KIDs lab.

[da K.I.D.]

This is gonna be a thread where i document the things i figure out about sonic while in training mode trying to practice certain things. Mostly i figure this will just be a reference point for me to have useful thins to go back to when i play for too long and certain things phase out of my game unintentionally. But you guys can feel free to add you own little tidbits if you want to as well.

1. Espy showed me that the less charges you have on down b, the easier it is to hit combos and set ups with consistently. Max charge down b is pretty much only good for frame tight punishes and the over 100 offstage down b to fair combo.

2. Spindash footstool spring dair jab lock still works in this game up to roughly 25 on mid weight characters.

3. Mid weights can be hit by up throw to instant double jump bair as a combo counter combo (as in the combo counter in training mode counts it) on mario, you essentially have to be frame perfect from 0 %

4. On heavy weights, up throw full jump back air is really easy and consistent. I need to look into the possibility of up throw full jump bair, fast fall, double jump up air. If that doesnt work, fast fall the first bair and set land traps

5. Spindash consistency. If you do any form of spindash up air, hold backwards on the control stick while hitting with the up air to make double jumping into another guaranteed aerial much easier and more consistent. At low percents double jump up air is best, but will only be a TMC combo if you hit with the first hit while rising.
At mid percents, you can combo into double jump bair. This one might be easier if you dont hold back duringnthe first up air, since youll have to jump backwards to bair them.
At mid high percents, go back to holding back during up air and get double jump nair

6. Magic percents. There are certain big combos that are inescapable at certain percents.
A. Rising bair to falling bair. Works on mario from 34%- about 50.
B. Using the method in point 5, spindash up air, spring up air is a TMC combo that kills ike at 85%
C. At roughly 105 against most characters, you can hit with flame spindash roll, delay the jump so it misses, into full charge homing attack for a kill confirm off the top.
D. Up throw to back air is a TMC combo on mario from 55 to 95. However rage and Di make this very hard to hit with consistenly. Doing a turnaround up b in reaction to their di is possible and can confirm into bair, but its very hard to see everything and respond accordingly in such a small period of time.

7. Up throw nair should be used in the 20s to max damage without getting punished and having enough time to set up another land trap. Credit to Seagull Joe for pointing this out. Need to test percent parameters on different characters

8. The weakest hit of nair can confirm into bair for kills if you are facing away from them. Needs more testing to determine spacing, percent range, weight classes and other factors

9. Spin dash footstool lock.

10. Regular spring jab locks until roughly 25.
Stomp jab locks until about 80-105 depending on character (see: espys thread)
Double spring jab locks until about 10% later than stomp (need to retest and confirm)

11. Buffered spindash shield drops. Side b above a platform, hold side and shield because you cant airdodgewhile charging, right before touching platform slide from side to side-down. Much easier than initially thought to be, but still requires practice, thanks to bam and espy for teaching me.

12. Footstool dair set ups wor at essentially all percents after 15 or so. This combo pretty much requires minimally charged down b at early percents.
Down b dair set ups have a much smaller threshold and work much more consistently with high and full charge down b, since you need to be ahead of them so they can reach you during the dair start up time. Again thanks to espy for giving me the spark to rearch this

 

[Lizam]

Wow, this is a great info dump. Just quickly went through most of this in training mode.

A. Rising bair to falling bair. Works on mario from 34%- about 50.

Could you go into a little more detail on the setup of this? I've got Mario on the first platform in BF and I do a full hop rising bair, falling bair while moving backwards but it's working at roughly ~10-35% for me. Any higher than 35% Mario gets sent way too far from the first bair.

11. Buffered spindash shield drops. Side b above a platform, hold side and shield because you cant airdodgewhile charging, right before touching platform slide from side to side-down. Much easier than initially thought to be, but still requires practice, thanks to bam and espy for teaching me.

****, this is cool.


Thanks a ton K.I.D! I have a lot more to lab with now

 

[da K.I.D.]

A. Im not talking about just being able to hit with it, im talking abou4 making sure it is officially a Training Mode Counter combo. It only counts as a 28 percent combo if you hit mario after 34.

B. For the sake of ease of testing, i tested this by going to an omega and setting the cpu mario to jump, i would have to be hitting the mario from above with the bottom of the shoe to make it work.

