Jungle Republic Mafia: To Clarify, the Werewolves Won The Game. Here Marks a New Age in Activity Reform.

[#HBC | Mac]

I get that it's playing to your wincon, but you guys really kinda helped ruin this game. Congrats on the win, but that was lame to watch.

GG everyone else.

don't be so salty haha

 

[Maven89]

So Macs play reminded me of how I played on Bards Revival it Dgames mafia, where I was tunneled a scum and planned to sit on the town cred I got after it was lynched. I just wanted to call attention to the possibility

 

[Lore]

bro you really need to relax with this petty passive aggressive bull**** lmao

We were barely active in our chat, 2-3 messages back and forth each night phase at most. I was actually feeling bad that I wasnt being vocal enough to give rajam an expectation of what I was planning to do se he could adapt to it. Most of the activity came in that last night phase right after I dropped the ball on ending the game with a plurality scam because I felt really bad about throwing that hard

Also at day end for D3 I was arguably the most active player. I was the only one re-reading and actually posting ISO analysis

So yeah dont get it in your head that rajam and I were like 100% active at night phase and deliberately sandbagging in day phase. How the **** do you think we submitted an NK late if we were so active during night phase? Yeah ultimately everyone couldve been more active but it definitely was not just the WWs and our low activity was definitely not some intentional sandbagging like youre trying to make it out to be

Dude this is the third game in a row where you've barely been here, then you decide to talk about how it helped your wincon in your earlier post?

Don't even bother playing in the next one if you're going to do the same crap again. I get it; work sucks and devours time. That just means you have to put on your adult pants and recognize that you shouldn't try to do mafia.

 

[Lore]

don't be so salty haha

Nah I'm salty lol. This is the third game in a row with this crap.

You and me though, we're good. Already said my bit and all is well. GG and wp

 

[Z25]

The biggest problem imo for town was the activity.

With six scum in the game, early phases were pretty dominated by just scum. Rest of it was hit or miss with activity. If town was contributing more we might have been able to form a more cohesive view of the game as a whole

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Dude this is the third game in a row where you've barely been here, then you decide to talk about how it helped your wincon in your earlier post?

Don't even bother playing in the next one if you're going to do the same crap again. I get it; work sucks and devours time. That just means you have to put on your adult pants and recognize that you shouldn't try to do mafia.

I have objectively not been the least active player in any game I've played in and certainly not the least present in terms of substantive contribution so "barely been here" is a pretty loaded way to characterize it but sure my activity has never been stellar. And when I said it helped my wincon, well that's just objectively true. Relative to other slots, scum has no incentive to set the activity barometer any higher than the bare minimum it takes to not get flack for inactivity. That's just basic strategy. It's not like I was deliberately refusing to post, I just didn't go out of my way to spend hours upon hours writing up extra content to spark up a game that I didn't need much to change in to win. Why would I introduce more variance into a winning game state? If my position is good, why waste time and effort changing it to something potentially worse for me?

You can say I shouldn't play mafia all you want, but fwiw you are hardly an objective authority on the topic of what a fair minimum activity floor can and should be, so don't try to act like it. I get your criticism but can see why you specifically probably dont enjoy having me in games, but before trying to suggest malice in my actions you should consider the fact that my activity johns are always consistent regardless of alignment which should be evidence to you that I don't try to actively leverage inactivity to advance my wincon selectively

 

[Rajam]

First; I want to apologize to mods and players for my ***ty play during D1 and D2. Game starts, and my pc dies. Recovered my pc after ~ 5 days. I ALWAYS play taking notes in my pc, regardless of alignment, so posting from phone was a major pain. After recovering my pc I had a lot of pending work from my job, and to make all things worse, I got ill with fever -_-. That was during D2 iirc. Sum to that that I'm a natural slow reader and english isn't my native language, and when it gets to mafia I get stuck on several posts trying to get the most I can from minimum details

