Kirby 1.11 Patch Changelog Thread

[TimG57867]

Holy thing, I kind of noticed the matches were harder today! So the Shieldstun change was NEGATIVE for Kirby?! Damn it, I was hoping for D-Air to be much better now... Also, no Up-Throw buff Why do that for your child, Sakurai
But, seriously, emotions aside, is Kirby really that terminated? I'm not a comparing dude, but Jigglypuff, who has WAY lesser range than Kirby (I'm a Jiggs secondary, I know her kind of well) is being considered better after this. Also, he has a D-Tilt that can Shield-Poke pretty well. Shields are more fragile, so he can do that faster, or I'm wrong?

I honestly think it's being blown out of proportion. Yes, we can't just run around and shield as much as before but shielding is still a good option. It's just not as super powerful as it was before. I think we'll get through this. We're definitely not bottom tier now or anything like that.

As for the D-Tilt thing, I was actually curious about that. I'd imagine it's now relatively safe poke given how fast it is in general. I tried a little on CPUs and didn't run into trouble. I think we'll need some time to see just how this shield nerf effects Kirby's gameplay. I personally think that while it'll make getting in harder (to what extent, who knows. I don't think it'll be too severe) once inside, our close quarters game will improve with our speedy tilts making for safer shield pokes along with F-Air when spaced right. D-Air might find new use as well though it's not as likely given its end lag. I personally can't test this well though since I am currently just stuck with a 3DS in college. Will be interesting to see how much the metagame really changes from this.

Also, as frustrating as the lack of buffs are, no other character really got impacted directly by the patch that much. (except Luigi. lol) so a lack of big buffs for us isn't a shocker. I expect that they'll wait to see how this change affects the meta and buff accordingly. In any case, let's stay level here.

 

[Dessa]

You know, I thought people were overreacting until Triple R came in and said that business. There are a lot of Kirbys here in Minnesota. I doubt they are all wrong.

 

[Altair357]

Basically with universal shield stun, you can't act out of shield as quickly. This makes more moves unpunishable / creates more opportunities for the attacker. Essentially playing defensively got nerfed and people think this will encourage offense (easy to see why). But Kirby "supposedly" can't take advantage of this since he has neither speed nor range. That leaves playing defensively, which just got nerfed, so Kirby ends up being "worse overall."

I think this whole shieldstun thing is a bit overblown, though we do have to watch out for quite a few new things. Our rewards are still really good, and our damage output is spot on. Like TimG57867 said, we still have an actual CQC game to go along with our multiple jumps, something not many other characters have. Being stuck in shield for 3 extra frames hopefully won't do much to our game, but we should have the tools to get around it.

I just couldn't understand why people were suddenly saying Kirby was like, the worst character in the game.

This doesn't change much. Some characters like the change because they have new moves safe on shield that are better than the ones they had before. Kirby doesn't suffer horribly from a new move that someone can use on his shield (most of the time - some matchups definitely got worse, though). If you were punishing your opponents out of shield all the time, they just weren't spacing well, and spacing is a pretty important thing to be good at.
And powershielding is still amazing, so dealing with projectiles is almost exactly the same as it was before.

 

[Asdioh]

You know, I thought people were overreacting until Triple R came in and said that business. There are a lot of Kirbys here in Minnesota. I doubt they are all wrong.

Alright, this thread lost me. I can't tell who's joking or not anymore

Anyway, it's way too early to say anything about Kirby's viability as of this patch. I've barely noticed any changes in the casual play I've been doing on wifi. I've seen people say Kirby's Upair isn't as safe on shield anymore? That doesn't make any sense. That makes the opposite of sense. Calm down and try the game out with your newfound knowledge, guys.

Also, I would (once again) be willing to bet money that the next balance patch (whenever they add the smash ballot DLC character, plus probably a surprise character or something) will have a lot of balance changes made, with the new shield mechanics taken into account. They probably didn't change too much in this patch, because one "small" change (like added shield stun) can affect a lot of unforeseen things. League of Legends, with its constant patching, taught me a lot about stuff like this, surprisingly. Characters would get like a ridiculously tiny damage nerf, and people would say the character is now worthless and move on to the next one, even though the character is still actually fine. On the other hand, if multiple aspects of a character get buffed or nerfed simultaneously, that character could suddenly become very overpowered, or underpowered, in an instant.