C. In terms of practicality in an actual match, the set up would be spindash up air, to double jump bair, to falling bair. Which turns a 19% combo into a 46% combo. That is why i like to use the term magic percent. Cause incredible things can happen within certain parameters

 

[Camalange]

I'd say a lot of these I know, but definitely interested to try your method for buffering Spin Dash Shield Drops, as that's something I've been trying to figure out myself.

Something to be weary of with Training Mode Combo Counter... In this game, you can technically still cancel hitstun slightly early by airdodge, doing an aerial, etc. and will get out faster depending on which option you choose at what percent.

Something I tested once registered as a true combo, but after having a player mash airdodge, it was avoidable. I learned I could just do it faster and then it couldn't be airdodged, but definitely important to know.

@ Lizam - The Rising to Falling Bair thing is positional and percent specific. It true combos, but you have to be able to recognize it and usually works best if you and your opponent are already airborne.

At the legendary percent, you can also get a Rising Bair, falling Bair, double jump, Rising Bair... And then attempt a falling Bair if your opponent reacts badly.

Yes, I've landed 4 Bairs this way before.

Here are some other fun niche things.

• If your opponent falls out of Spin > Uair, it almost always sets up for a FF Bair (but if your opponent is smart they can airdodge or put out a faster aerial). Still works on a lot of people.

• Falling Nair pops people up and can combo into Bair for kill confirms, but at low percents, it combos into jab, grab, or tilt.

• SH Fair can combo into a grab or Ftilt at really low percents..

If I think of more odd things, I'll continue to contribute, but couldn't this also be in the moveset thread or something? Suppose it doesn't hurt, though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

More discoveries.

After 50%, or whenever up air and nair stop hitting, Flame spindash roll is most effective when you roll past the opponent aftwr you hit them and then go for follow ups, as opposed to hitting them with the spindash jump hit box as well.

13. With this method, spindash to full charge homing attack is a TMC combo on almost every character from 60 until far beyond kill percents, and this combo kills heavyweights at 105.

If you are unsure if it will hit, you can hit with the spindash jump and hit confirm that into a shortened homing attack at all relevant percents. When hitting jigglypuff, all homing attacks must be shortened. The lighter the character, the more precise the spindash to homing attack has to be.

14. With the shortened height that comes with flame spindash, down b can still combo into footstool and all the footstool followups noted in this thread. But its a lotnhard because it always requires you to burn, and properly aim, your double jump. Double jump backwards at early percents, straight up at mid percents (40-60) and forward at anything higher than 70

15. @ Seagull Joe says that up throw spring footstool works. He did not give any percent or character parameters. Need to test. Possibility of spring to footstool to sweetspot dair into follow ups.

Homing attack does between 5 and 12 depending on when you choose to release the attack (thanks to 6wx for this tidbit)

16. Credit to both seagull joe and 6wx here.
It should bE noted that spindash to footstool combos into full damage homing attack on the entire cast aside from zss and a few specifc fast fallers which you have to shorten the homing attack a bit for.

17. Seagull joe also says that at certain mid percents fair and bair can combo into homing attack. He did not specify what level of charge to use for homing attack in tnis situation. Need to test.

Note. I just realized joe says a lot of interesting things that are really vague and inspecific that i have to test.

18. I have at times, accidentally done spindash footstool spring dair at like 80-90, which is way too high for a jab lock, but the hitstun on spring in that situation looks like it combos into a grab if you do a lagless dair. Need to text and confirm whether this is inescapable or not.

19. On the suggestion of Bam, i need to go back to brawl days and look into possibilities off of footstool to fastfall light hit nair into light hit nair combos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mqOVbzfJtY

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Cool stuff, some already known and documented and some only personal knowledge that I never bothered to write down.

I thought Spring couldn't jab reset anymore tbh, based on some training mode tryouts. Thanks for taking the time to list all of these.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I made 2 really big discoveries today.

20. Im not entirely sure of the mechanics but fair and up air are not the best moves to use out of spring anymore. Bair from now on should be theconstant aerial pf choice after spring from now on. It recovers completely faster than up air and fair which means, a. It gives us the ability to fall through platforms sooner and b. It gives us the ability to grab the ledge sooner. Which is important because every sonic i know has died to springing and then fairing and missing the ledge because the time it takes to complete fair in the air, is so long. That they fall past the ledge snap range before the fair is completely over

21. The footstool spring lock combo can still work on stageswith platforms when utilizing the knowledge in point 20.
On battlefield you can spindash footstool spring in the middle of the stage, do a bair at the top of the screen, fastfall, fall through the platform and either hit the forced wake up with a strong hit nair (the 12% hit) mid hit nair (the 8% hit) a late hit nair (the 5% hit) a sweetspot bair, or a fastfall land dash grab. Those options are listed from hardest to easiest. If needed i will make a video for this. As far as I can tell its too slow to land and get another side or down b off.