That said I really hate when I play catch-up. I'm aware it's super detrimental and anti-town. It's a personal goal to stay current on games; I think, prior to this one, I achieved this goal on my last two games (one in SerenesForest, and one playing under the Unvote hydra, which was just me because my partner left). This game though I had major johns which I hope won't repeat in the future

Regarding the inactivity issue: What about making everyone double voters, with the restriction that both votes can't be on the same player? It would increase pressure, which is a pro-town tool. I also though about a mechanic in which players can steal the vote ability from inactives: When a player becomes officially inactive, the mod makes an announcement telling 'Player A has not posted during the last x hours. Until he posts again or gets replaced, his vote becomes null and available for the first player who claims it'. Definitely not as sad as a modkill, but still punishing

I'm curious about the complaints about the setup, since it's been a well-known setup for a long time. As a mathematician I'm feeling tempted to check the % winning chances of every faction. If I ever do that I'll publish the results here

Need to go now. Shout-outs later!

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I'm curious about the complaints about the setup, since it's been a well-known setup for a long time. As a mathematician I'm feeling tempted to check the % winning chances of every faction. If I ever do that I'll publish the results here

i would love to see this. would be great if Town Seer results are also accounted for in your analysis

i really think Town just got super unlucky with that d1 lynch, if we had 1-2 seer results going into d3, WW would have had a much harder time in this game.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Regarding the inactivity issue: What about making everyone double voters, with the restriction that both votes can't be on the same player? It would increase pressure, which is a pro-town tool. I also though about a mechanic in which players can steal the vote ability from inactives: When a player becomes officially inactive, the mod makes an announcement telling 'Player A has not posted during the last x hours. Until he posts again or gets replaced, his vote becomes null and available for the first player who claims it'. Definitely not as sad as a modkill, but still punishing

interesting idea but im concerned that the ppl who got their votes stolen would get demotivated. losing your vote is pretty unfun

 

[Pythag]

interesting idea but im concerned that the ppl who got their votes stolen would get demotivated. losing your vote is pretty unfun

Yeah. inactivity, that’s where the real fun is.

 

[Z25]

First; I want to apologize to mods and players for my ***ty play during D1 and D2. Game starts, and my pc dies. Recovered my pc after ~ 5 days. I ALWAYS play taking notes in my pc, regardless of alignment, so posting from phone was a major pain. After recovering my pc I had a lot of pending work from my job, and to make all things worse, I got ill with fever -_-. That was during D2 iirc. Sum to that that I'm a natural slow reader and english isn't my native language, and when it gets to mafia I get stuck on several posts trying to get the most I can from minimum details

That said I really hate when I play catch-up. I'm aware it's super detrimental and anti-town. It's a personal goal to stay current on games; I think, prior to this one, I achieved this goal on my last two games (one in SerenesForest, and one playing under the Unvote hydra, which was just me because my partner left). This game though I had major johns which I hope won't repeat in the future

Regarding the inactivity issue: What about making everyone double voters, with the restriction that both votes can't be on the same player? It would increase pressure, which is a pro-town tool. I also though about a mechanic in which players can steal the vote ability from inactives: When a player becomes officially inactive, the mod makes an announcement telling 'Player A has not posted during the last x hours. Until he posts again or gets replaced, his vote becomes null and available for the first player who claims it'. Definitely not as sad as a modkill, but still punishing

I'm curious about the complaints about the setup, since it's been a well-known setup for a long time. As a mathematician I'm feeling tempted to check the % winning chances of every faction. If I ever do that I'll publish the results here

Need to go now. Shout-outs later!

interesting idea but im concerned that the ppl who got their votes stolen would get demotivated. losing your vote is pretty unfun

Which is why I actually really like that idea.

It would motivate them to actually play or at least swap out if need be.

 

[Rajam]

interesting idea but im concerned that the ppl who got their votes stolen would get demotivated. losing your vote is pretty unfun

inactive would recover his vote when he gets back

 

[Maven89]

Everyone should just sheep Maven

 

[KevinM]

gg inactivity always plagues these games and that’s cool the problem with this game was that set up meant you can’t lynch out inactives.

