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K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: PM BKupa666 for an Invite to the New K. Rool Thread

Rattle-Kalimba

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Guys, would you like to see a DK RPG in the style of the Mario & Luigi RPGs form Alpha Dream only this time with DK-Characters? This could be actually a way to bring KKR and the Kremlings back on track. Sometimes I think that Nintendo hates the Kremlings just because they where created buy western people. After hearing how Sega of Japan and other japanese companies treated their western employees. This actually could be quit a possibility.
 
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If Nintendo hated K.Rool and the Kremlings, then...
  • Why did K.Rool get to be in Mario Super Sluggers?
  • Why do Kritters play goalie in Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged?
  • Why do they also appear playable in Donkey Kong Barrel Blast?
It seems more like they want to use more original ideas than some desire to rid of the Kremlings and K.Rool.
 

JaidynReiman

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Guys, would you like to see a DK RPG in the style of the Mario & Luigi RPGs form Alpha Dream only this time with DK-Characters? This could be actually a way to bring KKR and the Kremlings back on track. Sometimes I think that Nintendo hates the Kremlings just because they where created buy western people. After hearing how Sega of Japan and other japanese companies treated their western employees. This actually could be quit a possibility.
Every DK character besides DK himself was created by western people. Well, that and the one-off Jungle Beat villains. And arguably Pauline, but she's really more of a Mario character.


If Nintendo hated K.Rool and the Kremlings, then...
  • Why did K.Rool get to be in Mario Super Sluggers?
  • Why do Kritters play goalie in Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged?
  • Why do they also appear playable in Donkey Kong Barrel Blast?
It seems more like they want to use more original ideas than some desire to rid of the Kremlings and K.Rool.
And Kritters appearing in Smash.


But really, there is an argument against this notion slightly, that being the fact that the Kremlings have always been quite original, and the fact that Mario's enemies are almost always the same enemies, with some only appearing in certain games. Bowser doesn't change the themes of his enemies from game-to-game, they mostly stay the same.


They probably just wanted to try something different. I wouldn't say they wanted to use more "original" ideas, because the Kremlings tend to always be quite original. They just didn't want to jump back into DKC again and use the Kremlings right away but wait a bit before bringing them back. Fans hated the Tikis, so they created a new original villain to prove that they could make a decent villain. Now the consensus is "Snomads are alright, but I want the Kremlings back." For the most part, anyway.



The main problem with the Snomads is they are restricted to a specific niche. Since they're entirely viking snow-based enemies, that largely restricts what they can do with them. The Kremlings have already proven to be extremely flexible and can fit into numerous situations.
 

BowserK.Rool

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Regarding K. Rool's voice in smash, if he is going to use an animal voice, why not just use crocodile sounds? That's basically what he is afterall and some the sounds I've listened to of them on youtube sound a lot like his "UNGH!" grunts from DKC1 and DC2.
 

CannonStreak

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And Kritters appearing in Smash.


But really, there is an argument against this notion slightly, that being the fact that the Kremlings have always been quite original, and the fact that Mario's enemies are almost always the same enemies, with some only appearing in certain games. Bowser doesn't change the themes of his enemies from game-to-game, they mostly stay the same.


They probably just wanted to try something different. I wouldn't say they wanted to use more "original" ideas, because the Kremlings tend to always be quite original. They just didn't want to jump back into DKC again and use the Kremlings right away but wait a bit before bringing them back. Fans hated the Tikis, so they created a new original villain to prove that they could make a decent villain. Now the consensus is "Snomads are alright, but I want the Kremlings back." For the most part, anyway.



The main problem with the Snomads is they are restricted to a specific niche. Since they're entirely viking snow-based enemies, that largely restricts what they can do with them. The Kremlings have already proven to be extremely flexible and can fit into numerous situations.
That is interesting, Jaidyn. (BTW, I know you go to Sonic Stadium Message Boards, but that's irrelevant) Well, if Retro does make a new DKC game, I really hope they bring back the Kremlings, and if they don't, I will really be ticked off.
 

BlitznBurst

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I don't think Nintendo hates the Kremlings, I think Sakurai just considers DK "unimportant" for some stupid reason
 
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TheAnvil

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I don't think Nintendo hates the Kremlings, I think Sakurai just considers DK "unimportant" for some stupid reason
Sakurai just doesn't seem to be a DK fan. When all's said and done, he puts priority on what he likes above everything else. Shulk, Palutena, Robin were all added because of bias.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, anyone would be bias with that power, Sakurai just takes it too far, and is too ready to ignore people.
 

