Jigglytuff Move Suggestion Thread

[210stuna]

This thread is for legitimate suggestions on to what you would like to see in future for Jiggs.
Stuff like "Remove her iconic Sing move for a mic thrown up move" is kind of a stretch. Where a suggestion of making a certain move have less cool down, or make a certain smash attack not so punishable is more suitable.

In no way is this thread intended to second guess, or disrespect the PMBR team for everything they've done to revert her back to Melee Jiggs. We (The Jigglypuff group) would just like to see some minor improvements on her game just as the rest of the Melee vets have received as well (for the most part). Maybe not to a point where particularity everyone would "love" to play as her, but something the very few users of her would appreciate when a small buff could go a long way in our gameplay.

As the OP I can't really think of an improvement that could be made in relation to her up B. Not only do other characters have at least one "useless" move, but Sing is one of her iconic moves that makes her Jigglypuff. What else would you base a new animation/move off of, when all her moves come from her body? I don't really watch/play Pokemon to know what kind of attacks she knows, but all I remember from the show way back when it first came out is that she would sing and draw on people's faces when they fell asleep! She's like the Wii Fit Trainer of the original Smash 64, she doesn't represent Pokemon or is super bad *** like Mewtwo was in the series, yet she kicks so much *** if you knew how to play as her.

Her up B "Sing" isn't the only suggestion I've thought of, but it's a start for this thread.

Discuss.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

Does fair still have that sweet spot from brawl? It might be good to add so Jiggs have a reason to use fair over bair

 

[GMaster171]

Fair has sex kick properties, not really a sweetspot (other than the inner hitbox doing 2% more, the KBG and BKB are the same in the first hit). theres an initial hitbox on frame 7-8, then a weaker hit sticking out for another 14 frames.

Bair does the same damage as fairs initial hit, has the same BKB and KBG as the initial hit, is 2 frames slower and doesnt stick out (hitbox is active for 4 frames)

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

But in brawl didn't it have that electric sweetspot? I was thinking they could add that

 

[Sonallvegqu]

About Jigglypuff's Sing, this is just me spitballing here, but I think way how Sing comes out should be different in terms of usage and range. Instead of being a very close-range surrounding move, I like to recommend having Sing be shooting out in a form of musical notes flying forward in a short distance range like the range of Squirtle's Bubble while on the ground. That way Sing won't needlessly be a waste of Special B move.

As of now, it is just virtually unusable and not worth the risk of using Sing in any situations.

 

[Nausicaa]

Having Sing be completely useless is the opposite of the direction the game is going with almost everyone else.
Fitting to the character while being a non-factor in any and all games = NOT something favorable.
All other characters are getting treatment in the other direction, so that would be cool.


Otherwise, what about Jigglypuff needs ACTUAL help? Playing her against all the match-ups in the game, on all stages, what is it that makes her 'need' something at all?
Not a move, but what messes her up? Range? Speed? All of it? What specific parts? Would she best benefit from a new tool, or simply more range/speed/etc?

Even more important, what about Jigglypuff against the PM cast has to change in terms of game-play. She have to be more aggressive against the cast and line-up Rests more, edge-guards more? She need to camp them out and be safer? What makes/breaks her NOW?

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

I find that her problem is characters are killing much faster, more viable characters with longer range, and she has almost no way of coming back.

Project M seems to change every character who has no combos into a captain falcon. Characters like jigglypuff have to play perfectly to avoid 0 - 60% combos, while a well spaced bair only gets you about 10%. Also most characters with terrible specials now have much better ones. So a lot of people who she couls punish, like ike after QuickDraw, can now do whatever cancel into whatever mixup to avoid punishment. Also jigglypuff has no combos. Bair chains only work at lowish percents and then up tilt to rest is dangerous considering she dies so early. At high percents you have to get lucky with a fsmash which unlike Mario's is punishable. Or hope you hit them high enough that up air kill or far enough that bair kills.

In melee, the only character that could challenge her bair was Marth, and maybe Samus. Now you have Ike, a better Roy, a better Mewtwo, a better Link, Ivysaur, Charizard, etc. Who out range her. And iirc her bair was shortened from melee to brawl. So not only can't she combo but also she struggles to do what she does best. Especially now that ivysaur almost outclasses her in every way.

In a game where almost every character plays off momentum, where one combo leads into another then another then finally a kill, jigglyluff lags behind. She needs to search for early rest kills just so she can even up the game. But then, rest is punishable on hit, so you need to mind both your percent and watch for whatever combo starter the opponent might do. Bair doesn't usually kill outright. It knocks them off the stage to where you're supposed to edge guard. Not saying its impossible, but with overall improved recovery unless you have an up-b like captain falcon the edge guard isn't guaranteed.