Not much you can do lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh well, I still enjoyed this I just need to fix my eternal quest of everyone reading me scummy, but no way to avoid that.

What I said in the GY for town still stands. More or less people sitting on town reads in multi ball and not reevaluating.

I'll be sure to join the next one.

Btw I might host some super small like games with 5 man stuff mac was sharing, I'll see if I can roll with it.

 

[Dooplissity]

I'll pipe in from downtown - I think that Kevin pretty much hit this one.

gg inactivity always plagues these games and that’s cool the problem with this game was that set up meant you can’t lynch out inactives.

Not much you can do lol.

The real issue with this game was that the set-up is super swingy and so scum overloaded that Town doesn't really have wiggle room for lynches, and what happens at night is so overwhelmingly important.
Town lost in large part due to the seer lynch D1. (which is partially Town's own fault for not running pressure up faster for a claim)
Mafia lost due to getting murdered at Night. (thanks multiball),
WW won mostly off everyone else being so far down that they just had to not throw to win, which lead to less than interesting risk-averse play, although I don't blame them one bit, because I'd have done the same.

Dgames in general needs to do a better job of making set-ups that encourage the kind of play we want to see.

 

[Maven89]

Definitely think KevinM played the best, outside of me. However he's a patriot's fan so he should be blacklisted from further games.

Rajam did a real good job of faking reads. I didn't like any of his analysis, but I never thought they were faked.

I'd like to play again with Raxxel, he was new but very earnest in trying to play, and I always enjoy seeing that.

Tom got wrecked like a scrub

 

[Rajam]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame : bro great game for us, did you ever receive a vote? Maybe D1, but I'm 99% sure you got no votes from D2 onwards. Your very first post D1 made everyone town-read you during the whole game, and that speaks for itself regarding your skills man. You were also a great scum partner, because despite your experience you were still willing to listen in the scum chat. Other than low activity and guts/paranoia, it's super hard to justify a vote against you, because you simply don't scumslip or fall into the classic scummy attitudes. I feel the only way to pin you is through power roles gaining information at Nights haha

I'm also with you regarding the activity discussion. Real life johns exist and it's super normal to be absent a full 24-hours day. With that under consideration, 3 to 5 days Day-phases are tight: you miss a day, and you miss like 20% ~ 30%. I do support games without deadlines, that should be a thing here.

#HBC | Mac : In the things to improve, you mentioned that you should've lynched Lore D1, but honestly Brindor was the 100% right lynch that Day. If anything, what you could've done better is bringing Brindor in the spotlight earlier. I think the lesson to learn here is: if you want to lynch an inactive, do it closer to deadline, because it's easier to reach consensus on those kind of players when there is no consensus on someone else, and with time knocking the door, it's unlikely people will shift away from the inactive. On the other hand, if you really want to lynch someone else who is not an inactive, bring the inactives subject to light earlier, so people can discuss that and get done with it earlier, and it won't be a distraction during deadlines.

Other than that you played a great game, best townie by far. You did the job, problem was that no other townie was close to doing the same amount of work you were putting in. I honestly think you have nothing to blame yourself about. You can always tinker small details, but in the big picture, you should keep playing like this when you roll town

#HBC | Red Ryu : What you posted in the Green Room is totally on point; late scumness > early scumness. A player plays a great D1 and/or D2 and gets a pass over people who played terrible in those same Days, and that should not happen. I think people find you scummy because you play sort of a commentator style, putting out your impressions of what's going on, but not doing much work in terms of going back in the thread and dig stuff from the past. Do that, and you'll earn town points regardless of alignment. Btw I felt you were going somewhere with your analysis on Tom's nkill. Should've kept that subject alive

Brindor : Check and learn from this game if you ever decide to play another one. And if you do and play like this again, I'll request your replacement asap

