Jab Lock Set Up Percentages

[Uffe]

Simply using Ness' neutral air at these percents will cause the opponent to fall on their backs, assuming the opponent doesn't tech. If you manage to land a neutral aerial against your opponent and chase them afterwards, you should be able to jab three times and then perform your last attack, whether it be a smash or something else, as they're forced to get up.

#|Characters|% for Jab Lock
01.|Mario| 35%
02.|Luigi| 35%
03.|Peach| 33%
04.|Bowser| 40%
05.|Yoshi| 37%
06.|Rosalina & Luma| 31%
07.|Bowser Jr.| 36%
08.|Wario| 37%
09.|Mr. Game & Watch| 30%
10.|Donkey Kong| 41%
11.|Diddy Kong| 34%
12.|Link| 37%
13.|Zelda| 32%
14.|Sheik| 32%
15.|Ganondorf| 38%
16.|Toon Link| 34%
17.|Samus| 37%
18.|Zero Suit Samus| 31%
19.|Pit| 35%
20.|Palutena| 34%
21.|Marth| 33%
22.|Ike| 37%
23.|Robin| 34%
24.|Kirby| 30%
25.|King Dedede| 40%
26.|Meta Knight| 31%
27.|Little Mac| 31%
28.|Fox| 31%
29.|Falco| 31%
30.|Pikachu| 31%
31.|Charizard| 39%
32.|Lucario| 35%
33.|Jigglypuff| 28%
34.|Greninja| 34%
35.|Duck Hunt| 34%
36.|R.O.B.| 37%
37.|Ness| 34%
38.|Captain Falcon| 37%
39.|Villager| 35%
40.|Olimar| 31%
41.|Wii Fit Trainer| 35%
42.|Dr. Mario| 35%
43.|Dark Pit| 35%
44.|Lucina| 33%
45.|Shulk| 36%
46.|Pac-Man| 34%
47.|Mega Man| 36%
48.|Sonic| 34%
49.|Mii Brawler| 36%
50.|Mii Swordfighter| 36%
51.|Mii Gunner| 36%

 

[Waael]

Thanks for this Uffe! I was planning to post something about this, but I dont need to. This is great

 

[Noa.]

Does it only work at that specific percent?

And this is very nice haha.

 

[Funen1]

It should be that percent and above @ Noa. , since that's when the opponent starts being put into a tumble. Obviously once their percent gets high enough they'll be knocked too far away, but within a certain range should be feasible.

Anyway, great stuff @ Uffe . It's funny though, recently I've been experimenting with when F-air and Ness' jab combo would force a hard knockdown as well, but I imagine it's easier to follow up a N-air with a jab lock compared to those two lol. I'm a little busy right now, but when I'm free again I can post the values for those moves too if anyone's interested.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

So does this mean we can follow the general rule of 35-40%?

 

[Earthbound360]

Yeah, it was like this in Brawl too. Just know that your opponent CAN DJ or tech this, so it's not guaranteed. Also, landing a nair in neutral that low to the ground doesn't happen too easily.

Another fun thing to do on BF is to shark someone with fair or nair, and make them slide off the platform. Free jab lock there sicne I don't think you can tech sliding off of something.

 

[Uffe]

@ Waael If you want, you can help me with when the percent for the neutral air to jab lock stops working. @ Noa. asked the question about this and now I'm thinking I should have done this. I may end up doing that later today. I might be busy later on, though. I meant to tag you, @ Funen1 because I saw a recent post of yours in @Mr.Wright's topic about the jab locks. You've mentioned using forward air, and I've been able to connect this as well when my opponent landed on their backs, but I haven't been consistent with it. I'm not saying it won't work, because it can, it's just the times I've done it, it was an accident.

@ EarthBoundEnigma I'd say maybe 30-40%. Jigglypuff is the only one that will start at 28%, so that should be very easy to remember since she's the only one. The others you may have to remember or guess. Of course the percents won't be precise as they are listed here. If Bowser is at 42%, then you'll know that neutral air will still knock him back if they don't tech or jump. @ Earthbound360 You are correct. These aren't guaranteed, but it's something to keep in mind if you want to learn when to jab lock. I also know about the usages of platforms. Unfortunately, you can only do these on your opponents at very low percent. I want to say anything about 11-12% is the moment it stops working. That's another one of the reasons I decided to look into this jab lock stuff, because it can be done at higher percents and without platforms.