Take Sheik, for instance. What would it take to maker her go from the best character in the game, to mid tier or worse? Nerf the KO power of upair, nerf the safety of Fair, Needles, and Bouncing Fish... and then suddenly she has no KO confirms at reasonable percentages from a grab, her neutral game just got a lot worse, and her other safe KO option, Bouncing Fish, is also less safe. She would immediately drop 10+ spots, just from changing 4 key moves a little bit.


So anyway, has anyone actually tested things? Dair doesn't seem as safe on shield as I'd hoped, but I can see Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt being the big winners of this patch, as far as Kirby is concerned. Ftilt was already quite good shield pressure, and now it mathematically has to be safer. Is Jab->Grab on shield a little less risky? Does reverse Upair give us frame advantage on shield now? What about Upsmash? That was our "safest" smash on shield before, although it wasn't actually safe. It does pretty good damage, has low-ish endlag, and decent shield push, does the increased shield stun make it harder/impossible to punish in some cases? How about... Hammer Flip? Nah, probably not.

 

[TimG57867]

Alright, this thread lost me. I can't tell who's joking or not anymore

Anyway, it's way too early to say anything about Kirby's viability as of this patch. I've barely noticed any changes in the casual play I've been doing on wifi. I've seen people say Kirby's Upair isn't as safe on shield anymore? That doesn't make any sense. That makes the opposite of sense. Calm down and try the game out with your newfound knowledge, guys.

Also, I would (once again) be willing to bet money that the next balance patch (whenever they add the smash ballot DLC character, plus probably a surprise character or something) will have a lot of balance changes made, with the new shield mechanics taken into account. They probably didn't change too much in this patch, because one "small" change (like added shield stun) can affect a lot of unforeseen things. League of Legends, with its constant patching, taught me a lot about stuff like this, surprisingly. Characters would get like a ridiculously tiny damage nerf, and people would say the character is now worthless and move on to the next one, even though the character is still actually fine. On the other hand, if multiple aspects of a character get buffed or nerfed simultaneously, that character could suddenly become very overpowered, or underpowered, in an instant.

Take Sheik, for instance. What would it take to maker her go from the best character in the game, to mid tier or worse? Nerf the KO power of upair, nerf the safety of Fair, Needles, and Bouncing Fish... and then suddenly she has no KO confirms at reasonable percentages from a grab, her neutral game just got a lot worse, and her other safe KO option, Bouncing Fish, is also less safe. She would immediately drop 10+ spots, just from changing 4 key moves a little bit.


So anyway, has anyone actually tested things? Dair doesn't seem as safe on shield as I'd hoped, but I can see Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt being the big winners of this patch, as far as Kirby is concerned. Ftilt was already quite good shield pressure, and now it mathematically has to be safer. Is Jab->Grab on shield a little less risky? Does reverse Upair give us frame advantage on shield now? What about Upsmash? That was our "safest" smash on shield before, although it wasn't actually safe. It does pretty good damage, has low-ish endlag, and decent shield push, does the increased shield stun make it harder/impossible to punish in some cases? How about... Hammer Flip? Nah, probably not.

I've been messing around with CPUs a bit. Don't take my word for it but it seems spamming D-Tilt, F-Tilt, and Up-Tilt on shield is safer now as the extra shield stun makes it harder to get punished in between tilts. It also seems like it's easier to get a D-Tilt out before they punish us if hit the shield with a F-Air. We may not have hit the jackpot like , but I don't think we can say that we haven't benefited at all.

