• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Killing vertically

TheGoat

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
584
So I'm sure this must be somewhere but I can't find it. I searched mewtwoking's data page and it might be it, he lists:

100% ---------- Captain Falcon / Falco
97.5% --------- Fox
86% ----------- Link / Sheik
85% ----------- DK
84% ----------- Yoshi
83% ----------- Roy
77.5% --------- Pikachu
74.5% --------- Ganondorf
72% ----------- Marth / Pichu
69% ----------- Bowser
66.5% --------- Dr. Mario / Mario / Mewtwo / Mr. G&W / Samus
63.5% --------- Ness / Young Link
57.5% --------- Ice Climbers / Kirby / Luigi / Peach
53.5% --------- Zelda
46% ----------- Jigglypuff

I know falcon is the hardest to kill vertically. Just looking for difficulty of killing vertically.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,261
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
This list (within half a % of accuracy) actually took me about 200 hours to compile <_<;

I measured what frame each character would die at the bottom of the screen from, after being fast-falled from the respawn cloud. (I paused the game, then held down on the control stick, and when I unpaused, the first frame he is off the platform is the first frame that he fast falls off of it. I started this test from there). I even used Giant and Tiny Melee as comparisons sometimes (but not as often as normal mode, but I still used them sometimes as extra backup. Tiny Melee was used a lot). Example, if we compare character A to character B, and character A dies on frame 53, and character B dies on frame 75, then we REALLY know that it could have been anywhere between 52.0001 and 53.0000 and for character B it would be between 74.0001 and 75.0000. Then we divide 53 with 74, and 52 with 75, and get a range of which these 2 characters would be different from.

Do you understand why? Basically the idea is... let's say they move like 17 pixels per frame or something (just for the sake of arguing...) then we know that it only necessarily had to be within a range... What if on frame 52, you only needed 3 more pixels to move to die? That would be more like 52.2 rather than 52 or 53. So, we know that it's within that range. That's the basic idea.

Other notes: (keep in mind I did not use action replay for this, so it took countless painstaking hours to do this using strategies such as what I will name below)

-Fox's laser rapidness comes out every 10 frames apart (6 per second) except for the first one which comes out on frame 12. I used Falco's lasers sometimes too, but I don't remember his exact numbers off the top of my head. I believe his is frame 23 and then every 24 frames apart. I use Fox's more often than Falco's of course for frame testing purposes.
-Half the spot dodges take 22 frames (frame 23 you would shield) and if you hold down on the C stick (while also holding R obviously) then it comes out 1-frame-off from as fast as possible. In other words, it continuously goes like this: (starting from a shielding position...) 22 frames of spot dodging (frames 1 to 22)... frame 23 is shield... frames 24-45 is another spot dodge, then frame 46 is shield.... etc.
-for rolling the concept is the same pretty much.
-If you do not use the C stick, but instead use the control stick (you have a small buffering window.. idk exact number... but it's not very large) then you can do your spot dodges and rolls with perfect fluid speed without the 1 frame of shield in between them... however I usually don't do this because it's harder to get consistent tests with so I usually use the C stick.
-Every other frame the respawn cloud gives off the flashing light

... so you can kind of get the idea of how I did most of my frame tests now

it was a LOT of work

(and I recheck my work countless times, using different methods to make sure it's accurate).

it was really annoying since I had to make sure I paused at the same frame you died on, so you can imagine how many retests this took. I had to memorize the animations too (especially the Death Explosion).

For this specific test, it was difficult to use certain stages. For example I could make a few comparisons using the Mushroom Kingdom level and fast falling to get comparisons between a few characters (Jigglypuff is the easiest of course), but I have to kill all the blocks first, and then aim them between the platform and the bricks WHILE using one or two other controllers at the same time and making sure to pay attention to my test so I get accurate measurements and measurement ranges. I'd usually be holding at least 2 controllers at once but it's not rare that I'll use 3 at once. Tiny Melee was useful to get more tests and more stages compared from.

As far as your question about Weight goes, Weight determines a few things. Mostly, it determines how far characters get knocked horizontally. 2ndly, it determines hitstun often (of course, once characters become into the air-tumbling-animation their hitstun increases quite a bit). I am not sure exactly how it works for vertical KOs formula-wise, however, I will tell you there are 3 factors, and those are weight, falling speed (not fast falling speed), and falling speed acceleration (falling speed acceleration is by far the least important for measuring when characters get KOd though).