Also, EB360, you don't need to hit your opponent with neutral air low to the ground to do this. You can do a SH > nair into a rising position > FF > jab x3 > f-smash. Doing it low would be much more dangerous.

 

[Funen1]

@ Waael If you want, you can help me with when the percent for the neutral air to jab lock stops working. @ Noa. asked the question about this and now I'm thinking I should have done this. I may end up doing that later today. I might be busy later on, though. I meant to tag you, @ Funen1 because I saw a recent post of yours in @Mr.Wright's topic about the jab locks. You've mentioned using forward air, and I've been able to connect this as well when my opponent landed on their backs, but I haven't been consistent with it. I'm not saying it won't work, because it can, it's just the times I've done it, it was an accident.

Yeah, you're pretty much only likely to get into a position to jab lock someone after F-air if they're floaty, but then you still run into the same problems of them merely teching, attacking, or jumping away first. DI is probably also a factor that could limit when jab lock follow-ups work, but I don't know how big it'll be, especially for fast-fallers. I also want to clarify for future reference that us saying it "doesn't work anymore" has more to do with them being knocked too far away to follow up with a jab lock rather than the mechanics behind this whole thing not working anymore, since they'll always be put into a tumbling animation above the percents you listed.

I mainly see the idea of these moves forcing opponents into a tumble as a way for Ness to limit their options, as they'll have to do something to get themselves out of that tumble, be it tech, jump, use an aerial move, or air-dodge (a terrible option if they do it too close to the ground), lest they can be caught with a jab lock, or a dash attack if they're otherwise out of range. As I found out recently, you can no longer wiggle the control stick to get out of tumbling in Smash 4, so if they're gonna do something, it's gonna be something that they have to commit to.

 

[Noa.]

This thread is really great I like it a lot. I'm adding it to the Thread Directory. We can't lost this.

 

[Uffe]

Yeah, you're pretty much only likely to get into a position to jab lock someone after F-air if they're floaty, but then you still run into the same problems of them merely teching, attacking, or jumping away first. DI is probably also a factor that could limit when jab lock follow-ups work, but I don't know how big it'll be, especially for fast-fallers. I also want to clarify for future reference that us saying it "doesn't work anymore" has more to do with them being knocked too far away to follow up with a jab lock rather than the mechanics behind this whole thing not working anymore, since they'll always be put into a tumbling animation above the percents you listed.

I mainly see the idea of these moves forcing opponents into a tumble as a way for Ness to limit their options, as they'll have to do something to get themselves out of that tumble, be it tech, jump, use an aerial move, or air-dodge (a terrible option if they do it too close to the ground), lest they can be caught with a jab lock, or a dash attack if they're otherwise out of range. As I found out recently, you can no longer wiggle the control stick to get out of tumbling in Smash 4, so if they're gonna do something, it's gonna be something that they have to commit to.

I didn't take DI into account here. I most likely didn't because I only have a 3DS to work on, so I can't use people to test this with me. I know that this not working anymore has to do with how far they're being knocked away. I'm going to go back and check what percents the jab lock can no longer be performed. If they do tech, jump, or attack, even dodge, Ness should be able to chase them into an attack or grab, depending on the situation. By the way, if you can, or anyone who has a Wii U, could test if there is a difference in fall back when Shulk has his Shield Monado Arts on? Maybe even with Kirby with the Shield. I'd like to know if there is a difference, then I can go back and make edits to this. If you want, we can talk this over on Skype, but that will have to be later on. I'm busy at the moment.

This thread is really great I like it a lot. I'm adding it to the Thread Directory. We can't lose this.

Thanks, Noa. That would be great.

 

[Tikao]

so is this something you could generally consider usefull, or more of a gimmick working only once or twice on the same person?

 

[Uffe]

so is this something you could generally consider usefull, or more of a gimmick working only once or twice on the same person?