Also shielding against projectiles doesn't seem that much less effective. Unless you are so scared of projectiles that you just want to stand in place with your shield up while they keep chipping away at it, than I don't think Shield is THAT much less effective against projectile spam. Kirby can still use his shield. I just think he'll have to be smarter and more reactive with it. Powershielding still seems pretty effective and it's not like it's our way only around projectiles. We still have our jumps, our jabs that can clank non-transcendent projectiles, and an Inhale that can take enemy projectiles. I don't think we've been rendered as helpless as many will have you believe. I mean it's still early, but I definitely think some people are overreacting. Even if things become harder for us, I am sure we'll still be alright. While our neutral became weaker (which isn't saying much ), we're still a long way off from worst character in the game if you ask me.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Going ahead and throwing this out there: Kirby is going to be OK. We may have to account for things, but what Kirby's strengths are is unchanged. Thanks @Triple R for the realization. I think the nerf mainly reflects on Kirby not getting a whole lot relative to other characters, and Kirby barely had an approach anyways, so eh.

So I guess now we just need to study what we can do now, what others can do now, and et cetera. So yes, I overreacted, and I apologize.

 

[Dessa]

Oops. I actually misread Triple R's post and the sarcasm totally went over my head.

Suffice it to say I'll take him or MikeKirby at their words until given a reason to doubt them.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Meh.

Kirby's not literal trash like I overreacted it as but he didn't get buffed at all. A lot of MUs are going to get worse while very few will actually become better, so there isn't anything we get from this. I'd say he's legit unviable now, he doesn't function properly because this patch wasn't actually accounted and balanced for. A lot of characters straight up wreck us.

although I really couldn't* care less because I'm 100% sure what asdioh said is the truth

#killinguthrowpls

edit: is it COULD or COULDN'T?

edit2: considering I'm "the Kirby scientist" I'll get the exact numbers for Kirby's moves now

I already know what's changed in safety with the patch but I'll post that later

the one thing I'll tell you guys tho

fthrow is op af lol

edit3: By the way, projectiles have different blockstun compared to regular moves. They really aren't buffed that much on shield.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

hihi

I think it's been long enough where I can acceptably double post. I'm just gonna drop this real quick.

Everybody, including super highly intelligent people like Thinkaman may be completely wrong on the way shields have been changed. I can't explain it in detail because I'm still trying to grasp it, but if what Locke says is true, projectiles are weaker on shield drop (and ONLY on shield drop). This means that everything we know about this patch regarding Kirby's approach is wrong, because projectiles are weaker than pre-patch on shield.

If this is true, it means our projectile approaching has gotten much better

yay

 

[KenMeister]

hihi

I think it's been long enough where I can acceptably double post. I'm just gonna drop this real quick.

Everybody, including super highly intelligent people like Thinkaman may be completely wrong on the way shields have been changed. I can't explain it in detail because I'm still trying to grasp it, but if what Locke says is true, projectiles are weaker on shield drop (and ONLY on shield drop). This means that everything we know about this patch regarding Kirby's approach is wrong, because projectiles are weaker than pre-patch on shield.

If this is true, it means our projectile approaching has gotten much better

yay

So are we basically just in the same position as we were in before or do we still have a select few MUs that were worse than before?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I think it's ridiculous some are saying Kirbys the worst now, let's be honest, it's been out for how long? Basically a day. Maybe this patch isn't AS bad as it may look, just give it some time, who knows, maybe this won't be bad, maybe could even help us?
(I am just trying to stay positive) So let's just use this time to find some things that we could benefit from and look on from there, it's not the end of the world, even if he somehow(and I SERIOUSLY doubt he's even close, even if this patch wasn't too good for him)is the worst, I would still use him, though having 3 other mains(debating on 4th, and I know I shouldn't main so many at once)
Means I won't use him incredibly often to notice a difference since I haven't played online much, nor using Kirby as often, sadly that means I am technically getting worse overtime with Kirby

Anyways, let's try and focus on the positives if there are any, I have hope Kirby won't suffer as bad as some are making it out to be.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

So are we basically just in the same position as we were in before or do we still have a select few MUs that were worse than before?

Disjoints will end up being incredibly annoying to deal with, but projectiles really shouldn't be a problem. A couple MUs will still be worse, I can't really think of any in specific that'll be better.