In Melee it seems that falling speed is the main factor for dying off the top of the screen, and then weight 2nd, and then falling speed acceleration as 3rd, in terms of importance.

In Brawl, I believe the order of importance would be weight, then falling speed, then falling speed acceleration (don't quote me on this but I think that's how it is for Brawl at least).

The easiest way to compare these differences is to take a character like Samus, and see how much easier she is to KO at the top of the screen in Melee, and how much harder it is to KO her at the top of the screen in Brawl, even tho she is similar in terms of weight and falling speed.
 

PZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
1,987
Location
Hinesville, Georgia
-If you do not use the C stick, but instead use the control stick (you have a small buffering window.. idk exact number... but it's not very large) then you can do your spot dodges and rolls with perfect fluid speed without the 1 frame of shield in between them... however I usually don't do this because it's harder to get consistent rules with so I usually use the C stick"-M2K

3..?
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,261
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
Sorry I meant to say consistent tests, not consistent rules. I fixed it.

Basically if you hold C stick to the right, (while also holding L or R).... and you keep those 2 buttons held down (C stick to the right, and R), then you will continuously roll to the right over and over automatically

but, you have 1 frame of shield in between this.

If you want to be 100% perfect, without needing that 1 frame of shield in between the rolls, and do your rolling slightly faster, then you can use the control stick. You have a small window to buffer it. In other words, right before your roll animation ends, if you hold left or right, you will buffer a roll in that direction. I don't know the exact number for this buffer window, but it's not very large. Or, you could just time it frame perfectly without buffering. Doesn't matter.

Just random useless info you never need to worry about.

Idk why I even wasted 200 hours on such a list, I'm crazy. Most of my lists are pointless and a waste of time, unless you're really curious on exact or as exact as I could get values for different things. Idk why I did it lol

keep in mind, that this topic is about FAST-FALL falling speed lists. This has nothing to do at all with being KOed, or living, or any of that stuff. It's not very important at all. I'm just crazy.
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
No like where does this apply I know not vs fox's up-smash but where? Just based on the frame of who You play as or what?

Also buffer with c-stick to try to roll with stick seems to be what's up
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,261
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
it's not really very important at all. It just compares fast-fall speeds. There is no way to make a super accurate list of regular fast-falls, so I never compiled one. I'm anal about that stuff. If I can't test something with extremely high precision, I don't post a list of it.

The reason you can't make a super accurate list of regular fast falls is because each character starts off with falling speed acceleration. Fox has more than Falco, but Falco's top speed in falling speed is more, so when it comes to big hits towards the top of the screen, the fast-fall top speed will be significantly more important than falling speed acceleration. I don't post a list if I can't make a super accurate one. That's why most of my lists are simply rankings. Rankings are easy to make compared to putting a highly-accurate number to things.
 

TheGoat

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
584
This list (within half a % of accuracy) actually took me about 200 hours to compile <_<;

I measured what frame each character would die at the bottom of the screen from, after being fast-falled from the respawn cloud. (I paused the game, then held down on the control stick, and when I unpaused, the first frame he is off the platform is the first frame that he fast falls off of it. I started this test from there). I even used Giant and Tiny Melee as comparisons sometimes (but not as often as normal mode, but I still used them sometimes as extra backup. Tiny Melee was used a lot). Example, if we compare character A to character B, and character A dies on frame 53, and character B dies on frame 75, then we REALLY know that it could have been anywhere between 52.0001 and 53.0000 and for character B it would be between 74.0001 and 75.0000. Then we divide 53 with 74, and 52 with 75, and get a range of which these 2 characters would be different from.

Do you understand why? Basically the idea is... let's say they move like 17 pixels per frame or something (just for the sake of arguing...) then we know that it only necessarily had to be within a range... What if on frame 52, you only needed 3 more pixels to move to die? That would be more like 52.2 rather than 52 or 53. So, we know that it's within that range. That's the basic idea.

