King Dedede Chaingrabbing Guide (sticky worthy?)

[Aiko]

Contents

1. Introduction
2. Shield Cancel Grabs
3. How to Chain Grab
4. Follow Ups
5. Character Specifics.
6. Credits

V1.1 - Finished character specific.
V1.0 - Wrote most of guide.


1. Introduction

So you've decided to play King Dedede? Then you'll probably want to know one of his most powerful tools, his chaingrab. King Dedede is one of the few characters that have a chaingrab at the moment and it is excellent for racking up damage and setting up for kills. He also has an excellent grab range, making this even easier! This guide will be updated when more information is found out. Feel free to post up ideas and percentages.

If you want to know how to play King Dedede in general, this is not the guide to read. Go to CO18's guide found here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142229

If you need convincing why to play King Dedede, read Tank McCannon's guide found here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=139061


2. Shield Cancel Grabs

Before you can begin chain grabbing, you must know how to shield cancel grab (SC grab). This is essentially jump-cancelling grabs in melee, but done slightly differently. To SC grab you must run up to your opponent, then let go of the analog stick and shield. This will cause you to slide a little bit and cancel the running animation. You can then shield grab, which combined with the slide motion, gives you a large grab range whilst having less lag than the running grab animation. This is essential to King Dedede's chain grab, otherwise it will not work as well.


3. How to Chain Grab

Here we come to the actual method of chain grabbing.

1. Grab your opponent.
2. Add extra hits in, as you see fit.
3. Down throw.
4. Run forward and SC grab to regrab your opponent.

This may not be possible depending on which character you are playing against. Some characters hit the floor and can tech, which gives you 4 choices. These are discussed in the Follow Ups section


4. Follow Ups

As mentioned before, depending on who you are playing against or where you are on the stage, you will need to know your options.

The simplest option is to actually chain grab. This is dependent on what part of the stage you are on, but it assumes you are on flat ground with space to run and SC grab.

If you are at the edge of the stage, you can do 2 throws:
The first is forward throw, which has enough power to kill your opponent at high percentage, or give you a good opportunity to edgeguard. You can edgeguard by using fairs or bairs. If they are on low percentage, a good combo is bair, jump turn and fair, or you can do repeated bairs.
The other throw is another down throw. This will send them slight below the edge so you can run off and fair them, or run off and edgehog (hugging). You can also attempt to jump behind them and bair or dair them in such a way so that they hit the stage and get stage spiked.

Then there is the problem of falling speed. Some characters such as fox and shiek will hit the ground after you down throw them. There are 4 options to cover these characters, but it will take experience and some prediction to do these.

1. Tech on the spot - If the opponent does this, you can run in and SC grab.
2. Tech towards you - Stay where you are and regrab them. You can also add in a small dashdance if you need to space yourself.
3. Tech away from you - Run towards them and keep running into a SC grab.
4. No tech - Here you have a few options at your disposal. You can wait for them to get up in which case you can refer to the 3 previous options. If they get up attack, hold your shield a bit longer before grabbing. You can also ftilt them to hit but this stops any further combos. A combo starter is down air, provided you get the last of the hits in. This will fling them up, ready for you to use another aerial. Another way of getting them up is throwing a waddle dee. If you want to mix it up a bit, you can also run in with a dash attack, which has enough start up lag to trick them if they just get up.

Some characters move far away when they are down thrown. Follow ups for these characters are still being tested.

There are probably some percentage specific follow ups that haven't been discovered yet. Please contribute and I will put them up and give appropriate credit.


5. Character Specifics

Here I will list how the characters respond to down throw and suggest follow ups. This section is still being worked on.

Bowser: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Captain Falcon: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Diddy Kong: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Donkey Kong: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Falco: Hits the ground.
Fox: Hits the ground.
Game and Watch: Hits the ground.
Ganondorf: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Ice Climbers: Moves far away. Chain grab possible but difficult. Other climber also interferes.
Ike: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Jigglypuff: Hits the ground and moves far away. Can't ftilt.
King Dedede: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab
Kirby: Hits the ground.
Link: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Lucario: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Lucas: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Luigi: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Mario: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Marth: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Metaknight: Hits the ground.
Ness: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Peach: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Pikachu: Hits the ground.
Pikmin and Olimar: Hits the ground.
Pit: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Pokemon Trainer:
Squirtle - Hits the ground.
Ivysaur - Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Charizard - Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
ROB: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Samus: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Sheik: Hits the ground.
Sonic: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab
Toon Link: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab but beware. Toon Link can grab you before you grab him.
Wario: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Wolf: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Yoshi: Doesn't fall. Chaingrab.
Zelda: Hits the ground.
Zero Suit Samus: Hits the ground.

I will fill in this section soon. Need to finish testing the physics.

6. Credits

Thanks goes to:

AmcD - For being my lab rat.
CO18 - For teaching me basic chain grabbing.