KevinM : Legit thought you were scummy early game. Felt better about your slot after reading the end of D1. Your disconnection with Lore was 100% believable; that's one thing wrong in my notes. By the end I was sure you were town. After Mac's death your situation was unwinnable though: if you acted scummy you were gonna be lynched, and if you acted townie you were gonna be nkilled, and ultimately I picked you as our nkill largely based on your reputation

Lore : Clogged the thread too much with you and Mac exchanging accusations. I honestly felt Mac tried to look somewhere else at moments, but you didn't let it go. You should've also open different discussions' routes, ask questions, etc. and let the thread breathe a bit. I'm not saying you should've stopped posting, but instead you should've looked elsewhere and scumhunt somewhere else, specially in a game with 5 known scum. At the end, my impression is all you did was focus on gaining the upper hand against Mac, and charging against inactives

Maven89 : Sorry but you were an easy scapegoat :B Back in the day when you joined DGames you were quite the hyperactive player, why the shift? This game I legit thought you were scummy and that you were the 3rd mafioso. During the last Days you were on track about me/frozen being scum, but even so I wasn't concerned because you were being overall lazy when it came to make people join you. Definitely something to improve

Pythag : I felt you improved as game advanced. You managed pretty well the 'scumslip' I found, like, you reacted as a true townie. You began to check things, ask questions, and doing job. At the very end I had trouble in keep pressuring your slot

Raxxel : If you stick around you definitely have potential to grow a ton. You'll probably become more conservative about your vote considering what happened last Day, and also because people were mad at you for the early hammer D2, but honestly I would like that you keep the aggression: if scum knows you don't have issues hammering early, you'll be a threat to them; you'll provoke reactions like crazy. I recommend that you play keeping some notes, and once games finish, check your own notes and learn from them.

Tom : Didn't really play together, both of us barely interacted and did anything D1 ._.

Z25 : Need to work how you react to pressure, it's like you focus on your defense and ignore everything else. That's super easy to push as scum. You also seem to focus a lot on actions more than intentions, for example, you suspected me and Raxxel because of the hammers D1 and D2. That same mentality makes you be very conservative with your vote, but that's actually not a pro-town thing. Your vote is your tool to pressure people, specially early game. Don't be afraid to use it even if you lack strong reasoning; votes provoke reactions, which lead to more reactions, and so on; you trigger snowball effects

Also, question: Is english your native language? There were moments in which I was thinking you're not a native english speaker. Saw some posts in which you wrote 'weather' instead of 'whether' and stuff like that. It would explain why it was easy for me and some other players to push your slot

UtopianPoyzin : thanks for hosting, and again i apologize for not being as active as I should've been (tbh i didn't notice the duration of Day and Night phases until both D1 and N1 ended). If you host another game and want me in, feel free to let me know

 

[Z25]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame : bro great game for us, did you ever receive a vote? Maybe D1, but I'm 99% sure you got no votes from D2 onwards. Your very first post D1 made everyone town-read you during the whole game, and that speaks for itself regarding your skills man. You were also a great scum partner, because despite your experience you were still willing to listen in the scum chat. Other than low activity and guts/paranoia, it's super hard to justify a vote against you, because you simply don't scumslip or fall into the classic scummy attitudes. I feel the only way to pin you is through power roles gaining information at Nights haha

I'm also with you regarding the activity discussion. Real life johns exist and it's super normal to be absent a full 24-hours day. With that under consideration, 3 to 5 days Day-phases are tight: you miss a day, and you miss like 20% ~ 30%. I do support games without deadlines, that should be a thing here.

#HBC | Mac : In the things to improve, you mentioned that you should've lynched Lore D1, but honestly Brindor was the 100% right lynch that Day. If anything, what you could've done better is bringing Brindor in the spotlight earlier. I think the lesson to learn here is: if you want to lynch an inactive, do it closer to deadline, because it's easier to reach consensus on those kind of players when there is no consensus on someone else, and with time knocking the door, it's unlikely people will shift away from the inactive. On the other hand, if you really want to lynch someone else who is not an inactive, bring the inactives subject to light earlier, so people can discuss that and get done with it earlier, and it won't be a distraction during deadlines.