22. While typing and testing point 21, i learned that at certain percents sonic gets really easy footstool combos out of spindash.
For example on ike, if he is at 45% and spaced right, you can do,
Spindash hop, jump, make sure ike is above the platform, foootstool, fastfall mid hit nair, grab, 1 or 2 pummels, up throw spring up air. Thats a 30% inescapabl combo.
At 90 you can hit ike with spindash hop, footstool, fast fall nair, either into full jump up air into a spring chase or just bair to set up an edgeguard
You can also do these same set ups from the side platform to the top platform which could set up for some very lower percent kills

 

[Espy Rose]

At higher percents just spindash > instant footstool > weak hit nair > bair.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I made 2 really big discoveries today.

20. Im not entirely sure of the mechanics but fair and up air are not the best moves to use out of spring anymore. Bair from now on should be theconstant aerial pf choice after spring from now on. It recovers completely faster than up air and fair which means, a. It gives us the ability to fall through platforms sooner and b. It gives us the ability to grab the ledge sooner. Which is important because every sonic i know has died to springing and then fairing and missing the ledge because the time it takes to complete fair in the air, is so long. That they fall past the ledge snap range before the fair is completely over

21. The footstool spring lock combo can still work on stageswith platforms when utilizing the knowledge in point 20.
On battlefield you can spindash footstool spring in the middle of the stage, do a bair at the top of the screen, fastfall, fall through the platform and either hit the forced wake up with a strong hit nair (the 12% hit) mid hit nair (the 8% hit) a late hit nair (the 5% hit) a sweetspot bair, or a fastfall land dash grab. Those options are listed from hardest to easiest. If needed i will make a video for this. As far as I can tell its too slow to land and get another side or down b off.

22. While typing and testing point 21, i learned that at certain percents sonic gets really easy footstool combos out of spindash.
For example on ike, if he is at 45% and spaced right, you can do,
Spindash hop, jump, make sure ike is above the platform, foootstool, fastfall mid hit nair, grab, 1 or 2 pummels, up throw spring up air. Thats a 30% inescapabl combo.
At 90 you can hit ike with spindash hop, footstool, fast fall nair, either into full jump up air into a spring chase or just bair to set up an edgeguard
You can also do these same set ups from the side platform to the top platform which could set up for some very lower percent kills

20. How are they dying? What way are they springing and dying? I've never died in the way you're saying.

Edit: I say a lot of things, but I don't post too often on the boards cause I'm lazy.

 

[B.A.M.]

so is this the spot for info dumps? leggoooooo

 

[da K.I.D.]

It is now AYYYYYY

And espy, i did say that in my post

How do i make the heads for characters appear in pmy posts?



Im about to spend the whole night doing up throw bair testing

Does sh fair and up airhit people on the ground and when doesn upthrow to bair work? Im liating them roght now in chronological order of who i test, but later i will arrange the sh fair list into effrctively a list of shortest to tallest and the up throw bair list in to a list of easiest to hardest

:gameandwatch: fair never worrks. Up air only works if buffered perfectly
:gameandwatch: 0-13 difficulty level. 4/5

fair hits inconsistently. There seems to be certain parts of his hitbox thatpull mario in all, some or none of the rest of the hitboxes. As far as ive seen, the center of sonics hitbox seems to be his mouth/nose, and the closer you get to hitting the first hit of fair there, the more likely you get oall of the hits. If you hitt too close to his belly or ears mario falls out. This only happens if ypu buffer the fair perfectly out of the SH, otherwise, he will always take one hit and fall out
Up air hits him consistently even when not FP

