Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[crispfish]

I wasn't trolling... You really should dash back to PS low lasers.

sorry i thought that you coudlnt do anything if your dashing back and powershield

whats the point of doing that since the laser has hardly any stun and your facing away so it will take even more time to turn around grab or something

sorry i am new as it is so i took the previous posts the wrong way. wud love more marth insight btw sorry for being jerk kadano

 

[Kadano]

What is the frame window for pivot powershielding falco lasers? From what I can tell, powershielding freezes your character in to the position he was before shielding, and hurtboxes might be better aligned during the pivot frame. I expect the window to be 0-1 frames if you shield on turn frame since I think your speed matters most for the window.

Pivot powershield seems to be 1-2 frames. Because of the great hurtbubble alignment, it seems like there always is at least one frame during which you can powershield. At least, all spacings I’ve tested so far gave frame windows of 1-2 frames for a given pivot spot.
When we were talking about shield stops to pivot grabs, I mentioned that it’s possible to input pivot and L/R at the same time, which will cause a turn and on the frame afterwards a shield (if the shield button is held). I discovered that it’s impossible to powershield with this kind of shield input. Although I held the shoulder trigger down to digital level, I always got GuardOn instead of GuardReflect. When I did analog → digital transition, I got GuardReflect, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to practice this timing as it’s really bad for regular powershielding.

The second question is do you get enough speed on the first few frames of dash after turn to extend ps window?

Dashing away seems to make it a 3 frame window, so yes.

Landing during a B does refresh the pseudo-jump flag, but the landing lag of any aerial attack doesn't refresh it. I wouldn't have brought this up, since this isn't that significant, but the post is linked to the OP and is the only information I found on the boards about refreshing of B.

Thank you! Seems I jumped to early conclusions back then. I edited the post, I hope it’s correct now.

whats the point of doing that since the laser has hardly any stun and your facing away so it will take even more time to turn around grab or something

sorry i am new as it is so i took the previous posts the wrong way. wud love more marth insight btw sorry for being jerk kadano

It’s just to powershield more consistently. If you are able to powershield 10/10 lasers by doing dash away powershields, it’s much more likely that the Falco will feel intimidated and/or approach than if you are doing standing powershields with a success rate of 6/10.

There is Marth frame stuff insight in every page of this thread, did you read all of it already?
If you want more general insight, I suggest reading the big “Ask …” sticky thread in this subforum. Especially posts by Dr. Peepee and Umbreon.

 

[crispfish]

thanks
this is the only character specific forums where **** actually goes down
cuz marth mains to good at talking about the game aka umbreon and PP lol
ill search the ask cactuar thread ty

 

[1MachGO]

@ Kadano

If Marth tips dtilt against an opponent's shield, will a 2nd dtilt be able to beat out most wavedash OoS options? Could Fox beat it with something like wavedash out of shield to shine? Also, what would be the viability of wavedash out of shield to re-shield as a purposeful way to shield grab the 2nd dtilt?

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano

If Marth tips dtilt against an opponent's shield, will a 2nd dtilt be able to beat out most wavedash OoS options? Could Fox beat it with something like wavedash out of shield to shine? Also, what would be the viability of wavedash out of shield to re-shield as a purposeful way to shield grab the 2nd dtilt?

The second dtilt will hit Fox during his last waveland lag frame. Thus, neither shine nor shieldgrab are valid options for him if you start your second dtilt as soon as possible.

 

[Tee ay eye]

sorry i thought that you coudlnt do anything if your dashing back and powershield

whats the point of doing that since the laser has hardly any stun and your facing away so it will take even more time to turn around grab or something

sorry i am new as it is so i took the previous posts the wrong way. wud love more marth insight btw sorry for being jerk kadano

the reason dash-away powershield works is because marth shifts his body forward when he does a dash. when standing, the powershield bubble is around his body, but when he shifts his body forward, outside of its original place, the powershield bubble ends up BEHIND marth. because this is the case, it is impossible to powershield low-laser when you're dashing forward.

some people think they powershield easier when they dash forward, but this is only when they shoot the lasers high enough to go over your head

 

[crispfish]

the reason dash-away powershield works is because marth shifts his body forward when he does a dash. when standing, the powershield bubble is around his body, but when he shifts his body forward, outside of its original place, the powershield bubble ends up BEHIND marth. because this is the case, it is impossible to powershield low-laser when you're dashing forward.

some people think they powershield easier when they dash forward, but this is only when they shoot the lasers high enough to go over your head

can you explain what your followups with the different types of powershields are
only thing i know is powershield grab when they laser in your face.

what do you do with a dashback ps ?