Other notes: (keep in mind I did not use action replay for this, so it took countless painstaking hours to do this using strategies such as what I will name below)

-Fox's laser rapidness comes out every 10 frames apart (6 per second) except for the first one which comes out on frame 12. I used Falco's lasers sometimes too, but I don't remember his exact numbers off the top of my head. I believe his is frame 23 and then every 24 frames apart. I use Fox's more often than Falco's of course for frame testing purposes.
-Half the spot dodges take 22 frames (frame 23 you would shield) and if you hold down on the C stick (while also holding R obviously) then it comes out 1-frame-off from as fast as possible. In other words, it continuously goes like this: (starting from a shielding position...) 22 frames of spot dodging (frames 1 to 22)... frame 23 is shield... frames 24-45 is another spot dodge, then frame 46 is shield.... etc.
-for rolling the concept is the same pretty much.
-If you do not use the C stick, but instead use the control stick (you have a small buffering window.. idk exact number... but it's not very large) then you can do your spot dodges and rolls with perfect fluid speed without the 1 frame of shield in between them... however I usually don't do this because it's harder to get consistent tests with so I usually use the C stick.
-Every other frame the respawn cloud gives off the flashing light

... so you can kind of get the idea of how I did most of my frame tests now

it was a LOT of work

(and I recheck my work countless times, using different methods to make sure it's accurate).

it was really annoying since I had to make sure I paused at the same frame you died on, so you can imagine how many retests this took. I had to memorize the animations too (especially the Death Explosion).

For this specific test, it was difficult to use certain stages. For example I could make a few comparisons using the Mushroom Kingdom level and fast falling to get comparisons between a few characters (Jigglypuff is the easiest of course), but I have to kill all the blocks first, and then aim them between the platform and the bricks WHILE using one or two other controllers at the same time and making sure to pay attention to my test so I get accurate measurements and measurement ranges. I'd usually be holding at least 2 controllers at once but it's not rare that I'll use 3 at once. Tiny Melee was useful to get more tests and more stages compared from.

As far as your question about Weight goes, Weight determines a few things. Mostly, it determines how far characters get knocked horizontally. 2ndly, it determines hitstun often (of course, once characters become into the air-tumbling-animation their hitstun increases quite a bit). I am not sure exactly how it works for vertical KOs formula-wise, however, I will tell you there are 3 factors, and those are weight, falling speed (not fast falling speed), and falling speed acceleration (falling speed acceleration is by far the least important for measuring when characters get KOd though).

In Melee it seems that falling speed is the main factor for dying off the top of the screen, and then weight 2nd, and then falling speed acceleration as 3rd, in terms of importance.

In Brawl, I believe the order of importance would be weight, then falling speed, then falling speed acceleration (don't quote me on this but I think that's how it is for Brawl at least).

The easiest way to compare these differences is to take a character like Samus, and see how much easier she is to KO at the top of the screen in Melee, and how much harder it is to KO her at the top of the screen in Brawl, even tho she is similar in terms of weight and falling speed.
Oh hey, thanks for the response. I tried a short test, but without taking into consideration DI or anything. I just went on FD with fox, shot the target with lasers to the exact percent I needed, and up smashed with the c-stick. This is the percent I got when the targets die (off the top).

Falcon-102%
Falco-94%
Fox-86%
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,261
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
Yeah, a list like that is way more practical and useful than something of what I made.

I just have extremely high Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

I guess there's several reasons why I did all this stuff:
-OCD (and my perfectionist mindset... this is the only way I could have done all of this stuff)
-curious (the original reason)
-I wanted to contribute something large to the community (probably the main reason overall)
 

Mokumo

Smash Ace
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
885
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
m2k i noticed you can also hold up with the c-stick and it buffers a full jump out of shield. If you keep holding it, it still looks like there's a single frame of shielding when the character lands before they jump again.

is there a way you can buffer a short hop oos instead?
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Hey M2K maybe I don't understand enough but i've always seen in some cases OCD as being good as in focus. Like most people couldn't get themselfes to do this and other studies You have done to try to
better the metagame. Take something and make something better of it. You won't stop nearly as easily as some other guy party why you are amazing.

But maybe the list just needed to be named better.


Yes You can buffer a short hop oos, just You aren't letting go fast enough. I can SHFFl oos using the C-stick fast enough to the point You can't really see the sheild. But because you buffer it, you aren't reacting to let go in time to sh like with the stick.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,261
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
i don't do these tests anymore, I just play the game at tournaments. To short hop, I just tap X. You can do it however you like though. After Apex, i do not have much reason to focus on smash because of the metaknight ban and my age (I'll be 23 by February 5th). I will probably always be around but my focus for the game won't be around until the 4th smash installment. I kind of wanted to leave something behind though which is a large part of the reason I made this.

and yes, OCD does help focus, but only if you're interested in it

I cannot concentrate on things I don't enjoy though

Example in school, I cannot pay attention AT ALL if the subject doesn't catch my interest. If you don't catch my interest, I can't pay attention to it.