Other than that you played a great game, best townie by far. You did the job, problem was that no other townie was close to doing the same amount of work you were putting in. I honestly think you have nothing to blame yourself about. You can always tinker small details, but in the big picture, you should keep playing like this when you roll town

#HBC | Red Ryu : What you posted in the Green Room is totally on point; late scumness > early scumness. A player plays a great D1 and/or D2 and gets a pass over people who played terrible in those same Days, and that should not happen. I think people find you scummy because you play sort of a commentator style, putting out your impressions of what's going on, but not doing much work in terms of going back in the thread and dig stuff from the past. Do that, and you'll earn town points regardless of alignment. Btw I felt you were going somewhere with your analysis on Tom's nkill. Should've kept that subject alive

Brindor : Check and learn from this game if you ever decide to play another one. And if you do and play like this again, I'll request your replacement asap

KevinM : Legit thought you were scummy early game. Felt better about your slot after reading the end of D1. Your disconnection with Lore was 100% believable; that's one thing wrong in my notes. By the end I was sure you were town. After Mac's death your situation was unwinnable though: if you acted scummy you were gonna be lynched, and if you acted townie you were gonna be nkilled, and ultimately I picked you as our nkill largely based on your reputation

Lore : Clogged the thread too much with you and Mac exchanging accusations. I honestly felt Mac tried to look somewhere else at moments, but you didn't let it go. You should've also open different discussions' routes, ask questions, etc. and let the thread breathe a bit. I'm not saying you should've stopped posting, but instead you should've looked elsewhere and scumhunt somewhere else, specially in a game with 5 known scum. At the end, my impression is all you did was focus on gaining the upper hand against Mac, and charging against inactives

Maven89 : Sorry but you were an easy scapegoat :B Back in the day when you joined DGames you were quite the hyperactive player, why the shift? This game I legit thought you were scummy and that you were the 3rd mafioso. During the last Days you were on track about me/frozen being scum, but even so I wasn't concerned because you were being overall lazy when it came to make people join you. Definitely something to improve

Pythag : I felt you improved as game advanced. You managed pretty well the 'scumslip' I found, like, you reacted as a true townie. You began to check things, ask questions, and doing job. At the very end I had trouble in keep pressuring your slot

Raxxel : If you stick around you definitely have potential to grow a ton. You'll probably become more conservative about your vote considering what happened last Day, and also because people were mad at you for the early hammer D2, but honestly I would like that you keep the aggression: if scum knows you don't have issues hammering early, you'll be a threat to them; you'll provoke reactions like crazy. I recommend that you play keeping some notes, and once games finish, check your own notes and learn from them.

Tom : Didn't really play together, both of us barely interacted and did anything D1 ._.

Z25 : Need to work how you react to pressure, it's like you focus on your defense and ignore everything else. That's super easy to push as scum. You also seem to focus a lot on actions more than intentions, for example, you suspected me and Raxxel because of the hammers D1 and D2. That same mentality makes you be very conservative with your vote, but that's actually not a pro-town thing. Your vote is your tool to pressure people, specially early game. Don't be afraid to use it even if you lack strong reasoning; votes provoke reactions, which lead to more reactions, and so on; you trigger snowball effects

UtopianPoyzin : thanks for hosting, and again i apologize for not being as active as I should've been (tbh i didn't notice the duration of Day and Night phases until both D1 and N1 ended). If you host another game and want me in, feel free to let me know

I suppose that's a good point.

Honestly though for the most part, I don't see responding to a vote with one sentence ( outside of the vote or two I went more in detail against) to be scummy at all. The early game I was treated at scum for responding, not reacting, responding. Which was kinda of dumb ngl. I'll give you that this point is fair for later on but not the beginning imo.

With the earlier phases now I wasn't really here or I probably would have had more to vote for. I had a concussion and had to avoid the computer. Usually I'll stick to a vote regardless of the bus, but it depends. I have been persuaded and lost before because of it though, so I consider my votes a little more carefully.