So all in all I think jigglypuff is a single hit zoning character that's trapped in a game were everyone combos. I'm not saying she should have some of her own, it wouldn't make sense to her character, but she will forever stay low - mod tier of only because of rest. Making her B - moves not complete trash in most situations would be helpful by giving her more ways to kill or ways to setup into rest, but still wouldn't solve the problem. Jigglypuff probably would need more knock back growth on some moves to make her a little bit more dangerous, as well as shorter end lag on aerials ( hopefully for 2sh aerials) so it appears as of she can move faster in the air. It would also help out her wall of pain.

This is just my $.02

 

[Deleted member]

Posted this in the Character Idea Submission thread and figured I'd post it here too to get the opinions of Jigglypuff mains.

This is coming from somebody who does not like how Jigglypuff has been handled in Smash, and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this. Whatever. I'm not posting this to piss off the Jigglypuff mains; I would just like to put my opinion/ideas out there.

Regardless of her effectiveness in Melee, I personally do not think anybody should look at Melee Jigglypuff as an example of good design. She has a boring, uninspired, limited moveset that boxes her into certain roles and leaves little room for creativity. Many of her bad moves could be improved while certain other moves (looking at you, B-air) could be de-emphasized a bit. Her specials especially could use some work in order to make her a more interesting and varied character. I know we're already at version 2.6, and I know many people believe Melee top tiers shouldn't be changed, but I feel like it's never too late to make a better character.

Here are some ideas that I would love to see balanced and worked into her moveset:

Slightly faster running speed.

F-tilt - Very quick. More range (foot stretches out more like Bair).

D-tilt - Very quick. Less damage. Sends them into the air for comboing.

B-air - reduce the size of the disjoint. Still functions as a great WoP move. If it wasn't for "bcuz Melee", the PMBR would not have given this move its current properties. Regardless of how vital the move currently is, the huge disjoint simply does not make sense. She will have to make up for this loss in other areas, which is actually a positive thing imo. Depending so much on one move that doesn''t even make sense visually is proof that she is poorly designed.

Fair - Pound (this move is not interesting enough to be a special move.) Quicker. Her main way to continue combos in the air.

F-Smash - Hyper Voice. Terrific horizontal range. Fairly slow startup. Gets weaker the farther away the opponent is.

D-Smash - Much less cooldown.

Neutral B - Sing (this is her most iconic move and worthy of being her main B move). Significantly more range. Increase sleep time so that no matter the percent, they will never wake up early enough to punish her before she's even done singing.

Forward B - Rollout. No longer sends her into freefall. She can combo out of it at low percents. Kills at higher percents.

Down B - Rest (as-is, this move is conceptually dumb and strays too far from canon for my liking) Sends them straight up for a Star KO like in Brawl (no flower). Gradually heals 20%.

Up B - Fairy Wind.
Jigglypuff is now officially a Fairy-type and it would be cool if this was acknowledged by P:M. This would (finally!) function as a true recovery move. She twirls upwards surrounded by a sparkling wind, similar to Wario's corkscrew.

 

[Nazo]

Sing should be land cancel-able.

 

[deadjames]

She's like the Wii Fit Trainer of the original Smash 64, she doesn't represent Pokemon or is super bad *** like Mewtwo was in the series, yet she kicks so much *** if you knew how to play as her.

Jiggs is actually pretty bad in 64, and I'd say Falcon was more a wtf character than her because nobody expected an F-Zero character to be playable in a fighting game.

Sing should be land cancel-able.

^This

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

I cant even create a moveset for Jiggs. I dont know what to give her. Based off her character archetype ( Zoning, punish) any major boost to her normals would make her overpowered. Like wise changing her moves would re-invent her playstyle; something i dont think many players would enjoy.

I personally would like a re-inventing of her B- moves, and i do like Fair = a faster Pound. I wouldnt give her the fairy wind recovery as mentioned early, I'd prefer her having some utility B - moves that would help when she's under pressure or assist in setting up for the kill. I would like to see 2 hitboxes on rest, similar to Zelda's tippy toes. One probably incompassing her whole body as a hitbox with the same knockback of Brawl. And the same inner hitbox for the melee rest. I would also like to see less recovery on it. I understand missing the move should get you punished, but i dont believe getting a good rest kill should lead into a fully charged smash, falcon, or wizard punch. I would like it to be punishable slightly, like a simple smash when you fall off the respawn platform. Maybe even only allowing you time for a tilt or falling air attack, however that may be too much.