 

[crispfish]

the reason dash-away powershield works is because marth shifts his body forward when he does a dash. when standing, the powershield bubble is around his body, but when he shifts his body forward, outside of its original place, the powershield bubble ends up BEHIND marth. because this is the case, it is impossible to powershield low-laser when you're dashing forward.

some people think they powershield easier when they dash forward, but this is only when they shoot the lasers high enough to go over your head

can you explain the followups with a ps laser

all i know is ps, instant grab if they laser in your face or approaching laser

also what do you do after dash back powershield?

 

[Xyzz]

If they're further away and slightly staggered by the laser you can get WD > grab

 

[crispfish]

i am better at observing with marth then i am with fox which was my main so i was looking to switch btw

one more thing is i was experimenting with dash powershield which is deemed impossible with low lasers shot by falco mains in 2014

i noticed i could get them inconsistenly with lvl9 cpu standing lasers. im guessing that standing laser is at a height where shield is still around the laser hitbox?

this is my last techskill related question sorry for the powershield ****

 

[AustinRC]

It's okay to practice power shielding against CPU's that do standing laser. However keep in mind there are some heights of laser that make it more difficult and I think even maybe impossible to PS. There is a guy I play with whom is absurdly good at getting around PSing as Falco. If Falco does lasers in a high, low combination of lasers it prevents the PS from hitting him. Also Falco can aim for your head or feet to shield poke sometimes too. Just keep these things in mind. PS is a very good tactic to have but if there's any advice I'd want you to take away is that you shouldn't base your whole game around it in regards to the Falco matchup it's simply a strong tool.

 

[hectohertz]

@ Kadano does dash forward/back PS extend the PS window with sheik (against lasers, without crouching)

 

[Tee ay eye]

whenever you cover people's tech options on top platform, should you use the part of the uair directly above your head, or the lower part of the uair which is in front of you?

 

[AustinRC]

Depends on what you want I'd imagine. The part above your head could lead to more juggling and keep your opponent on platforms. I use full hop uair and hit with the front part to lead into kill options like fsmash when you land on the platform after. Just depends.

 

[Kadano]

whenever you cover people's tech options on top platform, should you use the part of the uair directly above your head, or the lower part of the uair which is in front of you?

You use all of them to cover every tech option. See Fox section gifs in the OP.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Kadano I remember you being an advocate of not using headphones for the sake of audio stimulus allowing faster response times: but what's your view on having rumble on or off?

Also would you know of any articles on how precise humans/top players can be? Like performing 1 frame window techniques over and over, I always thought a speedrunner would have made a nice one but I haven't seen any; maybe there's already non-video game related articles that can break it down on just how good we can get in preciseness (not exactly response times).

 

[Kadano]

i noticed i could get them inconsistenly with lvl9 cpu standing lasers. im guessing that standing laser is at a height where shield is still around the laser hitbox?

Take a look at the OP, Falco section, SHL powershield diagram. Standing lasers have the same height as the third lowest SHL.

@ Kadano does dash forward/back PS extend the PS window with sheik (against lasers, without crouching)

Standing PS: 2 frames against lowest lasers
Dash forward PS: 0-1 frames against lowest lasers (more often 0 than 1, depending on your position)
Dash away PS: 3 frames against lowest lasers.
High lasers that aim for your head in a standing position cannot be PS’d. You can dash/run/crouch/dtilt/whatever under them though, so they really aren’t a threat.

@ Kadano I remember you being an advocate of not using headphones for the sake of audio stimulus allowing faster response times: but what's your view on having rumble on or off?

Also would you know of any articles on how precise humans/top players can be? Like performing 1 frame window techniques over and over, I always thought a speedrunner would have made a nice one but I haven't seen any; maybe there's already non-video game related articles that can break it down on just how good we can get in preciseness (not exactly response times).

I like to have rumble on so if my eyes lose track, I have feedback on what might be happening. If you are thinking of reacting to your rumble and SDI, that’s too few frames to react in time. It does work for meteor smashes, though. Athough I don’t think there’s any advantage to visually checking for downward momentum of your character.

I don’t know of any such articles, but I’m interested as well.

 

[hectohertz]

Take a look at the OP, Falco section, SHL powershield diagram. Standing lasers have the same height as the third lowest SHL.