If they can attack or jump out of the hit, then it's probably a gimmick. If not, then it has its uses. It could probably be used more than three times on the same person. I feel most people will go for a tech than anything else. Even if they do tech, or even attack or jump, you can chase them with something else. I mean, when you figure out how other characters work, you're bound to find yourself getting caught in the most obvious choice. Ness' d-throw > fair still has its uses even though people expect it. I'd imagine this is the same thing when it comes to knowing your opponent.

 

[Earthbound360]

Also you might wanna note that nair has a sweetspot. Sweetspotting will lock at lower percentages than the sourspot.

Oddly enough, fair locked people better in Brawl because it didn't pull people in towards itself.

 

[Uffe]

Also you might wanna note that nair has a sweetspot. Sweetspotting will lock at lower percentages than the sourspot.

Oddly enough, fair locked people better in Brawl because it didn't pull people in towards itself.

I've only been landing sweetspotted nairs. How do you even sourspot this attack?

 

[Funen1]

If they can attack or jump out of the hit, then it's probably a gimmick. If not, then it has its uses. It could probably be used more than three times on the same person. I feel most people will go for a tech than anything else. Even if they do tech, or even attack or jump, you can chase them with something else. I mean, when you figure out how other characters work, you're bound to find yourself getting caught in the most obvious choice. Ness' d-throw > fair still has its uses even though people expect it. I'd imagine this is the same thing when it comes to knowing your opponent.

I agree, it's not really the most dominant or fool-proof strategy out there because you'll end up needing to read what your opponent does out of the tumble, and they always have the option to mix that up, but it is still a disadvantageous position for the opponent, at least for a moment. I can see it as useful in terms of Ness' mid-percent game, when you can't get combos directly out of throws but before B-throw will kill.

I'll get tables for Ness' jab combo and F-air up after I'm done tending to dinner.

I've only been landing sweetspotted nairs. How do you even sourspot this attack?

According to Thinkaman's data dump, frames 5-12 are the sweetspot and frames 13-15 are the sourspot, a "late hit" if you will. So certainly possible, but probably not likely if you're trying to time the N-air properly.

EDIT: Here are the base values for when Ness' jab combo and F-air start putting opponents into a tumble. Follow-ups aren't necessarily guaranteed after any of these, not the least of which is that they may simply be knocked too far away, as discussed above. But again, this was done more in the context of finding out when you can put your opponent into a position that limits their options. These percents are from Training Mode, so no Rage, damage staleness/freshness, or inputs from the other player are factored in. The numbers also assume that every hit of the jab combo or F-air connects; the numbers in parentheses are the percents for when only the last hit connects, listed mainly for reference.

Character | Jab Combo | F-air
Mario | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Luigi | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Peach | 42% (46%) | 25% (28%)
Bowser | 52% (56%) | 31% (34%)
Yoshi | 46% (50%) | 27% (30%)
Rosalina & Luma | 39% (42%) | 23% (26%)
Bowser Jr. | 46% (50%) | 27% (31%)
Wario | 47% (51%) | 28% (31%)
Donkey Kong | 51% (55%) | 30% (33%)
Diddy Kong | 43% (47%) | 26% (29%)
Mr. Game & Watch | 38% (42%) | 23% (26%)
Little Mac | 40% (44%) | 24% (27%)
Link | 46% (50%) | 27% (30%)
Zelda | 41% (45%) | 24% (27%)
Sheik | 41% (45%) | 24% (27%)
Ganondorf | 48% (52%) | 29% (32%)
Toon Link | 43% (47%) | 27% (30%)
Samus | 47% (51%) | 28% (31%)
Zero Suit Samus | 40% (44%) | 24% (27%)
Pit | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Palutena | 43% (47%) | 25% (28%)
Marth | 42% (46%) | 25% (28%)
Ike | 47% (51%) | 28% (31%)
Robin | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Duck Hunt | 43% (47%) | 25% (28%)
Kirby | 39% (43%) | 23% (26%)
King Dedede | 50% (54%) | 30% (33%)
Meta Knight | 40% (44%) | 23% (26%)
Fox | 39% (43%) | 23% (26%)
Falco | 40% (44%) | 24% (27%)
Pikachu | 39% (43%) | 23% (26%)
Charizard | 49% (53%) | 29% (32%)
Lucario | 45% (49%) | 27% (30%)
Jigglypuff | 36% (40%) | 21% (24%)
Greninja | 43% (47%) | 26% (29%)
R.O.B. | 46% (50%) | 28% (31%)
Ness | 43% (47%) | 26% (29%)
Captain Falcon | 46% (50%) | 27% (30%)
Villager | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Olimar | 39% (43%) | 23% (26%)
Wii Fit Trainer | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Shulk | 45% (49%) | 27% (30%)
Dr. Mario | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Dark Pit | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Lucina | 42% (46%) | 25% (28%)
Pac-Man | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Mega Man | 45% (49%) | 27% (30%)
Sonic | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Mii (lightest weight) | 44% (48%) | 26% (29%)
Mii (default weight) | 45% (49%) | 27% (30%)