:Mario: 0-30. Difficulty level start at 5/5 at 0 (not match practical) and scales down to a 3/5 as you get closer to 30 as the upper threshold for the combo

fair and up ait both fully hit him consistently. He may fall out of fair sometimes, but only if youre really sloppy with the sh fair.
up throw bair never works hes too floaty

fair and up air hit consistently
up throw baor never works

all sh aerials work
up throw bair works around 15-25. Difficulty 5/5 not match practical
Quick question, why the fk does bowser fall out of our up smash? Its rediculous and painfully consistent

no matter how its buffered, despite the fact that hes tall enough , the hit stun animation for yoshi will make it so that he always falls out of short hop fair if he is on the ground. Sh up air hits him consistently, buffered or not
Another side note, i never tried before but apparently sh nair hits yoshi with the strong hitbox too if hes at point blank range
in testing up throw bair, ive theorized that the opponent di ing increases the range in which this combo works across the board and makes the combo easier on the percents where it already works. The numbers i give will be rough estimates without di that you may adjust with di as you please
It works from roughly 15-30

all short hop aerial work. Fair up and and nair
up throw bair worksfrom 0~15, timing is difficult because of added hitlag fro. The upthrow animation hitting luma.

Difficulty scales from 5/5 to 3/5 around 15

sh fair, nair, up air all work easily.
up thrpw bair work without a double jump from 0-13 after that in requires a double jump but this combo works from 0~55. And the difficulty level is a 1/5, and goes to a 2/5 after about 30. This is the easiest one so far so practice on him if you need to work onntiming it properly

wario is by all measures, fairly short, definitely shorter than yoshi, but sh fair and up air work on him perfectly fine buffered or not. If you are right on top of him sh nair will hit but its not worth going for due to inconsistency
work at 0 with no double jump. Works with a doubke jump until roughly 35
Difficulty. At 0, 1/5. At 1-15, 3/5(gotta buffer the double jump super early. From 15-30, 2/5. 30-35, 4/5
Quick note. I randomly found that d tilt DOES ACTUALLY combo into things off the trip, you just have to buffer a dash attack or dash grab asap to get it to work.

no surprise, sh fair nair, up air and bair all connect on him properly and with out need for perfect buffering
up throw to bair works, 0-10 full jump buffered bair, 10-20 full jump slightly delayed bair. And from 20-50 with double jump bair. All version are difficulty of 1/5

Side note. Falling upair might be sonics best move need to test whether its safe on shield

 

[Damandatwin]

just to clarify, when you're talking about the SH fair/upair in your last post are you talking about rising (like buffered) or falling?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Rising yes, when i say frame perfect, i mean buffered aerials.

sh fair hits but has to be spaced so youre hitting diddy right on his head right with the center of the fair (near sonics eyes/nose). sh up air has to be buffered perfectly, and early short hop nair never hits him.

up throw to full jump bair works from 0-14 (1/5) 15-55 works with double jump. 15-40 is a 2/5 difficulty, and 40-55 is a 4/5.

none of sonics buffered SH options hit game and watch when he is on the ground.
up throw bair never works below spring follow up percents.

all of sonics buffered SH options hit mac when hes standing. the nair and fair have to be positioned at macs head in order to hit properly. this is important because in most of his animations, he leans forward, which makes it harder to hit his head from behind.
up throw to 1 jump bair works from 0-23 buffered from 0-13, delayed from 14-23. Double jump bair works from 24-65. difficulty is 2/5 from 25-55, and 4/5 from 55-65
anytime you dont have to double jump to get the bair, the difficulty is always 1/5.

all of sonics SH options hit link, buffered or not.
upthrow to 1 jump bair works from 0-17. up throw to 2 jump bair works from 17-60. 17-50 is a 1/5. 50-60 is a 5/5. not worth going for after 50.

all sh aerials work on him
up throw 1 jump bair from 0-24. up throw 2 jump bair from 24-50 (3/5) and from 50-60 (5/5 not match practical)

none of sonics SH aerials hit pikachu. perfectly buffer up air will hit at very specific parts of his idle animation, but its not reliable or worth trying.
up throw 2 jump bair works from 0-15 at a 4/5 difficulty.15-25 works but is a 5/5

I kinda want to have someone make an app out of this
A character specific combos app.