 

[Fanttum]

Did some basic testing yesterday and on shield Dair still has a 1 or 2 frame disadvantage (-2) depending on how fast your opponents grab is. But where is our frame data? Why is kirby like one of the only few without this readily available?

Also I am not seeing this help or hurt us too badly either way. Maybe it's harder to fight heavy hitters, but that has yet to be seen as significant or not. Is run up and shield that bad now? I never really did that anyways and guess I will be sticking with aerial mix ups to approach. First post patch tournament this Friday, and will see how things go.
Projectiles could have been a problem, but now we are hearing they were patched so net even result?

I can see this being slightly worse overall, but people are blowing things up way too much.

 

[Phan7om]

Kirby's definitely notably worse, I think we can all agree on that. But how I see it, the meta will effect his tier placement just as much or even more so than opponents being safer against our shield. People will naturally not shield as much and use more movement options, which will in turn affect a slow character that got a lot off of people sitting in shield like Kirby (which is how people should've been playing the Kirby matchup all along but thats another story) Let me analyze...

Grabs
We all know Kirby got a lot off of Fthrow and Bthrow at low %s. Two of the most viable ways Kirby got grabs was to either 1. read/react to their shield, or 2. shield and punish an unsafe move. Both ways involve shielding (since shields used to be so good). With the shield stun added, the meta will evolve into not shielding as much and using movement to avoid things which makes #1 a lot harder. Shield stun in general makes #2 a lot harder. Kirby obviously cannot move as fast as most characters and doesnt naturally come with a projectile to help gain the advantage. To get grabs will eventually turn into having to hard read movement (of usually faster characters) or rolls/spotdodges while in neutral. Getting grabs now will mainly have to either be when you are in the advantage (such as them getting up from the ledge), or after a hit confirm (such as dtilt trip, dair, or maybe jab > grab).

Dair
Eventually the time was going to come where people would bait Kirby or move from under him and punish Dair's endlag, instead of trying to shield grab Dair, or challenge Dair when they play the matchup; but the mechanics made this possibly come sooner than I originally thought. Like grabs, Kirby's gonna have to hard read movement/rolls/spotdodges/etc. to hit Dairs instead of people not knowing the matchup and doing anything else.

Our shield/movement
A whole bunch of moves are now much safer on our shield, and because of our slow movement and below average range you are not gonna be able to punish them unless the opponent really messes up and/or is bad and throws out moves in neutral willy nilly. To punish, we're gonna have to use our movement to the best that we can, and/or hard read them.

I think you guys get the idea... Kirby's becoming more of a read/bait and punish based character than he was before, assuming they play the matchup right. Its more like his Brawl version except with a worse neutral but better punishes. A majority of Kirby's success is gonna hinder on people not knowing the matchup/never playing good Kirbys (because lets be real there are like 2/3 notable Kirbys that arent gonna go a secondary when they lose, they know who they are).

TL:DR
Because movement is gonna be more viable, people are gonna learn movement tricks and how to use them effectively; whereas before a lot of characters didnt need to be as good at movement since you could just use shield. Good movment is how you beat Kirby unless you're another slow character. We're gonna have to hope people dont play the matchup right (which like no one does) or learn how to just play overall better in order for Kirby/Kirby players to be of any threat.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Won't it still take some people time before they transition into always using their shield, into not using it as often?

 

[Asdioh]

People will naturally not shield as much and use more movement options, which will in turn affect a slow character that got a lot off of people sitting in shield like Kirby (which is how people should've been playing the Kirby matchup all along but thats another story)

Exactly. People always over-shielded against Kirby, instead of just rolling/running away. Which is why, when you play against a good Wario/Sonic/Yoshi/other crazy fast character, it's miserable.

