Omnigamer said that Mew2king knows all of Kirby's weaknesses and exploits them. I think Omnigamer is the 2nd best Kirby in the USA, and he got 3-stocked by M2K.

Kirby dies by going up because he is a light-weight. Fox has pwnage uair. Bad combo.

EDIT: Some more info: Never dthrow a samus at low %. She has enough time to nair you because she is very floaty. Also, if you utilt after a dthrow for jiggly, she can easily down-b you, and you'll be sent flying.

 

[ChozenOne]

I heard Kirby is a counter/soft counter to Ganon.. true/untrue??

 

[Buttcrust]

True, sort of. Ganon statistically probably has the advantage because he can KO Kirby so easily, but Kirby has a lot going for him in this battle and if the Ganon is unfamiliar with Kirby he could be dealt a rather one-sided loss.

Kirby can combo Ganon well and can edge-gaurd him easily. Crouch kills a ton of Ganon's game. You can usually u-tilt him out of his arials also. But at 30% you're in KO range. M'eh...

 

[Sushiman]

can anyone help me out with fox? i can't really figure out any combos besides tech chases and utilts. killing him isn't a big deal, but he kills me much faster than i can kill him. it's a horribly difficult matchup IMO, so could i have some tips?

Ask Omnigamer. He said that he can beat most Foxes, but mew2king is a different story.

Btw, who is the best Kirby out there? (global and USA)

 

[Samochan]

wow, kirby's grab range is really that long? didn't know that lol.

to sushiman: a solution to people cc'ing that dair would be to not shffl it, right? you can sorta DI during the move and space yourself so you don't get hit with a CC move. also, for cc'ers at 70 or 80%+, dair should be safe because of the extra knockback on the last hit. at least a back roll would suffice if they did cc it right.

Liek, because of that extra hit, the knockback they receive is extremely small and thus they have easy time CC'ing it even at 150%. I was quit suprised when my friend cc'ed a dair into dsmash with samus at 150%, and that was a bit delayed ccc as well. Peach can also suck you in with her dsmsh, since your extra hit's hitbox is still there, even if kirby himself is out of range. >_> Kirby doesn't have any time to get away from these either. And to not shffle dair is like saying don't use a really good attack. Against jiggs though, never tested how far that guy slides from dair, but dair is **** useful against jiggs. Again, at low%, too many characters can cc this extra hit into grab, even, before kirby can do his own.

And kirby does the best against Falcon, really. Falcon has a tough time getting in those knees because of kirby's small frame. Kirby is not easy to combo either and edgeguards falcon easily. Kirby can also double stick tech those knees when grounded. ;o I once accidentally did this while I was downsmashing. I had 100% but barely moved an inch and teched the knee.

One of the funniest things to do to a fox is definitely tech chase with dthrows and continue to dthrow that guy multiple times. :D With jc grab and good prediction skills, you can get in at least 3 grabs, more if you continue to predict his movement. Rolls are tough to get grabs from tough.

 

[Buttcrust]

I've just realized that it's not too hard to combo into a swallowcide.

Near the edge just full jump bair. If it is shielded/dodged, do the double bair.

If it hits use a jump to carry yourself off the edge and turn around. Then quickly inhale.

After you do this once or twice they'll start letting themselves fall further under the stage's lip before DJ/recover move. When they staret doing this do the same as before but d-air instead of inhale. With them waiting to fall you should have enough time to start it up easily.

Sometimes it works even if you don't turn around to inhale. And clearly this won't work often or on every character, but it's certainly a viable tactic when the opportunity arises.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

Nice; this could be an interesting asset...

 

[Samochan]

Just heard about this little trick from Kirbstir you can do with dair. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but I want to share this with everyone since it seems it's not commonly used or known tactic based on posts here and matches I've watched. Ignore this post if you already know this.

So anyways, everyone here knows about dair's extra hit upon landing. Without the extra hit occuring sometimes, the opponent flips over for a second or two, and you're free to grab them or do something else. But how many of you guys knew that while you're in the middle of dairing someone, you can pull back a little bit and prevent the extra hit from happening. I also heard it's not that hard to do, just requires correct spacing, so if a kirby player could do this consistently, that would be a free hit in after every dair you do. Multijumps to dair is very good and this makes is even more sweeter.

1) Unable to cc it (gg samus and peach ;D)
2) Unable to retaliate in any way for a second or two
3) Only floathers can escape at high% or so
4) Flip lasts long enough to get in tilts, maybe even smashes and aerials

So imo, this could make kirby's dair into a powerful assent on his play, maybe even as useful as his bair is. 100% free hits for kirby is rare thing to happen and kirby players should use whatever means they can to win. So I'm gonna test this thing out, can't wait to learn this and use it against coco consistently, since he loves to cc my dairs. :D

Edit: Here's a tiny vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM7gDPr31ek

 

[Winston]

Aw man, with this trick, dair might be almost worthy to mention in the same sentence as his SSB64 dair XD That one was like *combo combo combo*

 

[ChozenOne]

Kirbstir ftw..

 

[kirbstir]

^_^

 

[nitro-blazer]

Wow, this is... amazing. My main complaint about Kirby is his lack of sufficient combo moves, but this could link things together. I use SHFFL D-airs a fair bit already, and with this.

I knew it did the stun, but I couldn't figure out what triggered it, or the timing. Thanks Kirbstir / Samochan.

*Goes off to learn timing.*

 

[kirbstir]

Here's a video of me vs Aho's falco when I first started trying to incorporate it in my game

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2177525350605773309

About 1:46ish...