 

[SoulPech]

My only two things I would vamp are her Utilt and d-air. the Ultilt needs to have more of a disjointed hitbox (gets her a better ground option). As for the d-air, it feels like when l-cancel happens, There seems to be like a weird delay where no inputs can be done. In Melee, you can just Dair and do whatever you want, but it feels like there's a half-second delay after I lcancel dair. Maybe it's me but these are my suggestions

 

[greenblob]

I'd like to see the Teleport come back.

 

[210stuna]

So the data is the same (concerning Rest) but the stages size are not the same, therefore making it not as killer because of it. Do the Puff developers not see anything wrong with that?

 

[t3chn0g0at]

I don't even know how it's possible to fix Puff at this point. She's just so far behind everyone.

 

[GeZ]

I don't even know how it's possible to fix Puff at this point. She's just so far behind everyone.

Far behind? I don't follow. Could you explain what you mean?

 

[Nausicaa]

She's broken, it's tough to fix things that are broken when they're made of material that's ancient (fluff), behind is a reference to time, and how dated her fluff is (1998 SSB release date).

 

[GeZ]

She's broken, it's tough to fix things that are broken when they're made of material that's ancient (fluff), behind is a reference to time, and how dated her fluff is (1998 SSB release date).

But she's wonderful and we've come to accept our helium based god. Also I really hope the sing change that I saw makes it into the final build, but I've heard it probably won't. Fingers crossed.

 

[N00B64]

make sing be able to be clashable with projectiles

either have sing be able to be jump canceled out of or have down smash come out in an instant.

there is now a jigglypuff that can deal with keep away characters and rushdown characters

 

[GeZ]

make sing be able to be clashable with projectiles

either have sing be able to be jump canceled out of or have down smash come out in an instant.

there is now a jigglypuff that can deal with keep away characters and rushdown characters

The problems are intrinsically deeper and less easily solvable than that, though I got to playtest a build of Jiggs that had an altered side B before 3.0 was released. I think the consensus in the backroom is that Jiggs just doesn't need the changes and can hold her own already which really is true.

 

[210stuna]

Against all these projectile infested enemies?

Yeah...That's an even steeper up hill battle for Jiggs.

 

[deoxxys]

PLEASE Project M people, do SOMETHING to make jigglypuff better, ANYTHING!

I liked the idea of sing blocking projectiles and its range should be incresed some or changed to a projectile. Now Snake is MUCH better at putting people to sleep.

 

[GeZ]

Guys, play more. Jigglypuff is really freaking good. She's got great normals and one of the best specials in the game. Until she really drops off, she won't need buffs. The discussion as it's devolved in this thread is one of the least useful as it doesn't actually help expand Jiggs meta in any way.

 

[Steelia]

About Jigglypuff's Sing, this is just me spitballing here, but I think way how Sing comes out should be different in terms of usage and range. Instead of being a very close-range surrounding move, I like to recommend having Sing be shooting out in a form of musical notes flying forward in a short distance range like the range of Squirtle's Bubble while on the ground. That way Sing won't needlessly be a waste of Special B move.

As of now, it is just virtually unusable and not worth the risk of using Sing in any situations.

But Sing doesn't cause damage in the games... Then again, neither does Disable.

What about making Jiggs's Sing into a new Taunt that does the exact same thing (puts foes to sleep who are near), allowing her Up-B to be changed into something more usable? Yeah, you wouldn't be able to Taunt in midair with it, but why would you do that anyway. She's part-Fairy in the games now, so for a new Up-B she could do something Fairy...-y.

 

[SoulPech]

I still think her Rest should actually do what it's intended to... "Rest". Why not have her restore some hp? Not alot, but at least something.

I do like the idea with moving the sing into a taunt and turning into up b. Maybe do like a fairy type move.

I also think it'd be neat for her to have a prop taunt, like how squirtle puts on his glasses, but actually useful. I think it'd be cool if she does her side taunt (wehre she twirls around) and at the end she pulls out a marker from the anime series. If she pounds you w/ it, it can either do additional damage, do lipstick damage (damage over time) or just have a funny thing where she writes on them and the more you pound, the more grafitti is on them.

 

[deoxxys]

But Sing doesn't cause damage in the games... Then again, neither does Disable.