Anyway, if our shieldgrab is worse, then we need to get better at:
1. Running up, and powershielding->grab. It's worth noting that it's possible to run, shield (for like 1 frame) and then, if you hit the grab button immediately after, you cancel your shield with a dashgrab, which has more range than standing grab. That might be worth making a video about?
2. Pivot grabbing peoples' approaches. It keeps us mobile, aka not in shield, and has greater reach than regular grab.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ugh and I thought it was annoying when people on FG did the rolling already.......
Great.....well that means us Kirbys will have to work harder at getting grabs and stuff, but maybe someone like Triple R or MikeKirby may surprise us.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

imo let's all move to the MK boards, warionumbah2 would love it

Being serious though, what Phan7om said is true. We got indirectly nerfed by this patch. Overall the fact that dance trotting and perfect pivoting will have an even better effect now makes me happy because I spent the time learning them, but my main is ded and can't use them. I really don't know how I feel about this, lol.

Phan7om, because you're good with this stuff, does Kirby have any blockstrings? I'm still quite iffy on understanding exactly what blockstrings are (ie: frame trap? guaranteed? held shield?) although I do know some "shield break combos" (N-Air > Charge Shot, Aura Sphere > B-Air, etc) but iunno if they're block strings. Finding out any for Kirby is vital because of Hammer Flip killing at 25%~

also guys use more pp and dance trot lol

 

[ForEverGreen]

Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't a clean N-Air on shield have somewhere around 7 frames of shieldstun now? Surely with its autocancel properties a well-timed SHFF N-Air could be used to guarantee something. Does a grab come out fast enough? I'd test it myself but I just don't have the time to right now.

 

[Phan7om]

Phan7om, because you're good with this stuff, does Kirby have any blockstrings?

I actually dont know how shield stun was effected exactly, all i know is that there is more. Idk if there are any true blockstrings tho. All I know is that its easier to pressure shield with like Dtilt or Jab 1 and 2 timing mixups.
--
Also side note, the shield stun addition was great but like some others have said it feels kind of incomplete... like they still need some changes to compensate for it, like possibly a universal decrease in landing lag or something.

 

[Fanttum]

Grabs
We all know Kirby got a lot off of Fthrow and Bthrow at low %s. Two of the most viable ways Kirby got grabs was to either 1. read/react to their shield, or 2. shield and punish an unsafe move. Both ways involve shielding (since shields used to be so good). With the shield stun added, the meta will evolve into not shielding as much and using movement to avoid things which makes #1 a lot harder. Shield stun in general makes #2 a lot harder. Kirby obviously cannot move as fast as most characters and doesnt naturally come with a projectile to help gain the advantage. To get grabs will eventually turn into having to hard read movement (of usually faster characters) or rolls/spotdodges while in neutral. Getting grabs now will mainly have to either be when you are in the advantage (such as them getting up from the ledge), or after a hit confirm (such as dtilt trip, dair, or maybe jab > grab).

While these are true, Kirby didn't have to rely on grabs so much so as other characters. We still have other options, and if the meta does truly move away from shield then we will have to fall back on more bait and punish tactics, which kirby is only OK at. This change also might help our affinity to an air warrior if we are more so forced to approach from the air.

I actually dont know how shield stun was effected exactly, all i know is that there is more. Idk if there are any true blockstrings tho. All I know is that its easier to pressure shield with like Dtilt or Jab 1 and 2 timing mixups.

Some people are finding out the formula, but the major change is a floor of 3 frames on shield hit. Without frame data if might be hard to say if we have anything "true", but I don't think kirby's moves are fast enough.

 

[warionumbah2]

Lol kirby mains can't handle the raw power of metaknight, you would lose every game with him.

 

[Asdioh]

the one thing I'll tell you guys tho

fthrow is op af lol

Isn't it exactly the same?

Spoiler

Luigi's "nerfed" Dthrow is still better

 

[Ansou]

This thread is pretty interesting, although it doesn't cover multihit moves well. As ForEverGreen said, a very well landed N-Air should pretty much always lead to a Jab on characters that don't have fast grabs. The opponent basically has a 3 frame advantage, but that doesn't give much room for punishes. This pretty much assumes that the N-Air will hit just before landing though, so it's a very strong assumption and might not be that useful.

 

[Altair357]

Lol kirby mains can't handle the raw power of metaknight, you would lose every game with him.