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Sakurai just doesn't seem to be a DK fan. When all's said and done, he puts priority on what he likes above everything else. Shulk, Palutena, Robin were all added because of bias.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, anyone would be bias with that power, Sakurai just takes it too far, and is too ready to ignore people.
I wouldn't say its all bias. A long-running franchise had the best-selling game ever that sold well. It was only natural we'd get a game from it. Xenoblade was a fairly popular game overall and was getting a sequel. Uprising was quite successful, and Palutena was the only character other than Pit to appear in all Kid Icarus games. (She even cameo'd in Brawl.)


Those character choices weren't bad. Palutena's moveset ending up SUCKING, but she wasn't a bad choice. Bias resulted in Dark Pit and half the enemies in Smash Run being Kid Icarus enemies, though.
 

LIQUID12A

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I don't think Nintendo hates the Kremlings, I think Sakurai just considers DK "unimportant" for some stupid reason
It's hard to tell what Sakurai would consider important bar any bias.

Star Fox and Earthbound were probably unimportant since they traded a character for a new stage. (Orbital Gate for the former, Magicant for the latter)

DK only got a stage; unimportant.

Metroid got two AT's and perhaps the most controversial stage during speculation periods due to Ridley. Metroid is actually questionable in importance to Sakurai, but since there was no newcomer yet a decent amount of content, it's hard to tell.

Who knows.
 

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It's hard to tell what Sakurai would consider important bar any bias.

Star Fox and Earthbound were probably unimportant since they traded a character for a new stage. (Orbital Gate for the former, Magicant for the latter)

DK only got a stage; unimportant.

Metroid got two AT's and perhaps the most controversial stage during speculation periods due to Ridley. Metroid is actually questionable in importance to Sakurai, but since there was no newcomer yet a decent amount of content, it's hard to tell.

Who knows.
Star Fox and Earthbound didn't trade a character for a new stage. They would've gotten a new stage no matter what, all they did was lose.


DK only got one new stage, but its also the only franchise to get a returning stage that wasn't in Brawl. That's not so incredibly significant, but it is a note.
 

BKupa666

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Of note, people are often too quick to make the jump between "Sakurai doesn't care about DK" to "he hates it." Not true, because as badly as the series has it relative to its importance as a Nintendo franchise, it could have it much worse as well.

In all likelihood, the extent of Sakurai's caring probably began and and ended with "What can be copied over from Returns?" Had Returns featured K. Rool and/or Dixie, one or both might have been included. Because they weren't, conscious effort would've been needed, either to research games featuring K. Rool or to phone Retro and care at all about their future plans. Conscious effort that Sakurai and co. preferred to invest elsewhere, into the series they actively like.

Two possible counterarguments I see both ways are the Kritters and Rambi/Cranky/Squawks/Tiki Priests. One could argue that the Kritters wouldn't have been added if someone didn't care about representing classic DKC, but could also say that someone clearly has a problem with DKC to not give it a single AT, despite so many options being in Returns alone, let alone the classics.
 
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JaidynReiman

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Of note, people are often too quick to make the jump between "Sakurai doesn't care about DK" to "he hates it." Not true, because as badly as the series has it relative to its importance as a Nintendo franchise, it could have it much worse as well.

In all likelihood, the extent of Sakurai's caring probably began and and ended with "What can be copied over from Returns?" Had Returns featured K. Rool and/or Dixie, one or both might have been included. Because they weren't, conscious effort would've been needed, either to research games featuring K. Rool or to phone Retro and care at all about their future plans. Conscious effort that Sakurai and co. preferred to invest elsewhere, into the series they actively like.

Two possible counterarguments I see both ways are the Kritters and Rambi/Cranky/Squawks/Tiki Priests. One could argue that the Kritters wouldn't have been added if someone didn't care about representing classic DKC, but could also say that someone clearly has a problem with DKC to not give it a single AT, despite so many options being in Returns alone, let alone the classics.
I'd have to go with the "What can be copied over from Returns?" aspect. They probably didn't bother contacting Retro to find out about TF when they first started, and were only interested in things in Returns. Then later on they added a few things from TF once it was finally announced, but it was too late to add Dixie Kong.


They probably didn't see anything in Returns they were interested in to be an Assist Trophy.
 