all buffered sh aerials work easily on her

up throw double jump bair is a combo from about 0-20 but its not match practical imo 5/5 difficulty

all sh aerials hit her when buffered. If fair is not buffered, fair will not connect
up throw one jump bair. 0-7 buffered bair. 7-14 slightly delayed bair 10-25 double jump bair (3-4/5) 25-30 (5/5)

all aerials obviously hit him standing. Fun fact, full jump nair and full jump up air both hit ganon. Making for a bunch of easy really good combos
Buffered 1 jump bair, 0-10. Delayed 1 jump bair 0-17. Double jump bair, 10-40
sh fair and up air hit standing tink, but they have to be buffered and spaced properly. Nair and bair whiff
up throw double jump bair works from 0-25 but is not match practical. 5/5 difficulty

Completely unrelated.
One charge down b hits repeatedly for a lot of damage on most characters and may be a good punish option. Kurogane website says earliest down b hits is frame 17, but that doesnt seem accurate, one charge down b seems to be pretty fast and should be looked into further.

all aerial work on her from sh. Full jump naor and up air also hit her
0-15 up throw buffered bair. 15-25 up throw one jump timed bair. 20-45 up throw double jump bair. Can be done at 45-50, not match practical.
Make sure you are tight on this combo with her. She will down b out if not

all 4 aerial hit pit out of sh. Sh up air and nair hit but nairs spacing is so tight that its not practical
up throw buffered 1 jump bair 0-2%. Single jump slightly delayed bair 3-10%. Double jump baor 10-40

While testing aerials on palutena, i figured out why people fall out of our up air.
Most of this is known but for those of you that dont.
First hit of up air has set knockback.
It also has 2 hitboxes, the ones from hisgroin out to about his socks, and a seperate one on his shoes. Both of them send you towards sonic, regardless of which side you are on
The inner hitbox hits foes with weak knockback and send the opponent up at bout a 80 degree angle, nearly straight up. The other hitbox send upwards with stronger knockback at about a 45 degree angle.

This is supposed to make up air hit more consistently, since most tmes in neutral youll hit at close rangewith the inner hitbox and the second hit will hit because hit one sends you directly above you, where the second hitbox is.
And during spindash you might be moving too fast so the outside of the up air is what will hit but with the adjusted knockback and angle, even if the spindash sends you way past, the second up air hit with work anyway.

The problem comes in when you either arent moving but hit with the outter hit or are moving fast but still hit with the inner hit. If you do full jump up air but hit the outer hit, you are usually going to stay in the same area while they shoot behind you, missing the second hit. To counter act this, you have to move backwards in the air after you jump and do the up air to get the second hit. If you do a full jump buffered up air and hit with the inner weaker hit, the wont be hit high enough to combo into the second hit.

HOWEVER, this opens up a neat little trick for us.
If you do full jump up air at point blank on some characters, (like pit and palutena) the first hit will put them below the second hit of the up air, and you can footstool them after the up air. this combos in to all of our footstool shenanigans. Im not sure if this is escapable though. If you want to play it safe you can try to nair or bair on the way down but the opponent can stuff that with their own aerial if theyr are fast enough.
nair, bair, fair and up air all work out of a short hop, up air and nair work out of full jump, but nair is too tight to be practical
up throw bair does not work at any percents

On marth and palutena and pit so far, full jump nair hits them only if they are closer than clipping range. Aka the range where characters are inside each other, and after half a second, the game pushes the characters apart

all sh aerials hit marth, fair must be buffered or he will fall out. Full jump up air hits him normally, nair must be in clipping range, fair does not work
0-12 up throw to 1 jump buffered bair. 10-20 up throw one jump delayed bair. 15-45 double jump bair consistently

all short hop aerials work on him, if you dont buffer the fair he will fall out. full jump nair works in clipping range, and full jump up air has to be very tight in order to hit, would not recommend either in serious match setting.
0-14, up throw 1 jump bair, 15-45 double jump bair.
As far as i can tell, if they di behind you for the up throw, you can generally add 10 to the percents on this list and they will still work.

only sh fair and up air hit him and they both have to be buffered from the group.
0-9 one jump bair. 10-40 double jump bair. 40-50 is possible, but is a 5/5 difficulty

it requires tight spacing but up and and fair can both hit standing kirby in a short hop if buffered
double jump bairworks out of up throw from 0-25. 4/5 difficulty from 10-20 and 5/5 difficulty from 0-10 and 20-25
based on my testing of kirby the characters that are widest near the ground, those who are round are most susceptible to slow spindash damage, while humanoid characters who are thin near the ground dont take as much damage from it.

all short hop aerials work on him. full jump aerials work on him as well. nair has to be in clipping range, but full jump fair can combo into falling up air at really low percents. and full jump up air combos really easily
1 jump bair 0-21. delayed 1 jump bair works from 20-36. double jump bair 30-80. 70-80 is hard. bu everything
below that is free.
none of our sh aerials hit him in any meaningful way.
buffered bair 0-6. delayed. 7-11. double jump 10-35

... thank god. im finally half way done.