I got 4th of out 34 at my last local with a combination of Kirby and Meta Knight. If I went solo Kirby, I probably would have gotten about 20th. So yeah, I believe in secondaries now!
We Kirbys should probably all pick up secondaries for real.

 

[Dessa]

Secondaries are probably the sensible idea for anybody who isn't playing with a top tier. But I don't suspect a dedicated focus on Kirby is 100% about winning as much as it is about winning on terms a player prefers. And y'know, that kind of dedication helps develop the meta and sometimes breaks things open.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

iunno. My secondaries are Lucas/Peach so I feel much more comfortable than when I solo mained Curbee. I would use MK but I don't like his model and voice, and he's one of those characters that have the tryhard personality so... meh.

 

[Asdioh]

I got 4th of out 34 at my last local with a combination of Kirby and Meta Knight. If I went solo Kirby, I probably would have gotten about 20th. So yeah, I believe in secondaries now!
We Kirbys should probably all pick up secondaries for real.

Well the thing is, if you pick a secondary up, it's usually because it's a better character than your own. It might be "to cover certain matchups," but chances are, if your secondary covers your bad matchups, it's because they're good in some way. Likely better than your main. So if you practice the secondary enough, you'll be comfortable with them, and eventually realize how much weaker Kirby is, and then essentially drop him.

I had more success with Fox than with Kirby near the end of my Brawl career.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

That's at least 6 characters that potentially have the ability to counter Kirby, Having a secondary seems like a pretty good idea. It's only really a problem if you start taking time away from your main to play as your secondary more. Which shouldn't happen if you only can split time between the two or three or however many secondaries you have.

 

[TimG57867]

Honestly, ever since Diddy got nerfed, I feel that hasn't really been a good idea to solo-main ANY character now. I mean even top level players who main widely accepted top tiers have hit snags that they needed a secondary to get around. ESAM almost surely would have gotten 3 stocked at CEO were it not for his , Nario's helped him get some momentum at SSC against ESAM, Dabuz's has helped out a ton, and Mr. R's and his Sheik were on the ropes at Paragon but he almost brought it back against Ally with . And it's not just matchups. Player experience and ability plays a big part too. ZeRo might have had his win streak broken at PAX were it not for his , even though Vinnie went Sheik all the way who should beat Diddy now. Clearly he's not a master of the Sheik ditto so Diddy felt better for him going into that.


Regardless of tier position, if one is serious about competitive Smash, I think having a secondary is highly recommended. With a roster this big and constantly in flux from updates, solo-maining a character seems more risky than ever. There's no telling when your main might end up with an off day.

Well the thing is, if you pick a secondary up, it's usually because it's a better character than your own. It might be "to cover certain matchups," but chances are, if your secondary covers your bad matchups, it's because they're good in some way. Likely better than your main. So if you practice the secondary enough, you'll be comfortable with them, and eventually realize how much weaker Kirby is, and then essentially drop him.

I had more success with Fox than with Kirby near the end of my Brawl career.

I can definitely see that logic. I mean look at Poyo. But it's not always that simple. Sometimes, the secondary you pick may be a better character, but might have bad matchups your old main did well in. There's also familiarity factor. Yes, your secondary might be a better character, but do they feel intuitive enough for you to take into matchups that you already felt comfortable with your old character? And do they feel natural in general enough for you?

Take me for instance. I am currently training to help me cover any situation. Now most tier lists have them all above Kirby so it'd make sense for me to make one of them my primary instead. However, none of them feel as intuitive for me as does. Because I know Kirby inside out and naturally have a feel for a character, I feel that I can compensate even some of his theoretically less favorable matchups. And from an objective standpoint, there could be risk. As good as they all are, they all seem to have big problems with and/or that Kirby does not and both these characters are looking like serious threats. Given how common both are, I personally would want to keep my Kirby in tip top shape and use the others for the few odd matchups I don't like.