AEMehr

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Star Fox and Earthbound were probably unimportant since they traded a character for a new stage. (Orbital Gate for the former, Magicant for the latter)
Earthbound got two enemies in Smash Run and a new Assist Trophy, though it is own of the Smash Run enemies.
DK only got a stage; unimportant.
The three Smash Run enemies isn't too bad, despite two of them being color swaps with a different attack.
Metroid got two AT's and perhaps the most controversial stage during speculation periods due to Ridley. Metroid is actually questionable in importance to Sakurai, but since there was no newcomer yet a decent amount of content, it's hard to tell.
Got four Smash Run enemies too.
- - - - - - -
It's probably been mentioned before, but I think Donkey Kong is kinda stuck being applied with Mario when it comes to the cast. Mario got two new characters this game, with Dr. Mario returning. Which boosts the Super Mario franchise alone to seven characters, add the spinoffs + Donkey Kong and you have eleven Mario universe characters. It's a little much when you think from that perspective right?

And what BKupa says is also very true, had Sakurai been given more information of Tropical Freeze's development Dixie might have been a serious contender for the game. So in reality, it's really just a circumstance of poor timing and a lack of communication.
 

JaidynReiman

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Earthbound got two enemies in Smash Run and a new Assist Trophy, though it is own of the Smash Run enemies.
The three Smash Run enemies isn't too bad, despite two of them being color swaps with a different attack.
Got four Smash Run enemies too.
- - - - - - -
It's probably been mentioned before, but I think Donkey Kong is kinda stuck being applied with Mario when it comes to the cast. Mario got two new characters this game, with Dr. Mario returning. Which boosts the Super Mario franchise alone to seven characters, add the spinoffs + Donkey Kong and you have eleven Mario universe characters. It's a little much when you think from that perspective right?

And what BKupa says is also very true, had Sakurai been given more information of Tropical Freeze's development Dixie might have been a serious contender for the game. So in reality, it's really just a circumstance of poor timing and a lack of communication.
I don't think Mario has to do with anything. DK is generally established as its own franchise. There's no WarioWare or Yoshi enemies, are there?
 

BowserK.Rool

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I don't think Mario has to do with anything. DK is generally established as its own franchise. There's no WarioWare or Yoshi enemies, are there?
Unless you count shy guys as Yoshi's enemies which were in smash run and on Yoshi's stage for the 3-DS version.
 

Wintropy

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To be fair to Sakurai, if he isn't actively a fan of the games, I can see how he'd be likely to overlook it. I tended to disregard the series as being "just a bunch of animals and jungles" before I really got into it, and while I know my perspective isn't indicative of the universal opinion, it's still worth considering that the series is stereotyped in a certain manner and it's possibly that Sakurai only perceives of the series based on those stereotypes.

Play through the first few levels of any of the games and what do you see? Jungles, pirate ships, lakes and...well, snowy jungles. Not much to write home about. In my ignorance, and presumably in Sakurai's too, I thought that was pretty much the extent of the series. Animals and natural scenery, with some cartoony graphics and colourful critters here and there. It's similar to how Metroid is stereotyped as being dreary and full of lava, and from a passing glance, it does seem kind of like that. Sakurai did say recently that he's too busy to play through as many games as he'd like to, it's quite likely that he just gets a vague outline of a game's style through quick research and therefore misses out on the true diversity of the series.
 

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Unless you count shy guys as Yoshi's enemies which were in smash run and on Yoshi's stage for the 3-DS version.
Shy Guys are general Mario spinoff enemies. Yoshi entirely shares enemies with Mario games in general. Shy Guys appear in all kinds of Mario games not featuring Yoshi whatsoever. They just never appear in "main" Mario games. Shy Guys appearing in Yoshi games honestly just cements Yoshi's role as a Mario spinoff.


The Wario Land games also have more similarities to Mario platformers overall, in fact, the original Wario Land games continued from Super Mario Land as I recall. WarioWare has helped differentiate Wario more, but Wario is still more closely associated with Mario than DK is.


To be fair to Sakurai, if he isn't actively a fan of the games, I can see how he'd be likely to overlook it. I tended to disregard the series as being "just a bunch of animals and jungles" before I really got into it, and while I know my perspective isn't indicative of the universal opinion, it's still worth considering that the series is stereotyped in a certain manner and it's possibly that Sakurai only perceives of the series based on those stereotypes.