Regardless, I appreciate the feedback. You played well, I hope you play again soon.

 

[Lore]

I have objectively not been the least active player in any game I've played in and certainly not the least present in terms of substantive contribution so "barely been here" is a pretty loaded way to characterize it but sure my activity has never been stellar. And when I said it helped my wincon, well that's just objectively true. Relative to other slots, scum has no incentive to set the activity barometer any higher than the bare minimum it takes to not get flack for inactivity. That's just basic strategy. It's not like I was deliberately refusing to post, I just didn't go out of my way to spend hours upon hours writing up extra content to spark up a game that I didn't need much to change in to win. Why would I introduce more variance into a winning game state? If my position is good, why waste time and effort changing it to something potentially worse for me?

You can say I shouldn't play mafia all you want, but fwiw you are hardly an objective authority on the topic of what a fair minimum activity floor can and should be, so don't try to act like it. I get your criticism but can see why you specifically probably dont enjoy having me in games, but before trying to suggest malice in my actions you should consider the fact that my activity johns are always consistent regardless of alignment which should be evidence to you that I don't try to actively leverage inactivity to advance my wincon selectively

Lol k.

I'm not attributing malice. I'm saying that if you have three inactive games in a row, maybe think about not signing up for a bit. The "it helped my wincon" bit was extra salt in the wound; I don't think you were inactive out of malice, but the wincon mention was a bit oof.

Rajam Thanks for the explanation at least. I'm still ugh on inactivity, but at least you rocked d3 (or was it d4? I'm sleepy posting).

Minor note: my clogging the thread with Mac D1 was very intentional. D2 was similar, although I did legitimately think Mac was WW at that point. The clogging was meant to mask the other scum players and stifle Town discussion.

I'd say that it worked, but honestly most of that was just Kev's outstanding play. He rocked out this game, and I hate that he got killed lol.

 

[Lore]

Ah misread it. Your critique was aimed at me as a scum player with my strat in mind, not in general.

My bad, thanks for the critique!

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Hey so

I've got my hands a bit tied. I'm going to be trying to start the next game ASAP, but I also want to allow this to have ample time so we can sit here and discuss the activity issue. I will say, my ******* game will have something that'll keep people from being inactive but... i wouldn't advise every host using it.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Minor note: my clogging the thread with Mac D1 was very intentional. D2 was similar, although I did legitimately think Mac was WW at that point. The clogging was meant to mask the other scum players and stifle Town discussion.

I'd say that it worked, but honestly most of that was just Kev's outstanding play. He rocked out this game, and I hate that he got killed lol.

not sure that drawing so much attn to yourself early that your lynch was inevitable, forcing Tom to chainsaw defend you d1 leaving a massive connection between yall, and leaving KevinM alive as the only person in your nightkill-less scum faction going into d3 counts as working

but you do you

 

[Lore]

not sure that drawing so much attn to yourself early that your lynch was inevitable, forcing Tom to chainsaw defend you d1 leaving a massive connection between yall, and leaving KevinM alive as the only person in your nightkill-less scum faction going into d3 counts as working

but you do you

I agree, I just misread his critique unfortunately. I thought he was saying that it wasn't intentional.

 

[ranmaru]

I get that it's playing to your wincon, but you guys really kinda helped ruin this game. Congrats on the win, but that was lame to watch.

If a strategy works, then use it to win. Seems fine to me. Scum have no reason to help the health of the game, that responsibility is up to town. Criticism to town is fine though.

Don't even bother playing in the next one if you're going to do the same crap again.

Yeah we don't do that here. If he posted within prod ranges, seems fine to me. This is me shaming 'don't ever play here again' comments. Life > Mafia.

 

[Lore]

If a strategy works, then use it to win. Seems fine to me. Scum have no reason to help the health of the game, that responsibility is up to town. Criticism to town is fine though.