Standing PS: 2 frames against lowest lasers
Dash forward PS: 0-1 frames against lowest lasers (more often 0 than 1, depending on your position)
Dash away PS: 3 frames against lowest lasers.
High lasers that aim for your head in a standing position cannot be PS’d. You can dash/run/crouch/dtilt/whatever under them though, so they really aren’t a threat.


I like to have rumble on so if my eyes lose track, I have feedback on what might be happening. If you are thinking of reacting to your rumble and SDI, that’s too few frames to react in time. It does work for meteor smashes, though. Athough I don’t think there’s any advantage to visually checking for downward momentum of your character.

I don’t know of any such articles, but I’m interested as well.

word, really interesting. gotta play with dash away PS.
do those numbers change for "medium" (not super low but also not so high you cannot PS) lasers?

also how do runs interplay with this? I feel like I have an easier time PS'ing lasers from a run towards. is this placebo?

 

[Bones0]

Is the KB angle of attacks ever influenced by the angle of the ground you are standing on? I'm guessing not because of stages like Corneria, but sometimes it seems like Marth dtilts/fsmashes on YS's slant or PS's transformation bumps not only reach lower, but send at a lower angle.

 

[Tee ay eye]

@ Kadano what do you think are the best options from grab near the edge (vs fox, let's say)

i've traditionally loved throwing them into the corner and chasing their techs from there, but i've lately been having trouble vs people who DI in a way to just slide off the ledge and quickly recover from there.

is there a way to punish or prevent people from doing this? or am i better off doing uthrow stuff?

 

[Bones0]

@ Kadano what do you think are the best options from grab near the edge (vs fox, let's say)

i've traditionally loved throwing them into the corner and chasing their techs from there, but i've lately been having trouble vs people who DI in a way to just slide off the ledge and quickly recover from there.

is there a way to punish or prevent people from doing this? or am i better off doing uthrow stuff?

Usually it's a 50-50 based on their DI. If they DI for the slide off, you could have uthrown and they would have DIed off stage (usually; sometimes they can just DI down or even slightly in and still get a slide off). If they DI in assuming you will uthrow, you can fthrow and they'll be forced to tech or depending on their exact DI and %, it can straight combo into dtilt/fsmash.

My main point of focus when deciding between fthrow and uthrow is how effectively can I deal with them DIing uthrow in. If I can still utilt them, then I don't mind at all. If I can uair it isn't terrible, but then you usually have to do a good combo/tech chase onto the top plat and finish them off from there. At higher percents, you can do wonky stuff like FH nair (hitting with the back) just to get them off stage, and I don't mind that much because I'd rather edgeguard most chars than deal with ledge invul. How good they are at getting off the ledge is another thing to consider. If they can't ledgedash and have habits you are comfortable punishing, I'd opt for more fthrows because I'd be confident I could knock them off stage from the ledge. If they are M2K or Hax, throwing them to the ledge almost does nothing for me.

 

[hectohertz]

if sheik grabs marth at 0, and he DIs the dthrow in / neutral, can she combo utilt -> fair -> regrab?
m2k seems to be a fan of this combo, you have to delay the utilt a bit it seems. not sure if it is escapable (i know they could DI away to avoid the utilt, but then you either grab / DA, so that's easy). i'm concerned with whether its escapable after the utilt connects

if this does in fact combo, what percent does this work up until?

 

[Druggedfox]

Fair regrab can't possibly be a true combo, with the number of possible DIs you could do. It's a mixup, but yea...dthrow uptilt -->aerial is super good on marth, and that works for sure

 

[hectohertz]

more questions about sheik punishing marth from a grab:

at what percent range is dthrow -> uair guarenteed if they don't DI away?
and what is the frame leniency for it at various percents (you don't have to do every percent obviously, I have noticed its a very tight link at low %, and im wondering how tight)

 

[crispfish]

whats the optimal huge damage shiek does to marth if she gets a grab for a stage with platforms and then fd
(i know you work platform techchases / shieldgrabbing if they get up)
even tho i dont play shiek i know i shud be able to do the auto combos til 60% or whatever

im trying to switch to either shiek or marth since i observe better with them cuz they arent as fast as fox etc.

 

[hectohertz]

whats the optimal huge damage shiek does to marth if she gets a grab for a stage with platforms and then fd
(i know you work platform techchases / shieldgrabbing if they get up)
even tho i dont play shiek i know i shud be able to do the auto combos til 60% or whatever

im trying to switch to either shiek or marth since i observe better with them cuz they arent as fast as fox etc.