Play through the first few levels of any of the games and what do you see? Jungles, pirate ships, lakes and...well, snowy jungles. Not much to write home about. In my ignorance, and presumably in Sakurai's too, I thought that was pretty much the extent of the series. Animals and natural scenery, with some cartoony graphics and colourful critters here and there. It's similar to how Metroid is stereotyped as being dreary and full of lava, and from a passing glance, it does seem kind of like that. Sakurai did say recently that he's too busy to play through as many games as he'd like to, it's quite likely that he just gets a vague outline of a game's style through quick research and therefore misses out on the true diversity of the series.
I'm not really aware of any DK game where there's a snowy jungle towards the beginning of a game. The only real snowy jungle I'm aware of in general is TF's Homecoming Hijinxs. There is a snowy forest late in DKC, admittedly.


Otherwise, there's often snowy mountains and ice caves. DKC2 is the only main DK game not to have factory stages (and Flying Kroc fits that niche), while DKCR is the only main DK game not to have a snow stage. Even the pegboard games have snow/factory stages. (Dunno about Jungle Beat or Barrel Blast.)
 
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BKupa666

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I guess you could say I don't have a ton of sympathy for anyone who's given the reigns to a Nintendo crossover and doesn't invest time (or having his team invest time) into each series to showcase what their fans love about them.

This ties into the possible "DK is a Mario spinoff" rationale for DK's content malnourishment. Anyone who played beyond a level of DKC would understand the many differences between it and Mario, instead of looking at it as "Mario, but in jungles and starring that guy from Mario spin-offs."

And to be fair, maybe the team does recognize this, but the sentiment is still certainly out there among fans, especially given how much flak Tropical Freeze got from people whining about "more platformers."
 
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Wintropy

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I'm not really aware of any DK game where there's a snowy jungle towards the beginning of a game. The only real snowy jungle I'm aware of in general is TF's Homecoming Hijinxs. There is a snowy forest late in DKC, admittedly.
That's what I was referring to, yes.

I guess you could say I don't have a ton of sympathy for anyone who's given the reigns to a Nintendo crossover and doesn't invest time (or having his team invest time) into each series to showcase what their fans love about them.

This ties into the possible "DK is a Mario spinoff" rationale for DK's content malnourishment. Anyone who played beyond a level of DKC would understand the many differences between it and Mario, instead of looking at it as "Mario, but in jungles and starring that guy from Mario spin-offs."

And to be fair, maybe the team does recognize this, but the sentiment is still certainly out there among fans, especially given how much flak Tropical Freeze got from people whining about "more platformers."
Yeah, I'm sure it'd be a different ball game entirely if he had the wherewithal to invest proper time and effort into discovering just what makes the series so diverse. I'm sure it doesn't help that the series only recently got a revival, having been flotsamed in the doldrums for the longest time before that. I'd say we're in a pretty strong position going forward, though. DK's going from strength to strength and the future can only get better for our simian Smashers~
 

BKupa666

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DK's going from strength to strength and the future can only get better for our simian Smashers~
Thank goodness. . .whatever new DK games come out in the next few years certainly aren't going to be as barebones as Returns was; odds are, they'll follow Tropical Freeze's formula and, unlike it, come out early enough that whether they get content in the game doesn't depend on the director's willingness to make a phone call (if Sakurai returns; it's anybody's guess with a new guy).

That does remind me of something I brought up in Skype the other day, though. . .after a potential DKCR3 with Tropical Freeze-caliber settings, we might get a 3D DK, featuring more basic archetypes. Archetypes like a jungle first world. I think the math does itself there in terms of future stages, unfortunately.
 
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Dre89

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Poor Returns, everyone has forgotten about it now that TF is out. In some ways I like Returns better due to DKC1 throwbacks and the lack of water (I hate the underwater mechanics in TF). I also like that I can justify using Diddy in Returns. But I still like the originals more, despite only playing them for the first time in 2012.

I always had trouble understanding why I didn't enjoy the new games as much as the originals despite acknowledging that they're amazing games. Then I realised it was because the controls and the physics aren't as tight. The Kongs are too slippery in the new games for my liking.
 
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BowserK.Rool

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Just made this as a joke to my comment a few pages back or so regarding the whole rivalry with DK and K. Rool. Let's just say, Fredrik now knows how our King feels about them.
freddy&k.rool.png
 

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Of note, people are often too quick to make the jump between "Sakurai doesn't care about DK" to "he hates it." Not true, because as badly as the series has it relative to its importance as a Nintendo franchise, it could have it much worse as well.