Haha, really old vid, but I like Eple

 

[Sushiman]

Seems like a good way to get in combos, but is it necessary to L-cancel in order to make this work?

 

[nitro-blazer]

I've run into a slight snag here.

When I do it, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, even though the extra doesn't hit. What happens is, it knocks them up, then spikes them, allowing them to either tech, or roll out of the 'on the ground' animation.

 

[kirbstir]

it's a very picky move and depends on which part of the attack hits last (at least this is what I think...).

It's how kirby can do a dair->falcon punch against Captain Falcon when he's at 332% - hit them with the very start of the move

Yes you do need to L-cancel this move, or you can't take full advantage of the stun

 

[nitro-blazer]

This move has powerful potential if a player can time it correctly. I've used the flip to succesfully U-smash kill Peach at 100% +. Could be used to give Kirby a free edgeguarding chance with a spaced D-smash or F-smash, as well.

I've had the most success with it when I ONLY hit with the first, and only first, hit of the move.

 

[t!MmY]

Aw, I was going to post this with a video demonstrating it.

Oh well, I have other tricks in the video (soon to be made when I have time to capture them).

 

[Samochan]

Gah, I can't get it to work properly. <_>;; I must've been doing it wrong, but I managed to do it once... I need a vid demonstrating when and how to pull back.

 

[t!MmY]

Thus the reason I wanted to put a video of it up. (Ugh, I've been so ridiculously busy lately).

In Training Mode, try a short hop and right when you get to the top execute the d-air. The timing to pull away is something you just have to figure out (text isn't the most efficient way of communicating it).

When I finally get around to putting these tricks online, I will include an alternate way of doing this maneuver. (hint, you've already seen it in one of the Warpstar Warrior vids )

 

[nitro-blazer]

Here's an idea I was thinking about at work. We all know this technique leaves you a lot of time, right? Well, what if someone could do it, short hop, D-air and do it again, and then repeat the process?

 

[Dragon_Hawk]

When I finally get around to putting these tricks online, I will include an alternate way of doing this maneuver. (hint, you've already seen it in one of the Warpstar Warrior vids )

I'm intrigued. Now I want to go through the vids and find this secret alternate way...

Uh, I was ******* around in training mode the other day and ran a few tests against a standing Link. I doubt they have any sort of relevance because the Link couldn't DI but from the way this Dair trick sounds, it doesn't give me the impression that DI really matters since you're using the stun and total lack of knockback to string the combo along. But on the off-chance that I'm incorrect in my assumptions about this being mildly irrelevant and this information actually does help someone, here it is anyways.

Atfer doing the Dair Pull Away (err, that's what I'm going to refer to the last-hit cancel as until someone comes up with an official name for it or tells me its official name) into F-smash on Link in Training, in the Consecutive Hits box it read (this changed periodically) 4-6 hits and that included the F-smash. Now... during testing on Link I managed to pull - consistently - the Dair to F-smash with computer reading it as a sequence of moves but the box didn't start reading it as consecutive hits until about 55% and I didn't do any testing beyond 110% (it stopped reading it as one sequence at 95%) but that's not the point of this. The point is: does anyone else have numbers on this move? Or, more importantly, does anyone have match experience that disproves these numbers because I'm really hoping these numbers are wrong simply because I'd much prefer guaranteed F-smashes at even lower percentages.

Also... I've been toying around with letting multiple hits in singe hit permutations (against my brother's Roy) and I'd like to know which seems to be more practical because, regretfully, I can't say that it's making too much of a difference to me right now (well, the setup is helping tons but the one hit vs multiple hits isn't doing huge differences for me right now). In Samochan's vid the Dair did a bunch of hits (although Peach had her shield up so that might not count) whereas in Kirbstir's vid he only used one hit to do the jab --> grab. Does it make a difference? Nitro, I'm looking at you right now... not accusatorily or anything but seeking elaboration. Did the flip only work on Peach when the first hit flipped her with the U-smash thing? Or were you more consistent with single hit pull away or is it something else entirely?

 

[DoH]

You can rock onto moving stages and get all your jumps back and recover, like on mute city.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

Here's an idea I was thinking about at work. We all know this technique leaves you a lot of time, right? Well, what if someone could do it, short hop, D-air and do it again, and then repeat the process?

I doubt it. Kirby seems too slow. Once you land that d-air, you only have a few moments to do anything against them. Using the D-air again doesn't seem like it would make it in time before they could block it.

 

[Samochan]

I doubt it. Kirby seems too slow. Once you land that d-air, you only have a few moments to do anything against them. Using the D-air again doesn't seem like it would make it in time before they could block it.

I wonder if someone could test this on AR. Kirby lags very minimal amount of time when L-cancelled and his jump also starts on frame 4 and I heard kirbstir saying you can combo the dair last-hit cancel (DLHC or just LHC? for a shortened up version) into another aerial, but other aerials are faster than dair. Plus it would be extremely broken to just repeatedly dair them and rack up damage while they can do nothing, so I don't think it's possible since kirby has no broken moves cause of the nerfing and they did not allow kirby to be any good. >_>

 

[nitro-blazer]

Nitro, I'm looking at you right now... not accusatorily or anything but seeking elaboration. Did the flip only work on Peach when the first hit flipped her with the U-smash thing? Or were you more consistent with single hit pull away or is it something else entirely?

The way I did it was so that it only hit once and I U-smashed her. However, she was crouch cancelling.

I've had more success with multiple hits @ Low damage CCing.

 

[Buttcrust]

It isn't possible. I've tried doing the multiple down airs before. Like a full year ago. It just doesn't work.