If I'm interested in it, I get super into it and I think about it a lot.

It's all or nothing; there's not really any in between, and it's a rather annoying condition to live with overall tbh.

(and I already made a Weight list on my site, using the mushroom kingdom scale).
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Just saying try to look at the positive side, it helps to spire to greatness. Also most people can't really get into something they don't care about any ways XD. I tune out most stuff people say because most of it is worthless. We start with our default hellos and end with our default goodbyes. Really everything is only a point of veiw at the end of the day, might as well be the best it
can be.

But if you quit do it for your reasons if you think being 23 is too old to play video game tournments that is souly YOUR call.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,261
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
no you misunderstand. I just realize it is a bad investment. I cannot play Brawl anymore and I do not see smash getting bigger in 2012 compared to 2011 until Smash 4, and that project has not even begun yet. I should be focusing on college, but I am still at the point where it is too easy that focusing on it does not do much (since I'm still doing associates; unfortunately the 4 classes I took in Ohio at Lorain County College do not transfer, so it was a huge waste of time and money for me. I didn't know that back when I did it...).
 

Thanos828

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
290
Location
Rochester NY
m2k i noticed you can also hold up with the c-stick and it buffers a full jump out of shield. If you keep holding it, it still looks like there's a single frame of shielding when the character lands before they jump again.

is there a way you can buffer a short hop oos instead?
R+CStick buffers any action OoS IIRC. Buffering a short hop would be highly improbable though due to its nature, so rolling and spot dodging would probably be the only options for a comparative frame test

EDIT: It would probably be possible with like Bowser or something LOL
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
I can argee on the fact smash should NOT come before life like college and what have you. But if you
still enjoy the game and you'll have free time it can't hurt to be amazing at tournments if that's your
reason for not wishing to keep going.
 

kevo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
241
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Hey Mew2King. I think you would do the entire a community a favor by continuing playing Melee as a hobby. Show up to big nationals and locals; life is never too busy to not have hobbies (and if it were, it would really suck).
 

Rockenos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
180
Location
Atlanta, GA
M2k is my favorite smasher hands down.


Speaking of which, is there any place where all the information like this is compiled? I find random stuff like this about Smash really interesting and I'd like to know it all. I've found like random information regarding shine hitboxes, hitstuns, etc in the Fox forums but is there a place where alllll the interesting frame data stats are listed?
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
1,126
Location
Boise, ID
NNID
dansalvato
As a part of working on Melee Online, one of the memory values I keep track of is vertical trajectory. I could use the data to determine the 100% exact fall speeds of every character.

However, I think vertical acceleration is more important than velocity when it comes to star KOs. You'd have to factor in both vertical acceleration and character weight to obtain a true value table. Another value I track is vertical position, so I could theoretically plot character coordinates frame-by-frame to really figure it out, but I don't feel like doing that, haha.

If you ever want a pure data set, though, feel free to ask me and I'll tackle it at its source without any guesswork.
 

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
As a part of working on Melee Online, one of the memory values I keep track of is vertical trajectory. I could use the data to determine the 100% exact fall speeds of every character.

However, I think vertical acceleration is more important than velocity when it comes to star KOs. You'd have to factor in both vertical acceleration and character weight to obtain a true value table. Another value I track is vertical position, so I could theoretically plot character coordinates frame-by-frame to really figure it out, but I don't feel like doing that, haha.

If you ever want a pure data set, though, feel free to ask me and I'll tackle it at its source without any guesswork.
Yup. I lost the numbers but I once did vertical KO tests on characters using Luigi's nair (since it sends you straight up, although in principle this doesn't matter), and I found that the proportionality was not constant between stages. That is, if on Yoshi's Story, Puff dies at 75% and CF dies at 125%, you cannot use Puff's kill % on DL64 to reliably calculate CF's kill %. I'm not absolutely 100% certain of this since I didn't document the precise methodology but I'm nearly certain that ÿ matters and that this would have that second-order effect on vertical kill %.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,261
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
Yeah you can't

come on this stuff is obvious man <_<;

haven't you ever played HRC? You know how the curves for moves are different. Like how Puff's rest get's stronger than HRB smash attack after a certain % cuz of the curves.

When different attacks have different curves, and different stages have different height, not to mention that falling speed ACCELERATION is ALSO a factor, you have a pretty complex system

the best way is to find out individual values yourself with something fairly useful

like when fox's up smash kills _____ on a stage, and stuff like that.
 
Top Bottom