In all likelihood, the extent of Sakurai's caring probably began and and ended with "What can be copied over from Returns?" Had Returns featured K. Rool and/or Dixie, one or both might have been included. Because they weren't, conscious effort would've been needed, either to research games featuring K. Rool or to phone Retro and care at all about their future plans. Conscious effort that Sakurai and co. preferred to invest elsewhere, into the series they actively like.

Two possible counterarguments I see both ways are the Kritters and Rambi/Cranky/Squawks/Tiki Priests. One could argue that the Kritters wouldn't have been added if someone didn't care about representing classic DKC, but could also say that someone clearly has a problem with DKC to not give it a single AT, despite so many options being in Returns alone, let alone the classics.
Yup. There's a big difference between animosity and apathy. Sakurai just don't care, yo. He probably played the first level of Donkey Kong Country Returns, said "this is enough" to his colleagues, and worked with what he saw. To him, DK and Diddy are just more Mario characters. On the other hand, there's an argument to be made that Sakurai legitimately dislikes the Wario Land series. I'm genuinely surprised that the lone music track from Shake It! wasn't renamed to "Wario's Victory Theme Extended" or something.
 
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Yup. There's a big difference between animosity and apathy. Sakurai just don't care, yo. He probably played the first level of Donkey Kong Country Returns, said "this is enough" to his colleagues, and worked with what he saw. To him, DK and Diddy are just more Mario characters. On the other hand, there's an argument to be made that Sakurai legitimately dislikes the Wario Land series. I'm genuinely surprised that the lone music track from Shake It! wasn't renamed to "Wario's Victory Theme Extended" or something.
he has said he wasn't interested in wario until ware, so if there is any series he really doesn't like, its wario land
 

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Sakurai said that Wario could have been a clone in Melee, but thought against it because he thought he "deserved better" (god knows why when we had bloody FalconDorf of all things.) This was before WarioWare was a thing, so he had to have been referring to Wario Land. That doesn't sound like someone who hates Wario Land... Maybe he just likes WarioWare more?

But why are we talking about Wario in the K. Rool thread?

I think the main factor for K. Rool is ultimately his lack of recent appearances. No, not because of "muh relevancy," but because Sakurai makes it a point to talk to the current developers of a franchise, and Retro only recently seems to be jumping on the Kremling train. I can't see him not taking interest in the DK franchise, when Diddy Kong was so accurately portrayed, and he even originally wanted to do a tag team mechanic true to the classic trilogy. Sure we have like, 50 remixes of one song, but Sakurai isn't the game's composer, hasn't he said that he pretty much gives them free reign for the most part? I imagine the lot of them just wanted to try their hands at the classic DK theme and just never had contact with the other composers to know that they were doing the same song... As for the stages, well, not many franchises besides Mario get really unique stages, and DK's jungle is the definitive locale from the franchise. Hell, Metroid just gets lava stages, Fire Emblem got generic locations, Pokemon had two stadiums and Pokefloats of all things, Sonic has a new stage that's still just a Green Hill Expy, Star Fox is Star Fox. Lack of Assist Trophies? Sure, but don't the vast majority of us turn items off anyway? The only real crime is that Gogoat should have been Rambi. We got Kremlings in Smash Run at least, right? We can't just blame Sakurai for everything, the guy tries.

I was not expecting to type a wall, sorry about that.
 

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Sakurai said that Wario could have been a clone in Melee, but thought against it because he thought he "deserved better" (god knows why when we had bloody FalconDorf of all things.) This was before WarioWare was a thing, so he had to have been referring to Wario Land. That doesn't sound like someone who hates Wario Land... Maybe he just likes WarioWare more?

But why are we talking about Wario in the K. Rool thread?

I think the main factor for K. Rool is ultimately his lack of recent appearances. No, not because of "muh relevancy," but because Sakurai makes it a point to talk to the current developers of a franchise, and Retro only recently seems to be jumping on the Kremling train. I can't see him not taking interest in the DK franchise, when Diddy Kong was so accurately portrayed, and he even originally wanted to do a tag team mechanic true to the classic trilogy. Sure we have like, 50 remixes of one song, but Sakurai isn't the game's composer, hasn't he said that he pretty much gives them free reign for the most part? I imagine the lot of them just wanted to try their hands at the classic DK theme and just never had contact with the other composers to know that they were doing the same song... As for the stages, well, not many franchises besides Mario get really unique stages, and DK's jungle is the definitive locale from the franchise. Hell, Metroid just gets lava stages, Fire Emblem got generic locations, Pokemon had two stadiums and Pokefloats of all things, Sonic has a new stage that's still just a Green Hill Expy, Star Fox is Star Fox. Lack of Assist Trophies? Sure, but don't the vast majority of us turn items off anyway? The only real crime is that Gogoat should have been Rambi. We got Kremlings in Smash Run at least, right? We can't just blame Sakurai for everything, the guy tries.