KK has a flowchart here: http://smashboards.com/threads/a-qu...ic-d-throws-combos-under-construction.312070/

 

[SpiderMad]

What's the best way to Mash (out of something like grab)? What's the best way to wiggle out of hitstun (left right as quick as possible on control stick?)? What's the best way to SDI (I've seen people describe pivoting between the corners of the control stick, and others like Ken going from Neutral to a direction and back again with flick motions)?

Do you guys think Mashing could have been a better design? Doesn't going crazy rotational on the control stick to Mash effectively damage the stick?

 

[Bones0]

What's the best way to Mash (out of something like grab)? What's the best way to wiggle out of hitstun (left right as quick as possible on control stick?)? What's the best way to SDI (I've seen people describe pivoting between the corners of the control stick, and others like Ken going from Neutral to a direction and back again with flick motions)?

Do you guys think Mashing could have been a better design? Doesn't going crazy rotational on the control stick to Mash effectively damage the stick?

You only need a single stick input to wiggle out. Next time you survive a KO move and are drifting back towards the stage, release the stick and repress it back in the direction you were drifting. You will straighten immediately.

 

[SpiderMad]

You only need a single stick input to wiggle out. Next time you survive a KO move and are drifting back towards the stage, release the stick and repress it back in the direction you were drifting. You will straighten immediately.

What about out of something like a throw, as soon as hitstun ends i should do a left right left or? and what about mashing and sdi methods

 

[Tee ay eye]

can you catch a turnip when you're in hitstun? tumble? etc

 

[Druggedfox]

You can't catch it while in hitstun I'm fairly sure

You can catch it during tumble and special fall, though.

 

[Tee ay eye]

tyvm druggedbro

 

[Bones0]

What about out of something like a throw, as soon as hitstun ends i should do a left right left or? and what about mashing and sdi methods

Like I said, you only need to press it once. I usually do a quick left-right just to make sure I get the earliest possible wiggle out.

As far as mashing goes, I just press A, X, Y, Z, L, rotate stick. I'm sure I could optimize it further, but I only really go for mash outs when I'm about to get wobbled by ICs or when they pummel, and pummeling adds so much extra time to mash that it seems pretty easy to break out at most percents. One thing that I'm curious about is if you can prevent people from breaking out by throwing immediately. When I played M2K I would mash at low percents when he pummeled, but I still couldn't break out. Maybe I was just reacting to the grabs later than normal though.

For SDI, I vary my method depending on the situation. If I'm about to get hit by a KO move, I'm usually going for quarter circle so I press left/right and roll the stick to up. Sometimes when I have a lot of time to prepare I will hold the stick left/right and physically move the rest of my controller up and down. I saw a demonstration video of it from a 64 player, and they have to SDI all the time, apparently. lol

 

[hectohertz]

did kadano die

im scared

 

[Kadano]

No, but I’m a bit busy with real life stuff right now. I have some response drafts to the posts and private messages I’ve received in the last few days, but I don’t want to post half-hearted replies where I only answer half the questions or don’t test for sufficient accuracy.

 

[AustinRC]

I have a question. Is it possible for Marth to truly sweet spot the edge with his up B? Is there anyway you might be able to look into this for me Kadano? Whenever time permits that is. Maybe this is a stupid question but I've been getting hit out of almost ALL my up B's lately. Maybe I just suck at sweet spotting lol.

 

[Bones0]

I have a question. Is it possible for Marth to truly sweet spot the edge with his up B? Is there anyway you might be able to look into this for me Kadano? Whenever time permits that is. Maybe this is a stupid question but I've been getting hit out of almost ALL my up B's lately. Maybe I just suck at sweet spotting lol.

What attack are you getting hit by? I don't think Marth can truly sweetspot under most attacks used for edgeguarding, but you can make it really freakin' hard by getting the max horizontal and vertical sweetspot and/or curling your up-B to hit them.

 

[hectohertz]

No, but I’m a bit busy with real life stuff right now. I have some response drafts to the posts and private messages I’ve received in the last few days, but I don’t want to post half-hearted replies where I only answer half the questions or don’t test for sufficient accuracy.

no worries man, we all appreciate what you do. real life comes up from time to time

 

[net1234]

2 questions: does marth's ledge hop shield breaker have to be frame perfect?
also is it actually useful?

 

[AustinRC]

Woe sorry super delayed. I keep getting hit by foxs' shine.