 

[MarKO X]

I kinda want to have someone make an app out of this
A character specific combos app.

I hate being the guy that talks about what he's going to do in the distant future as opposed to actually doing it, but when i start working on making mobile games, i might work on an like this as an exercise.

 

[da K.I.D.]

buffered sh fair, nair and up air all hit fox. if not buffered fair will drop, and nair will mix, but up air will still hit. full jump up air is possible, though very inconsistent.
buffered bair 0-9. delayed 10-19. double jump 15-45
i havent been listing difficulty values because each character follows largely the same progression. 1 jump bairs are super easy. getting the delay timing in the later percents is slightly harderdouble jump bairs are harder at the lower threshold, quickly scale down after 5 percent or so, and then steadily scale up in difficulty as you reach the upper threshold. in the fox example, 0-10 is do it with your eyes closed easy, 10-15 is tricky but not hard, 15-20 is kinda hard to mash the double jump out, 20-35 is simple, then 35-45 is where i might consider not going for it in a tournament match because its easier to drop it.

quick random note. I might have to go back and test this on multiple characters and figure out some better follow ups. But the definitely merits further exploration, between 3-15 percent, sonic can combo up tilt into up tilt on fox. from 3-10 this can set up for a grab, and 10-15 im pretty sure it combos into fair strings. its weird and im pretty sure its a fast faller thing

sh fair doesnt have to be buffered, nair hits consistently, up air hits consistently, bair only hits very rarely. full jump up air hits him consistently, which hitbox you get seems to be random.
0-6-11. double jump bair 10-40
from now on im just going to use #-#-# to depict 1 jump bairs. and when to switch from buffered to delayedbairs

charizard has a weird hitbox. because his wings do not have a hurtbox, and he leans forward with his head and neck, sh up air and nair hit him from the front fine, but they both have to be closer than you assume to hit form the back in order to hit his actual back, since his wings cant be hit. fair has to be spaced to hit him directly in the face or else it wont hit. full jump up air hits him.
double jump bair 0-15 not match practical imo.

sh fair need to be buffered or it will drop, sh nair, and up air hit consistently. bair and all full jump aerials whiff.
one jump. 0-13-26. double jump bair 15-65
note. the higher the percent, the harder it becomes to space properly due to DI.
sh fair and up air hit her when buffered. no other aerials work on her when standing
double jump bair 5-15 works but none of it is ever match practical.
only sh up air and fair hit him standing
double jump bair. 0-30

another weird discovery.
i dont know how or why it works this way or even how its possible for it to work this way, but some how up tilt hits differently based on whether you hit them on the ground or in the air. hitting an opponent on the ground results in way more knockback. sonics dair can do this as well, but that makes sense seeing as the game can tell whether you are on the ground or not when it hits you. the weird part to me is that after the first hit of uptilt, the opponent is airborne either way but the game changes the knockback for the move anyway. thats why the double uptilt combo i spoke of earlier can combo in to other things. at such low percents grounded up tilt hits them high enough for them to fall into the second uptilt (seems to be a fast faller exclusive thing) and the second up tilt sends them almost nowhere in comparison, which is what allows for the fair, f tilt or grab followups. a combination of the 80 degree KB angle on uptilt and the completely lack of any kind of horizontal range, is the only thing keeping this move from being able to combo into itself repeatedly like marios.

all sh aerials hit rob. nair is good because of how wide he is. full jump buffered up air hits him consistently.
single jump 0-9-14 double jump 10-50
one charge spincharge (minimum charge down b or msc i guess for short) is very effective vs rob.
buffered sh fair hits, but sometimes drops. buffered sh up air hits consistently, buffered sh nair, hits but spacing is incredibly tight.
it can be made to work from 5-20 with a double jump but its not match practical.
everything hits falcon, except for full jump fair. sh fair needs to be buffered or it can drop as well. nair is good range
0-21-32. 20-70
MSC is very effective

nair has to be clipping range. fair/up air has to buffered.
0-30. always requires double jump
MSC is moderately effective.