I was not expecting to type a wall, sorry about that.
No one is saying that DK got no rep at all. The complaint is that the amount of rep is small relative to the size and significance of the franchise, especially considering that much smaller franchises got a lot more rep than DK. It's pretty clear that Sakurai biases franchises he personally likes more. The three franchises that everyone is saying have been over-repped relative to their size are Kirby, KI and FE (admittedly Kirby got overrepped moreso in Brawl than 4). All three of those franchises are known to be personally liked by Sakurai, and 2 of them he has had involvement in. The franchises that have been under-repped relative to their size, such as DK, seem to not be personaly favourites of Sakurai. You can tell Sakurai hasn't played DK much by the fact we keep getting jungle stages and remixes of the same song. It's as if he has never played past Kongo Jungle.

It's the quality of the rep that is also drawing complaints. For example:
-We didn't get a new character when smaller franchises did
-No ATs
-8 remixes of the same song, and many of the other songs not being reflective of the iconic ambient style of DK music
-Smash Run has aerial cannons that function exactly like barrels, but he decided to not make them barrels
-Gives a mine cart stage to his own franchise rather than the one with iconic mine cart levels

If Sakurai didn't have time to do every franchise justice, he should have prioritised the larger, more iconic franchises instead of the ones he personally prefers
 

FalKoopa

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I don't think Kirby has been over-represented in any game. I think the decision to not remix Kirby songs in the 3DS version was atrocious. A case can be made for FE and Kid Icarus which could have done without the clones. For a series with 13 games going all the way back to the NES, I'd say 3 characters are appropriate.

If only Tropical Freeze had come earlier to get more content in Smash 4, we probably could have seen more of David Wise's Style, as well maybe Dixie, following the hype, given Smash's tendency to focus on recent content for most series. I don't think we'll see a lot of DK ATs until Retro properly revives them.

Sakurai's bias became rather blatant in Smash 4 to be honest (Dark Pit, very few references to modern Kirby) so I hope it gets compensated through DLC or in the next instalment. We have to pin our hopes on Retro. If Retro endorses the Kremlings, Sakurai won't be able to ignore them, period.

:231:
 
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No one is saying that DK got no rep at all. The complaint is that the amount of rep is small relative to the size and significance of the franchise, especially considering that much smaller franchises got a lot more rep than DK. It's pretty clear that Sakurai biases franchises he personally likes more. The three franchises that everyone is saying have been over-repped relative to their size are Kirby, KI and FE (admittedly Kirby got overrepped moreso in Brawl than 4). All three of those franchises are known to be personally liked by Sakurai, and 2 of them he has had involvement in. The franchises that have been under-repped relative to their size, such as DK, seem to not be personaly favourites of Sakurai. You can tell Sakurai hasn't played DK much by the fact we keep getting jungle stages and remixes of the same song. It's as if he has never played past Kongo Jungle.

It's the quality of the rep that is also drawing complaints. For example:
-We didn't get a new character when smaller franchises did
-No ATs
-8 remixes of the same song, and many of the other songs not being reflective of the iconic ambient style of DK music
-Smash Run has aerial cannons that function exactly like barrels, but he decided to not make them barrels
-Gives a mine cart stage to his own franchise rather than the one with iconic mine cart levels

If Sakurai didn't have time to do every franchise justice, he should have prioritised the larger, more iconic franchises instead of the ones he personally prefers
i don't think kirby is overrepped, compared to DK it is, but on its own it has the right amount of content it deserves, although stuff from post air ride would be better
 

JamesDNaux

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You can tell Sakurai hasn't played DK much by the fact we keep getting jungle stages and remixes of the same song. It's as if he has never played past Kongo Jungle.
Eerie, almost like how I can tell you didn't read all of my post with the clear mention that Sakurai doesn't chose the music.