What about making Jiggs's Sing into a new Taunt that does the exact same thing (puts foes to sleep who are near), allowing her Up-B to be changed into something more usable? Yeah, you wouldn't be able to Taunt in midair with it, but why would you do that anyway. She's part-Fairy in the games now, so for a new Up-B she could do something Fairy...-y.

hes not saying it should do damage, hes just saying the projectile should put characters to sleep.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Jigglypuff is top tier, but her metagame is slow to grow. Just like Melee.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Possible ideas:

1) Sing is only really Jiggly's staple in the manga or animes. So it wouldn't be a sin to axe it entirely for a different kind of attack. Dazzling Gleam could be a very viable and awesome substitute for Sing, and represents her fairy typing. It could have a decent attack radius, but be used for flinching mostly and a tiny bit of damage - with an ending delay to make up for the huger-than-Sing-range. However if used up close, it can stun the opponent. Like disable from Mewtwo. It's basically an over glorified Flash in the game, and since it is a flash of light, stunning up close and flinching from a far makes a lot of sense.

2) If Sing is to be used, it should become a music note projectile. It was shown to be that in the game's for the most part, so it'd still make a lot of sense. It'd also make Sing useful. I like this idea the best because I feel Dazzling Gleam would either be too underwhelming or too overpowering.

3) Make Dazzling Gleam a taunt move that can stun up close, no damage dealt. I feel it should really be used somewhere. It's too awesome of a move idea to skip, especially since she's part fairy now.

Jiggly is pretty good as she is now, but she is a slow starter and is quite easy to send flying. So I feel that option 1 or 2 should be utilized to make up for the fact that she has very little range when attacking.

 

[210stuna]

How do you guys feel about the minor buff she received in 3.0?

Sing sleep power increased to compensate the sleep mechanic changes

Clearly that's what she needed.

/sarcasm

 

[GeZ]

I think the same thing about it as I do the state of my insomnia on christmas eve.
IT'S ****ING GREAT

 

[BertEast]

I'd like to be able to air dodge out of her b special.

 

[SoulPech]

i just realized...

*Jigglytuff Move Suggestion Thread*

Jigglypuff is spelled wrong o.o

 

[Rᴏb]

A problem I see with buffing sing in any way is how easy the rest follow up will then be...

The only thing I think needs to be changed is rollout, it's a useless move. As for what could replace it, maybe sing? It would make suiciding for attempting the rising sideb a non-issue. We would still need to find something to replace upb though...

 

[SoulPech]

i don't think it's a worthless move. HBox and I still manage to get dumb kills out of it and for some reason, players still try to contest it and get whacked by it. Not to mention you can wear down shield up to 3 times, which can shield poke and hit them.

 

[210stuna]

Rollout also mixes up with the already God like recovery, not to mention can be a killer at low percent when playing teams.

 

[BertEast]

What should be added is some rollout utility. Like being able to air dodge out of it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Just my 2 cents:
Give sing some Squirtle bubble-like properties like mentioned above + being landing-cancelled (landing-cancelled sleep can setup to rest)
Brawl Fair sweetspot with killing power (maybe guaranteed after d-throw or f-throw at certain weights, percents and floatiness-values)
Make the footstool->rest work on more characters
Air dodge out of rollout (not if being charged, only when released)

What do you think about these suggestions?

 

[BertEast]

Just my 2 cents:
Give sing some Squirtle bubble-like properties like mentioned above + being landing-cancelled (landing-cancelled sleep can setup to rest)
Brawl Fair sweetspot with killing power (maybe guaranteed after d-throw or f-throw at certain weights, percents and floatiness-values)
Make the footstool->rest work on more characters
Air dodge out of rollout (not if being charged, only when released)

What do you think about these suggestions?

For the sing, I'm not to sure what you mean.

Fair sweetspot would add a lot more power to her already amazing aerial game. So nah.

Footstool rest, sure why not.

Air dodge out of Rollout, I like.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

With sing I mean that when you land (on the ground), the move stops. The bubble-like properties are referring to a quickly spreading hitbox with the size of bubble when in air and standard sing properties on the ground.
You are probably right on the fair maybe change the dtilt a bit instead and make it a bit like Warios (not THAT good though)
Footstool rest works on a few characters right now, would be nice to make it a legit weapon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgHgbs7mKDE
Thx for feedback

 

[V170]

Right now she's exactly the same as melee except for the DACUS, how about giving her the best of both worlds because as bad as she was on Brawl, some things were made better. Fair had more knockback, pound had great shield damage and rollout didn't send her into freefall. That with making sing come out a little faster and I think she could be back to the top of the tier list like the old days. Also making rest send the opponent upwards like in Brawl but with the Melee power would be great to prevent being so easily punished after a kill, but maybe that would be a little too OP.