Sh fair and up air have to be buffered.
0-30. double jump only. not practical
MSC is very effective

fair must be buffered. up air does not. bair doesnt either. nair hits. full jump up air hits
0-30. need double jump.
MSC is moderately effective

random new thing thats probably not new to a lot of people. Short hopping puts you at exactly the right verticle distance for the spike hitbox of dair to hit someone thats hanging off the ledge. if you cant get a charged f smash or down smash below like 80 or so, and depending on character, spike dair is the best punish for a second ledge grab.

sh fair must be buffered, he has a histun animation that drops him out if you dont. nair, up air, and bair all hit him easily as well. full jump up air works on him as well.
0-9-14. 10-60
MSC average.

are all identical to the characters they were cloned from.

only buffered fair and up air out of sh
0-30 with double jump. 4/5

sh fair must be buffered. up air hits consistently nair works badly
0-13-22. 10-60
MSC is very effective.

short hop nair tends to be a reliable option against anyone taller than sonic and not worth trying against anyone his height or shorter.

fair, up air hit consistently. nair hits well because sonics head is so big and wide and his spines count as a hurtbox
0-30, always requires double jump. (not practical
MSC hits 2-3 times typically (average)

sh nair, fair and up air hit consistently. bair has to be buffered
0-45 always reuires double jump
MSC hits 2-3 times (average)

fair and up air have to be buffered.
0-25. always requires double jump. ( not practical)
MSC hits 4 times (very effective)

fair has to be buffered, up air does not. nair hits well. bair must be buffered. full jump up air hits but rarely combos into second hit
DISCOVERY. full jump up air with the out side hit combos into nair if the first hit misses. very easy to do on roy since you will almost never get the up air out fast enough for the second hit to connect.
0-17-29. 20-65.
MSC hits 2-3 times (average)

up air hits. fair and bair needs to be buffered, nair hits from an ok range.
0-8-17. 0-55
MSC hits all 4 times 2/3rds of the time (effective) and 3 times the other 1/3rd of the time (average)

fair and bair has to be buffered. up air hits easily. sh nair hits. full jump up air hits
in limit 0-20-40. 20-70. Out of limit, 0-12-29, 20-65
MSC hits 3 times (average)

 

[da K.I.D.]

I dont think anybody knows this, but you can scoop people off the ledge after their invincibility goes away with up smash.

 

[Camalange]

I dont think anybody knows this, but you can scoop people off the ledge after their invincibility goes away with up smash.

Only certain characters, I'd imagine? I know some characters are prone to being caught off the ledge more easily than others.

Never seen it with Usmash though. Out of a hyphen smash or just a standing Usmash? I'd like to see it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I found it out by doing it to a bayonetta and a toonlink in tournament.

Both running and standing. Next week, i willtest on every character.

 

[Damandatwin]

I believe ganon has the lowest hurtbox on the ledge, so if it works with him it will probably work with everyone.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It does not work on ganon.

I havent tested it on everyone, but i checked him. And since it doesnt wprk, looks like im gonna have to check it on every character in the game

Characters that can get hit by up smash while on the ledge
*^ * # * ^ ^ * * ^ * *

Characters that cannot
^ ^^*#

*only use at high %s first hit of up smash does not connect into the rest at low %s
^in the top group, does whiff sometimes, but is rare. In the bottom group, does hit sometimes but is too rare to be relied upon
#randomly falls out of the up smash sometimes for some reason.

Another cool note, i think ive figured out the spacing for ledge dair spikes that keep us on stage.
Stand at the ledge so that youre in the teeter animation and then jab one time. That will put you in the perfect spacing 90% of the time
you have to be very precise with dairing at the top of your short hop, since his nose goes very high above the stage
you have to dair early in thw short hop
are harder to space horizontally than normal too
Effectively Does not work on
actually requires you to be facing the stage even to get the spike when going offstage

 

[ToonKake]

(Evil Laughs)

HERE WE CAN PLAN OUT EVIL SONIC TECH TO DESTROY EVERYONE.

 

[Giovani44]

The up smash to pull people off ledge always seems to catch people off guard, i remember when i did it, i was quite surprised by it

 

[Myst_R]

da K.I.D. This thread is a ****ing gold mine! Really nice job! Every single ****ing time I feel bad about my potential improvement with Sonic, I look at others characters communities, I look back at Sonic community and I just can't help, we have the best one!