Yeah we don't do that here. If he posted within prod ranges, seems fine to me. This is me shaming 'don't ever play here again' comments. Life > Mafia.

Sure, sportsmanship isn't a thing. Come on Ran.

As for the second bit, that's the problem. He didn't post within prod ranges. He (and others) got prodded repeatedly. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed back into a game, but if they know they may end up inactive, I'd 100% prefer them to choose to just not play.

 

[giraffelasergun]

Yeah we don't do that here. If he posted within prod ranges, seems fine to me. This is me shaming 'don't ever play here again' comments. Life > Mafia.

I don't think anyone is saying that posting in a mafia game takes priorities over real life stuff, but if you know before hand you can't commit to the activity level the game mod is requesting in the OP, it's probably best if you don't sign up for that specific game.

 

[KevinM]

After Mac's death your situation was unwinnable though:

No after Tom ‘s death the game was unwinnable because you guys went right after my heart and soul and I won’t forgive you for it.

 

[KevinM]

Glad you played again though, just butt frustrated I couldn’t policy lynch your inactive azzzz <3

 

[KevinM]

Definitely think KevinM played the best,

However he's a patriot's fan so he should be blacklisted from further games.

 

[Dooplissity]

If a strategy works, then use it to win. Seems fine to me. Scum have no reason to help the health of the game, that responsibility is up to town. Criticism to town is fine though.



Yeah we don't do that here. If he posted within prod ranges, seems fine to me. This is me shaming 'don't ever play here again' comments. Life > Mafia.

This is correct.

If we have an issue with how little someone can post while staying within the rules, then that's a systemic problem with prod timers vs deadlines and we should fix the system, not blame individual players. This is also true if we have an issue with how many times someone can get prodded and still play.

Telling people to not play here when we already have not enough players isn't okay, and is pretty directly harmful to the community.

 

[Lore]

Telling people to not play here when we already have not enough players isn't okay, and is pretty directly harmful to the community.

I legitimately don't see how it's controversial to say "hey if you don't think you can keep to the deadline commitments, maybe wait to join a game until you can."

Any frustration in my posts earlier came from having to deal with this three f***ing games in a row. This isn't about prod timers or deadlines, this is about players not keeping commitments.

If people want games with way longer deadlines or no deadlines, they are free to make them and host them. Meanwhile quite a few of us enjoy games with strict deadlines. All you need is a bare minimum amount of activity, or at least the common courtesy to pop in and say "hey I'm slammed today, I'm unable to post much if any at all." If you have a smart phone and enough signal, there's zero excuse for not respecting the other players' time (and the hosts') by not at least doing that much. It takes two minutes, max.

 

[Lore]

Don't know why I cut out the rest of that.

This is correct.

If we have an issue with how little someone can post while staying within the rules, then that's a systemic problem with prod timers vs deadlines and we should fix the system, not blame individual players. This is also true if we have an issue with how many times someone can get prodded and still play.

Dude that's not the problem here lol. They didn't even stay within the rules. Prod dodging is one thing (and it's immensely frustrating and needs to be discouraged through votes), but they didn't dodge. They just flat out didn't participate, to the point where one scum team didn't even submit a Night Kill.

 

[Dooplissity]

Don't know why I cut out the rest of that.



Dude that's not the problem here lol. They didn't even stay within the rules. Prod dodging is one thing (and it's immensely frustrating and needs to be discouraged through votes), but they didn't dodge. They just flat out didn't participate, to the point where one scum team didn't even submit a Night Kill.

Then doesn't that fall under "This is also true if we have an issue with how many times someone can get prodded and still play."? That still seems like a systemic issue to me, either that the rules should be changed or enforced more strictly.

I understand your frustration towards the situation, it does feel lame to lose that way. I'm saying that trying to fix the issue by shaming less-than-active players is a bandaid for the real issue, which is that one can play a game to the end without contributing enough. That shouldn't be possible.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't see how lurking as scum is being un-sportsman like. We are friends here, but we also are playing to win. It's perfectly fine. It's like complaining about camping in smash. If it works, use it. Town that are active should be able to weed out inactive scum anyway. You also acknowledge it. I agree that it can be lame at times but it's not something to discourage scum from using, I encourage it. Don't do anything pro-town as scum if you can help it. Otherwise you aren't progressing your win condition as scum.