 

[Zenjamin]

I suggest you put in a section to debunk the myth that properly chaingrabbing is easy.
you cant just Dthrow, Dash, anc SCG.

your opponet still has the option of going away from the grabber, going towards the grabber, or staying in place.

Only, unlike melee chain-grabs, this is done not through DI but by rolling in the first frame you hit the ground.

this means that, in a competitive setting, against someone who knows what they are doing, the DDD chaingrab is actually much harder then many of the melee chain-grabs, as you could wait to read the opponents DI.
but with DDD, you can only guess by reading their patterns.

will you stay and wait for them to roll into you, will you do a normal dash SCG assuming they do not roll, or will you do a prolonged dash to catch them when the come out of the roll away?


If you have never faced this person before and do not know their patterns, it is mainly ruled by luck.



Further, I suggest maping either X or Y to be a sheild. it is just quicker then pushing the spring on L or R all the way down.

 

[James Sparrow]

Doesn't work on ZSS. I think you can ftilt though after the throw.

 

[Aiko]

thanks guys, I will update this soon. I need to start working out %, as my friend has started getting out of some grabs.

James: whilst smashboards went down, I tested all the other characters. Thanks anyway.

 

[Tyrael64]

What is SCG?

 

[Aiko]

shield cancel grab, its explained in the guide.

 

[pesticide]

good guide. is DDD the only character that can chaingrab that we know of right now?

 

[marthownsxd]

This a great guide! Very indeph and informative.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

So can the characters that don't fall down escape the CG by doing a regular roll?

Also, I think the hitting the ground is based on how light they are, not how fast they fall. Nearly everyone falls at the same speed. In Melee, after Fox' shine, the lightest characters fell to the shine, so you had to thunders combo them. I think this is comparable.

 

[strider2k]

Looking at the original post by Aiko, the characters who don't fall like Bowser and Samus can be easily chain thrown? From the 2nd post by Zenjamin, people can just DI away from D3. If they DI away, would that be a reliable escape or is it just situational depending on weight and damage? I wouldn't want to be chain thrown to death on Twilight princess stage with the long bridge. The Snake player on that video couldn't get out.

 

[Zenjamin]

the snake player couldnt get out because he was trying to DI, and you cant get out of the CG by DIing.

the way I understand it, is after you are Dthrown, you are sent a little bit infront of DDD, if you are holding down on the sheild and away, you will roll either towards or away from DDD depending on which way you hold the control stick.

but if the DDD can predict weather you are going to roll towards, away, or stay in place before you actually do it, there is no escape... but he would have to know your patterns VERRY well for that to be reliable.

 

[Aiko]

yeah I've had several people try and get out of chain grabs by rolling or spot dodging. You need to carefully watch their patterns and guess what they are likely to do. From what I've experienced, people tend to try to roll away first, and if it works they usually try to roll away again, in which case you should be prepared to run further forward. You should also watch out for spot dodges. If you grab and miss, they're likely to grab you back. If you cant be bothered making a risk, then just ftilt out of dthrow.

I've got a few vids of myself playing where I chaingrab. I'll try and get some uploaded soon.

This guide will be updated sometime next week. I've had a bit more experience with the CG now.

 

[Aiko]

yeah I've had several people try and get out of chain grabs by rolling or spot dodging. You need to carefully watch their patterns and guess what they are likely to do. From what I've experienced, people tend to try to roll away first, and if it works they usually try to roll away again, in which case you should be prepared to run further forward. You should also watch out for spot dodges. If you grab and miss, they're likely to grab you back. If you cant be bothered making a risk, then just ftilt out of dthrow.

I've got a few vids of myself playing where I chaingrab. I'll try and get some uploaded soon.

This guide will be updated sometime next week. I've had a bit more experience with the CG now.

 

[BIG C]

u should really should add the effects of upward and downward slopes have on ddd's CG. an upward slope makes it much easier for ur opponent to get out of the cg because they hit the ground faster while a downward slope makes it easier to cg. easiest stage to test and see on would prolly be yoshi's island (both) or green hill zone enjoy.

 

[pockyD]

so my understanding is that it works like marth's fthrow chain at 0% in melee... is that correct?

 

[cubaisdeath]

so my understanding is that it works like marth's fthrow chain at 0% in melee... is that correct?

its basically that, but his dthrow has a set knockback.



also, toon link CAN grab you if you don't dash as soon as you can for the SCG. if you are perfect with the SCG he can't do anything about it which is good for us.