Plus there's also potential. Kirby may not have been the biggest winner of the shield nerf (I actually think it's been a mixed bag. I mean better reaction shields against projectiles and nerfed ! Plus are tilts are safer so take what you can get.) However, the nerf was indirect and Nintendo will probably take note of which character's have been hurt and benefited most and buff accordingly in their next patch and chances are, Kirby will likely be on the benefiting end. Right now, we can't take advantage of safer to hit shields as much has other characters, but with the right buffs to our overall frame data, we could possibily benefit in the long run too.) Yeah, not getting to shield grab as much and having to chase down opponents more will be more frustrating, but I personally can only see a few matchups being hit notably hard by that so I personally am not affected.

Honestly, it just boils down to the person really. IMO the patch hasn't wrecked Kirby, and in a volatile metagame like this, I am definitely not gonna drop him on an off patch. I am also not accusing anyone or anything, but just stating my perspective.

 

[KenMeister]

My outlook on this is that this is not even close to the levels of bad when Link got his jab-cancel removed, which made alot of his MUs tons much worse and dropped him into the low tier up until the grab buffs. I feel like Kirby certainly still has his place in the metagame if we can perfect his punishment game. He still has a solid ground game with tilts that need to be respected, a decent aerial game for poking and walling out opponents, and his edgeguarding ability is certainly up there. Yeah, he probably did get hurt a bit because run>shield is no longer a viable option, but he certainly didn't drop off of the face of the earth like Bowser did.

 

[warionumbah2]

I would use MK but I don't like his model and voice, and he's one of those characters that have the tryhard personality so... meh.

Triggered!

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Having a secondary is a must for Kirby, because if he struggles in a matchup, he literally will have a hard time! I'm currently getting more into Ness (who was already my secondary in Brawl, but now he is really good, so it's even better) and Jigglypuff (She's my waif--- a very fun character. Secondary in Brawl too), and I am even beginning to lab Marth and Falcon (Falcon more for the Sonic and Ness matchup. Marth for funsies too. I like that - despite being nowhere as good as before - he is very demanding, and fitting for a pocket character. They were also my secondaries in Brawl). I honestly have a good time against most of the cast, but Kirby just can't keep up that well against Sonic and Ness!
I think we should wait to see how Kirby REALLY is. He's still good, he may be worse now, but he's basically the same. Also, maybe Nintendo will do another balance patch to adapt characters to the Shieldstun changes

 

[Asdioh]

I forgot to mention that practicing secondaries/practicing every character in the game will help your gameplay in general out a lot. You'll learn the character's weaknesses, for one, but also it can put you into a different mindset of what does or does not work. You might end up making better decisions with Kirby, based on your experience with other characters.

 

[KenMeister]

I forgot to mention that practicing secondaries/practicing every character in the game will help your gameplay in general out a lot. You'll learn the character's weaknesses, for one, but also it can put you into a different mindset of what does or does not work. You might end up making better decisions with Kirby, based on your experience with other characters.

That's something I do fairly often actually. I've been moreso into CQC characters lately and have been experimenting alot with Falco and Ryu lately. I feel like if anyone wants to pick up a good secondary without messing up your playstyle with Kirby, I'd pick up Ryu.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I am a Megaman main, do you think Kirby is a good secondary?

 

[TimG57867]

I am a Megaman main, do you think Kirby is a good secondary?

Are you kidding? Kirby and Megaman are GREAT pals. Megaman and his pellets keep this guy from rolling right over Kirby and zones out potential threats like and well. And in turn, Kirby makes a great answer/check to a lot of the rushdown characters like ,,, and that would not give Megaman any breathing room thanks to his ability to force them to approach and/or combo them severely.

 

[KenMeister]

I am a Megaman main, do you think Kirby is a good secondary?

Given that Mega Man got screwed by this patch, probably. Kirby has way better options when it comes to dealing with people up close than anything Mega has right now.

 

[Bolt_Master_Ampharos]

Is Kirby's jab any safer? I know his fair and tilts are.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Mega Man's worse MU is Sheik. So yes, Kirby would be a good secondary.

But this isn't thread to discuss that~

We should start trying blockstrings with Copy Abilities. Get labbing, guys. (but post results in the moveset thread pls)