I will say that I find that this game wasn't the right fit for him, but that we shouldn't discourage him from playing another if it has longer deadlines. That's the important bit here, we are not elitists that blacklist willy nilly, we are a small community here. I would say the same thing if someone said that to you. (Not that you have an activity problem, hypothetical) I do agree with Doop that it's a systematic issue. FrozenFlame certainly picked up his activity a bit in the second game, and put in quite some effort. He died before he could really do much. Here, it's understandable that deadlines were too short.

Really, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be mad that there was inactivity issues, and I want to try to help fix that for you guys. I think it's fine for you to ask for him to improve his activity to the best of his ability, I don't think it's fine to discourage playing. Instead we should try to improve the game so that it's best for most of us. (Which I note others trying out new things which I'm cool with)

 

[Lore]

Then doesn't that fall under "This is also true if we have an issue with how many times someone can get prodded and still play."? That still seems like a systemic issue to me, either that the rules should be changed or enforced more strictly.

I understand your frustration towards the situation, it does feel lame to lose that way. I'm saying that trying to fix the issue by shaming less-than-active players is a bandaid for the real issue, which is that one can play a game to the end without contributing enough. That shouldn't be possible.

I think your view is valid enough, even if I disagree about shaming less than active players. We need to either policy lynch or have stricter punishments. Either way, you have decent points that I can respect.

As for Ran: this argument is dumb between us, especially when you didn't even play the game. I'm not continuing it.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't think I need to play the game to have an opinion on what's good for the community. I've said my piece.

 

[Dooplissity]

I think your view is valid enough, even if I disagree about shaming less than active players. We need to either policy lynch or have stricter punishments. Either way, you have decent points that I can respect.

As for Ran: this argument is dumb between us, especially when you didn't even play the game. I'm not continuing it.

In defense of Ran, I didn't play the game either. I don't know why he didn't, but I can say the reason I didn't play is because I did exactly what you've asked people to do, which is not play a game I can't commit time to because of RL. I hope you don't count my viewpoint as lesser, like you do his, as a result.

You and I can agree to disagree on our opinions regarding activity and how best to remedy issues surrounding it, but I do want to repeat that I'm not alright with anyone shaming someone out of the community for it. This is especially true for people speaking from a place of authority, which you do as a mod (even if you don't mod DGames specifically).

I legitimately don't see how it's controversial to say "hey if you don't think you can keep to the deadline commitments, maybe wait to join a game until you can.".

You didn't say to FF "hey if you don't think you can keep to the deadline commitments, maybe wait to join a game until you can." you said "Don't even bother playing in the next one if you're going to do the same crap again . . . put his adult pants on". Those are very different statements, and regardless of if the former's OK, it's pretty clear the latter isn't.

I hope you take the feedback I (and Ran) gave you as seriously as you want FF to take the feedback you gave him.

 

[Lore]

If you're taking that as "shaming him out of the community," then I still have to disagree. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying there.

Giraffe even stepped in and tried to help clarify what I said. It wasn't meant as blacklisting or anything like that. It was calling out someone who has been repeatedly inactive in three games in a row, saying they shouldn't choose to join in the next one if they will be inactive again.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I don't see how lurking as scum is being un-sportsman like. We are friends here, but we also are playing to win. It's perfectly fine. It's like complaining about camping in smash. If it works, use it. Town that are active should be able to weed out inactive scum anyway. You also acknowledge it. I agree that it can be lame at times but it's not something to discourage scum from using, I encourage it. Don't do anything pro-town as scum if you can help it. Otherwise you aren't progressing your win condition as scum.

i love the lurking == camping metaphor, it's so true. I guess that makes FF the mafia version of Zanguzen