 

[Mew2King]

i would like to add to this, i tested DDDs CG vs marth using dash grab and it works fine but you don't have much room for error (marth slides pretty far)

i rarely use shield cancel grab, unless i want to extend the chain grab damage i do, otherwise dash grab works fine, but the punishment for that is that i slide when i dash grab, which the shield cancels the momentum, meaning that i can do more damage as i CG across the stage

also heavy characters and/or ones without much traction i can CG to the edge and then down tilt, I did this vs Vidjos ROB this past weekend at chus biweekly in the tourney to finish off kills at high %. Yes, down throw does combo some chars into down tilt, and is useful near the edge.

another thing, back throw does 16%, so if you're mid stage and dont feel like tech chasing with certain things then you can get reliable 16% from the back throw.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

"To SC grab you must run up to your opponent, then let go of the analog stick and shield. This will cause you to slide a little bit and cancel the running animation. You can then shield grab, which combined with the slide motion, gives you a large grab range whilst having less lag than the running grab animation. "


Sorry if i sound really nooby... but, whats a shield grab?

 

[Aiko]

shield grab is shield (R or L) and then press A to grab out of your shield.

M2K: Do %'s change the length of throw at all? It feels like some characters move further at higher % but the difference is very small. If so i'm going to look into % on characters.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

ah! i see. thanks a lot:D i never shield grabbed in melee, i just never thought of doing that some reason... i would have liked it if i knew this earlier. then again, in melee i almost never used my shield, just dodged. and also thx for this chaingrabbing guide, i could never really chain grab well in melee.

 

[Met]

DEDEDE's chain thrw s to good lolz fuc

 

[Mew2King]

actually nvm, vs marth i do shield cancel grab it's way easier, but most of the time vs easier to CG chars i do dash grab only cuz it's effortless to do.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So, I've heard that some characters can get out of the chaingrab by buffering a roll, but others truly can't do anything about it. Which characters can escape by rolling?

 

[BIG C]

from what I have seen and done with my brawl DDD cg is pretty much escapable by everyone but like wario but idk.

 

[UTDZac]

Can we get some percentage data up yet? Such as when a character that can normally be chaingrabbed reaches a certain percent, they are able to get out of it (such as spot dodging quickly). It's important to know when to expect the opponent to retaliate, especially toon link.

 

[Overswarm]

From what I can tell, there are very few characters that can't get out of DDD's chain grab. It seems that either the timing is so precise that it is inevitable that the opponent has an option at some point or that there are always ways to get out but it is a small window.

The only exception is when there is a wall.

 

[Met]

No it isn't that hard to do and you cannot get out of it f you can be CG at all. Look people it isn't hard to understand dedede's dthrow is sends you a set distance so if you can be CG at all you can be CG at any percent. people that i have done it to so far are.
DK,bowser, ivyasaur, charizard, captian falcon, ike, marth, D3, link, samus, r.o.b., toon lnk, lcario, pit, peach.
there are more but i can't remember.
so at any percent these people can be CG no mater what and the only way that they can get out is if the D3 player messes up.

 

[Overswarm]

No it isn't that hard to do and you cannot get out of it f you can be CG at all. Look people it isn't hard to understand dedede's dthrow is sends you a set distance so if you can be CG at all you can be CG at any percent. people that i have done it to so far are.
DK,bowser, ivyasaur, charizard, captian falcon, ike, marth, D3, link, samus, r.o.b., toon lnk, lcario, pit, peach.
there are more but i can't remember.
so at any percent these people can be CG no mater what and the only way that they can get out is if the D3 player messes up.

Can anyone find frame data on it?


I know it is possible to consistently get out of. Everyone that has ever chain thrown me with D3 (I was D3 as well) has not been able to keep me in for long. I can always roll out. The timing is always the same, so if it DOES take D3 messing up it is the same few frames every time.

It seems to be a pretty narrow window for the D3 player.

 

[Jubeh]

Sorry if I sound like a noob, because I kind of am, but I need clarification that I'm doing this right.

I was playing against my brother earlier, and I was chain grabbing successfully until he realized that he could beat out my grab animation with Marth's up+b. Does this mean I'm not doing it fast enough, or that I'm not canceling right?

 

[Overswarm]

Sorry if I sound like a noob, because I kind of am, but I need clarification that I'm doing this right.

I was playing against my brother earlier, and I was chain grabbing successfully until he realized that he could beat out my grab animation with Marth's up+b. Does this mean I'm not doing it fast enough, or that I'm not canceling right?

He may be able to get out of it in that fashion. No one is sure at this point.

To CG effectively with D3, you need to grab, d-throw, then run forward, shield + grab, repeat.

 

[Jubeh]

That's what I'm doing. Diddy seems to be able to escape like that as well. But characters whose up+b's aren't "attacks" I don't think can, and also guys with slow up+b's like Ike aren't able to stop it. I could be wrong, though.

 

[Met]

Sorry if I sound like a noob, because I kind of am, but I need clarification that I'm doing this right.

I was playing against my brother earlier, and I was chain grabbing successfully until he realized that he could beat out my grab animation with Marth's up+b. Does this mean I'm not doing it fast enough, or that I'm not canceling right?

yeah you are probably not doing it fast enough.