 

[Waael]

Small video to help @ Uffe out!

 

[Uffe]

I didn't even see the other list earlier, Funen1. Glad I was tagged or I might have missed it. And thanks, Waael for the upload.

 

[Funen1]

Yeah, I didn't think to put another tag or something in my edit lol. My bad.

Somewhat related to the topic, last night I took a more in-depth look at how tumbling works in this game, what you can do and when and all that. There's still a couple a more things about this that I want to examine, but it seems like you can only fast-fall while tumbling if you press down right at the apex of your flight - there's a sort of window between this apex and when your character fully enters their downwards-tumbling animation, at which point you can't fast-fall without cancelling the tumble. This is mainly something to keep in mind should you be chasing opponents who are in hitstun close to the stage or a platform. Might make it easier to time follow-ups if you can react to them trying to land on the stage instead of jumping, since they only have one chance to change their falling speed.

 

[Earthbound360]

I don't know if uthrow to nair is a viable setup for this. It's really easy for opponents to DI the nair and tech the landing if you use that. The best setup would be to just use nair on them while they're on the ground.

 

[Ranias]

I'm practicing this and it's easier than I thought. Is it possible to PKT2 at the end of this? I think that would be optimal for the KO.

I tested in training mode, and the CPU could barely jump before I get my PKT2 off. Maybe it is possible to do if you are frame perfect.

 

[Earthbound360]

Pretty certain that jab lock doesn't combo into PKT2.

 

[Ranias]

Pretty certain that jab lock doesn't combo into PKT2.

Guess tipper F-smash is the way to go then.

 

[Funen1]

Guess tipper F-smash is the way to go then.

Grabs should work too. I know Fsann did a B-throw after a jab lock in that recent PV of his. Just gotta remember which side of the stage you're on to determine if you need a pivot grab or not.

 

[Waael]

I don't know if uthrow to nair is a viable setup for this. It's really easy for opponents to DI the nair and tech the landing if you use that. The best setup would be to just use nair on them while they're on the ground.

Ignore Up Throw, I was only doing that to put them in the air. I see SH-Nair (When they're in the air) to Jab lock more likely to happen then an opponent standing still on the ground about to get hit with N-air. Good players will Power Shield Ness's Nair. As Ness players we constantly put our opponents in the air. So SH-Nair right as they are in the air seems to make more sense to me.

 

[Uffe]

Ignore Up Throw, I was only doing that to put them in the air. I see SH-Nair (When they're in the air) to Jab lock more likely to happen then an opponent standing still on the ground about to get hit with N-air. Good players will Power Shield Ness's Nair. As Ness players we constantly put our opponents in the air. So SH-Nair right as they are in the air seems to make more sense to me.

You know the shield is coming, so be sure to retreat when you need to. You can even retreat upwards with nair and if the attack connects, fast fall near your opponent and prepare for a potential jab locking.

 

[Earthboundy]

This game seems to get more and more complex and I love it. I really wanna master this. Can his bat end the jab lock?

 

[Noa.]

Fsmash and Grab are the best options out of jab lock. Maybe even pk fire, depending on the character and if you do it point blank.

 

[Funen1]

Little bit of a bump at this point, but recently I took a more in-depth look at how a N-air to jab lock setup works, such as at what percents Ness can properly follow opponents and what the best DI is. These numbers might also be relevant in terms of framing Ness' throw combos, i.e., knowing which aerials to use after D-throw if you want to put the opponent in range for a N-air to jab lock setup.