This should be pinned and better organized, but this is just truely awesome!!!!!

I always feel like we should have a whole forum just to gather Sonic's data ^^

 

[Camalange]

da K.I.D. I always feel like we should have a whole forum just to gather Sonic's data ^^

I mean, that's what this is. A forum. With data.

Also, don't censor dodge.

 

[da K.I.D.]

After pound this weekend, im actually going to be putting most or all of this info into an easily accessible google spreadsheet for everyone. Bowser and dk players have a list on their phones of when their up throw kill combos work on every character. Im going to do something similar but for like a dozen differnet set up and combos.

Also i just thought of something else to test.
Im going to find out up smash kill percents in training mode, and then im going to translate it to how much rage you need to kill them at the same percent with di. Itll probably be onenof those things thats only useful to me.

Also, there is some magic percent range where spindash up air spring up air is a true combo that kills. I need to figure out what that is

 

[Myst_R]

I mean, that's what this is. A forum. With data.

Also, don't censor dodge.

I may be misunderstood because the word forum in english might differ from the one in french.

I meant that we have so many "theory workers" in our Sonic section that we should have more subsections to properly organize the knowledge.

Don't you try to make fun of me before trying to understand me, Camalange ?

Anyway K.I.D. is doing an amazing job and as a Sonic player, I am thankful for this.

P.S. : Sry for the censor dodge, I didn't know what censor dodge meant but I won't do it again =)

 

[Camalange]

Could you imagine a Sonic app? That'd be so specific but awesome.

Also, there is some magic percent range where spindash up air spring up air is a true combo that kills. I need to figure out what that is

That one's tricky because I also find that it's rage and DI dependent.

Generally I seem to true kill combo Uair > Spring >Uair around the 80-100% percent range.

I may be misunderstood because the word forum in english might differ from the one in french.

I meant that we have so many "theory workers" in our Sonic section that we should have more subsections to properly organize the knowledge.

Don't you try to make fun of me before trying to understand me, Camalange ?

Anyway K.I.D. is doing an amazing job and as a Sonic player, I am thankful for this.

P.S. : Sry for the censor dodge, I didn't know what censor dodge meant but I won't do it again =)

I'll let it slide.

This time.

To be honest, I'd normally let a censor dodge go if it's still somewhat censored, but back to back like that I can't really take a blind eye to.

 

[Espy Rose]

Just posting visual stuff for KID's last big post:

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm going to put all of this info along with a few other things (kill percents for a bunch of different moves) in to a Google sheet.

It will be done and available to everyone by Shine

 

[Camalange]

I'm going to put all of this info along with a few other things (kill percents for a bunch of different moves) in to a Google sheet.

It will be done and available to everyone by Shine

Ever have any luck with trying to make an app?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I don't know how to do that mess lmao

 

[Camalange]

I don't know how to do that mess lmao

Gotta find someone who does.

 

[divade]

Wow, this is a great info dump. Just quickly went through most of this in training mode.




Could you go into a little more detail on the setup of this? I've got Mario on the first platform in BF and I do a full hop rising bair, falling bair while moving backwards but it's working at roughly ~10-35% for me. Any higher than 35% Mario gets sent way too far from the first bair.



****, this is cool.


Thanks a ton K.I.D! I have a lot more to lab with now

I. The air dodge part, if you do this on a platform you do an instant fall through.

 

[Myst_R]

I often read about class weight (heavy, mid etc) but is there an actual list to classify them ?

These terms "heavy, mid, light" are often used when talking about combos. But, isn't fall speed to be considered too ?

So my last question is, is there a chart referencing every character according to their ability to be comboed ?

 

[da K.I.D.]

No there isnt.

Each characters suseptibility to combos depends on the size, weight and fall speed of the characters getting hit as well as the character trying to combo them and the combo being attempted.

Example Fox gets combod harder by moves that have very low mostly verticle knockback (up tilts) because he will fall back into more moves because he falls so fast. Bowser gets comboed harder by quick aerials because he doesn't go anywhere when he gets hit and most characters. Can follow him in the air.

It all depends

 

[kj22]

Just posting visual stuff for KID's last big post:

can't resist adding my own x;