No one is saying that DK got no rep at all. The complaint is that the amount of rep is small relative to the size and significance of the franchise, especially considering that much smaller franchises got a lot more rep than DK. It's pretty clear that Sakurai biases franchises he personally likes more.
I also never said anything about DK getting no rep at all, but I digress. We must take into account what developing a game means, let alone a game like Smash. Sakurai has said that he doesn't have time to play every game, and with his declining health, he apparently barely plays games at all anymore. Being as Uprising is a game that he actually made, it's a given that there's going to be content from it, he doesn't have to ask anyone before he does anything, he can just do it. The same with Kirby, and the biggest reason that most of the Kirby stuff is from older games that he actually worked on rather than the newer titles. Awakening was also a game that he played, so he had the chance to take aspects from it. It may come off as biased to us, but really, if we hadn't played the DKC games, would we be here arguing for the franchise? He's a single man, a man with a hard job, he doesn't have the time or energy to sit down and play through every single game, so he takes what he can get. Another reason there was so much Uprising content in Smash 3DS was because he had so many assets that he could reuse from the game to ease the workload.

-We didn't get a new character when smaller franchises did
-No ATs
-8 remixes of the same song, and many of the other songs not being reflective of the iconic ambient style of DK music
-Smash Run has aerial cannons that function exactly like barrels, but he decided to not make them barrels
-Gives a mine cart stage to his own franchise rather than the one with iconic mine cart levels
  • As I mentioned in my post, which you quoted despite apparently not reading, Sakurai makes it a point to talk with the current developers of any particular franchise for important aspects. Retro, being a western studio, is inherently harder to make communications with, and as such, Sakurai would have no implications of Tropical Freeze (for Dixie) or any future endeavors (for the King). For Fire Emblem, as stated, he played the game, and has an easier time communicating with IS. For Kid Icarus, again, he made the last game, biased or not, he didn't have to ask anyone before putting Palutena or Dark Pit in the game. Portraying your own characters who you know inside and out is far easier than dealing with someone else's character, you can't just say "oh, this is how this works," you have to ask them various things.
  • Again, as I said in my post, no one even cares about ATs unless it's "oh, Kid Icarus got more items that I'm never going to see than DK! Blasphemy!" The same thing applies, it's easier for him to use his own properties.
  • Again, Sakurai is not a composer and he does not pick the songs. More than one person makes a game.
  • Now this is just completely arbitrary.
  • I'd be reiterating the same points by now.
If Sakurai didn't have time to do every franchise justice, he should have prioritised the larger, more iconic franchises instead of the ones he personally prefers
"Have you ever made a game?"
Sakurai's bias became rather blatant in Smash 4 to be honest (Dark Pit, very few references to modern Kirby) so I hope it gets compensated through DLC or in the next instalment.
Using your toaster is easier than going to an acquaintance and hoping they'll let you borrow theirs.

Even moreso when that acquaintance doesn't speak your language.

A poor analogy, yes, but it's the best I can do at four in the morning.
 
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Eerie, almost like how I can tell you didn't read all of my post with the clear mention that Sakurai doesn't chose the music.


I also never said anything about DK getting no rep at all, but I digress. We must take into account what developing a game means, let alone a game like Smash. Sakurai has said that he doesn't have time to play every game, and with his declining health, he apparently barely plays games at all anymore. Being as Uprising is a game that he actually made, it's a given that there's going to be content from it, he doesn't have to ask anyone before he does anything, he can just do it. The same with Kirby, and the biggest reason that most of the Kirby stuff is from older games that he actually worked on rather than the newer titles. Awakening was also a game that he played, so he had the chance to take aspects from it. It may come off as biased to us, but really, if we hadn't played the DKC games, would we be here arguing for the franchise? He's a single man, a man with a hard job, he doesn't have the time or energy to sit down and play through every single game, so he takes what he can get. Another reason there was so much Uprising content in Smash 3DS was because he had so many assets that he could reuse from the game to ease the workload.


  • As I mentioned in my post, which you quoted despite apparently not reading, Sakurai makes it a point to talk with the current developers of any particular franchise for important aspects. Retro, being a western studio, is inherently harder to make communications with, and as such, Sakurai would have no implications of Tropical Freeze (for Dixie) or any future endeavors (for the King). For Fire Emblem, as stated, he played the game, and has an easier time communicating with IS. For Kid Icarus, again, he made the last game, biased or not, he didn't have to ask anyone before putting Palutena or Dark Pit in the game. Portraying your own characters who you know inside and out is far easier than dealing with someone else's character, you can't just say "oh, this is how this works," you have to ask them various things.
  • Again, as I said in my post, no one even cares about ATs unless it's "oh, Kid Icarus got more items that I'm never going to see than DK! Blasphemy!" The same thing applies, it's easier for him to use his own properties.
  • Again, Sakurai is not a composer and he does not pick the songs. More than one person makes a game.
  • Now this is just completely arbitrary.
  • I'd be reiterating the same points by now.