The best way to DI N-air when you're on the ground is to hold the control stick straight up. With a small handful of exceptions (see below), every character will be able to perform an aerial action such as a jump or attack before they hit the ground, no matter their percent. Holding up and in the opposite direction you're sent flying seems to have the same effect, but holding up and in the same direction does not. If you don't DI the N-air right, then the percent you'll be able to jump out before hitting the ground is a bit higher (depends more on fall speed than weight).

I've organized the numbers below. @ Uffe 's numbers in the OP (plus Mewtwo, who is sent tumbling at 29%) naturally mark the lower limit since that's when the characters will be forced into a tech situation. The percent that characters can jump without having input any DI beforehand serves as a sort of hard limit on how late this setup works, though a few of the fastest fallers in the cast still fall too far away near that upper limit for Ness to follow and jab lock them (I give the highest percent that I was able to pull it off). This was all done in Training, so as usual, keep in mind that the numbers may be slightly different in real matches due to Rage and damage staling, especially when it comes to the fourth column. The second and third columns also assume no DI at all (players can hold away to make it harder for Ness to catch up too). Because fall speed is the most important factor that affects how big the percent range is, I split up the Miis into each of the four type/size combinations that are legal for EVO.

Character | Jab Lock Punish Range | When can they jump? | DI up to escape early?
Mario | 35%-44% | 45% | Always
Luigi | 35%-39% | 40% | Always
Peach | 33%-36% | 37% | Always
Bowser | 42%-48% | 49% | Always
Yoshi | 37%-42% | 43% | Always
Rosalina & Luma | 31%-33% | 34% | Always
Bowser Jr. | 36%-56% | 57% | Always
Wario | 37%-55% | 56% | Always
Donkey Kong | 41%-60% | 61% | Always
Diddy Kong | 34%-59% | 60% | Except at 34%
Mr. Game & Watch | 30%-33% | 34% | Always
Little Mac | 31%-57% | 58% | Except at 31%
Link | 37%-53% | 54% | Always
Zelda | 32%-37% | 38% | Always
Sheik | 32%-48% | 49% | Always
Ganondorf | 38%-57% | 58% | Always
Toon Link | 34%-39% | 40% | Always
Samus | 37%-42% | 43% | Always
Zero Suit Samus | 31%-49% | 50% | Always
Pit | 35%-43% | 44% | Always
Palutena | 34%-39% | 40% | Always
Marth | 33%-46% | 47% | Always
Ike | 37%-58% | 59% | Always
Robin | 34%-43% | 44% | Always
Duck Hunt | 34%-52% | 53% | Always
Kirby | 30%-33% | 34% | Always
King Dedede | 40%-75% | 84% | Except at 40%-41%
Meta Knight | 31%-48% | 49% | Always
Fox | 31%-53% | 57% | Except at 31%
Falco | 31%-56% | 57% | Except at 31%-32%
Pikachu | 31%-41% | 42% | Always
Charizard | 39%-45% | 46% | Always
Lucario | 35%-49% | 50% | Always
Jigglypuff | 28% | 29% | Always
Greninja | 34%-50% | 51% | Always
R.O.B. | 37%-54% | 55% | Always
Ness | 34%-39% | 40% | Always
Captain Falcon | 37%-66% | 69% | Except at 37%
Villager | 35%-40% | 41% | Always
Olimar | 31%-35% | 36% | Always
Wii Fit Trainer | 35%-39% | 40% | Always
Shulk | 36%-45% | 46% | Always
Dr. Mario | 35%-44% | 45% | Always
Dark Pit | 35%-43% | 44% | Always
Lucina | 33%-46% | 47% | Always
Pac-Man | 34%-40% | 41% | Always
Mega Man | 36%-63% | 66% | Except at 36%-37%
Sonic | 34%-41% | 42% | Always
Mewtwo | 29%-37% | 38% | Always
Brawler (lightest weight) | 35%-59% | 60% | Always
Brawler (default weight) | 36%-58% | 59% | Always
Swordfighter (lightest weight) | 35%-51% | 52% | Always
Gunner (lightest weight) | 35%-42% | 43% | Always