"Have you ever made a game?"

Using your toaster is easier than going to an acquaintance and hoping they'll let you borrow theirs.

Even moreso when that acquaintance doesn't speak your language.

A poor analogy, yes, but it's the best I can do at four in the morning.
sakurai is married, his wife makes the menus for smash and i do agree with yourstatement that he can't playevery game but thats why he should get other people whohave played the games pick out what is best for the series or characters, its either that or a new director
 
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JamesDNaux

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Oh how that quote makes me hate Sakurai even more than I already do.
That quote is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I almost feel like going Cranky Kong on it.

It's always been my dream to make video games, and even just being in the planning stages is stressing, I can't even begin to imagine what Sakurai goes through on a daily basis without even considering the "fans" that hate on his every decision.

It's one thing to be stressed about your work, but to have the weight of millions would break a weaker man.
 

TheAnvil

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I wouldn't say its all bias. A long-running franchise had the best-selling game ever that sold well. It was only natural we'd get a game from it. Xenoblade was a fairly popular game overall and was getting a sequel. Uprising was quite successful, and Palutena was the only character other than Pit to appear in all Kid Icarus games. (She even cameo'd in Brawl.)


Those character choices weren't bad. Palutena's moveset ending up SUCKING, but she wasn't a bad choice. Bias resulted in Dark Pit and half the enemies in Smash Run being Kid Icarus enemies, though.
I think you can just about justify any character with one reason or another.

Overall though FE really didn't need another character, and especially no where near as badly as DK (who had a hugely successful revival, Returns alone outsold the entire FE series as a whole).
Star Fox goes down 1, but FE goes up 2? That just reeks of someone who didn't really think things through beyond "I want this, and that". From the way Sakurai worded his interview regarding Robin, he made it seem as if he said "what character from Awakening shall I put in the game". Because he liked the game, he wanted a character from it. Robin's not inherently bad or anything, but there were a ton more characters that should have been prioritised over him.

And as for Palutena, I knew she'd be in but I was at least expecting a moveset that made her worthwhile, she lacks any originality. At the end of the day, she's a secondary character in a tertiary IP. By far the worst, most undeserving character ever included in a Smash game. Dark Pit is easily more forgivable due to the low workload he required.

I'm not knocking Shulk, because I say anyone from a unique IP is welcome, and he's become a favorite of mine. But he's really still only in because Sakurai personally liked Xenoblade. Sometimes his bias is personally benefitting (Duck Hunt Duo, Wolf), sometimes it aint'.

If it'd had been me, I'd have forgotten about Palutena and Robin, and put the dev time on more worthwhile characters, IE K. Rool and Isaac. And I don't even care about Isaac, but at least he'd be a new IP. Frankly, the KI and FE fans would still be getting A new character in theory with Lucina and Dark Pit.
 
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sakurai is married, his wife makes the menus for smash and i do agree with yourstatement that he can't playevery game but thats why he should get other people whohave played the games pick out what is best for the series or characters, its either that or a new director
I'd personally pick a new director because option 1 won't happen. It's Sakurai's way or the High way. If we had option 1 then Shulk would say "Enchant!" instead of "Buster!", Ganondorf would actually have a sword (1 custom is absolutely pathetic) and ranged attacks, Ridley would be a much more accurate portrayal etc.
The only time it hasn't been so is with Bowser Jr still being in the game because the good guys at Namco Bandai (Or whatever it is they call themselves) wanted to keep him (and the Koopalings) in.

I'll let Joe tell you how I feel about how Sakurai did this time.

Trash Tour, still having Falcondorf, discount Angry Birds, broken items (Gust Bellows), the stages (in general) and omissions from the roster as well as the poor excuse of a classic mode against Lucina, Robin and Shulk being playable, removal of random tripping, the music (in general and Sakurai didn't even make them so...) and having fun with friends in a (generally) well balanced game.

Yes I hate Sakurai and want him replaced for the next iteration. No this doesn't stop me from enjoying his game (to an extent).
 

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Yes I hate Sakurai and want him replaced for the next iteration. No this doesn't stop me from enjoying his game (to an extent).
I can understand wanting him replaced.

But hating the man over stuff like this is downright mental. Lighten up.
 
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