Its been buggin me for awhile but why is ganon the worst in brawl?

[Mystu82]

Cause i use him alot but i think hes good enough to beat his low match ups

 

[smashkng]

There is a clear reason:
-He has way too many major weaknesses
And they're like
-Terrible grab range combined with slow jump and fastest ground move being 8 frames makes his out of shield options terrible
-Projectiles shut him down hard (only option= being amazing at powershielding)
-A pretty bad recovery with his up b being punishable on hit at mid to higher percents by many characters
-Very punishable options from getting up to the ledge, especially because of the carry-over landing lag from using Up b and/or side b
-Very slow mobility
-Has barely any disjoints, which are just like slightly extended hitboxes on moves like Fsmash and Dtilt
-A very unsafe moveset, especially when his grab range is so bad and even more against people who can spot dodge his side b on reaction
-Hitboxes are so high on most moves including Bair that would be a safe move if it wasn't for that

He's definitely the worst character in the game, but there are people who have trouble fighting this character and it's still skill>tiers.

Nothing else needs to be explained
/thread

 

[Mystu82]

i sometimes have trouble fighting him at level 9 but i use falco to avoid this

 

[Z1GMA]

Check out his Frame Data.

 

[Mystu82]

but does have a chance against bowser

 

[A2ZOMG]

To sum it up, has the worst zoning options in the game. Brawl is dominated by zoning, which is the ability to actively control space and impose threats reliably and safely.

Basically there's a lot of space he really can't feasibly control at once. He's a character who has an extremely difficult time controlling both the air and the ground at once, and this is partly because his anti-air options are really situational, also largely because his shieldgrab is the shortest ranged in the game (not helped by the fact he has what might be the 3rd slowest run speed if I recall). All of his aerials are good, except for the fact they either hit too high to reach grounded opponents, or they have bad landing lag if they are used as air to ground attacks.

Furthermore his movepool sucks at baiting spotdodges since the vast majority of his options lose to shield and because his Flame Choke, while an AMAZING PUNISH MOVE, can be easily reacted to from a neutral position.

A lot of characters combo and chaingrab him easily due to his weight and fall speed. He's easily gimped especially if you fail to DI optimally since his recovery is predictable.

There is only one thing Ganon is good at. He capitalizes extremely well. He has the tools to juggle, edgeguard, and even combo very very effectively. Generally speaking his entire movepool is incredible when his opponent slips up or gets put in a disadvantageous position. However there is a problem that generally speaking, Ganondorf is literally only able to land a few specific moves against a good opponent since each of his moves is pretty much designed for specific punish situations. This makes it extremely difficult for Ganondorf to score a KO consistently due to stale moves reducing the effectiveness of his best KO moves, which inevitably have to be used as damage dealers due to the lack of other viable options.

To be frank, Ganon was meant to be used in a metagame with items, since he has some of the most deadly item related combos in the game by far, and the broken properties of items pretty much solve every problem Ganon has in the current metagame (aside from the fact his poor mobility is still an issue in actually getting items). It's probably why Sakurai mains Ganon (now if only that video was still on youtube...).

 

[Mystu82]

so characters like meta knight can combo the hell him but mk is fast as foxs attacks but he should use that sword of his he pulls a sword from God knows Where

 

[Z1GMA]

To sum it up, has the worst zoning options in the game. Brawl is dominated by zoning, which is the ability to actively control space and impose threats reliably and safely.

Basically there's a lot of space he really can't feasibly control at once. He's a character who has an extremely difficult time controlling both the air and the ground at once, and this is partly because his anti-air options are really situational, also largely because his shieldgrab is the shortest ranged in the game (not helped by the fact he has what might be the 3rd slowest run speed if I recall). All of his aerials are good, except for the fact they either hit too high to reach grounded opponents, or they have bad landing lag if they are used as air to ground attacks.

Furthermore his movepool sucks at baiting spotdodges since the vast majority of his options lose to shield and because his Flame Choke, while an AMAZING PUNISH MOVE, can be easily reacted to from a neutral position.

A lot of characters combo and chaingrab him easily due to his weight and fall speed. He's easily gimped especially if you fail to DI optimally since his recovery is predictable.

There is only one thing Ganon is good at. He capitalizes extremely well. He has the tools to juggle, edgeguard, and even combo very very effectively. Generally speaking his entire movepool is incredible when his opponent slips up or gets put in a disadvantageous position. However there is a problem that generally speaking, Ganondorf is literally only able to land a few specific moves against a good opponent since each of his moves is pretty much designed for specific punish situations. This makes it extremely difficult for Ganondorf to score a KO consistently due to stale moves reducing the effectiveness of his best KO moves, which inevitably have to be used as damage dealers due to the lack of other viable options.

To be frank, Ganon was meant to be used in a metagame with items, since he has some of the most deadly item related combos in the game by far, and the broken properties of items pretty much solve every problem Ganon has in the current metagame (aside from the fact his poor mobility is still an issue in actually getting items). It's probably why Sakurai mains Ganon (now if only that video was still on youtube...).

And maybe Jablocking + forced rising was the solution to make Ganon **** with items like the Beamsword and the Spicy curry.

Btw, any ideas on who would be the Bottom Tier in a ITEM TIER LIST?

 

[Ganonsburg]

Probably someone like Snake or Diddy, who thrive on being able to control items where others can't. Or maybe Samus. You hit her away and you get all day to go get whatever items appear, and her own projectiles are less of a help when items are there to compete with them. And, she's already not that far from the bottom.

Ganondorf would get an insane jump just from the pitfall though. Essentially guaranteed kills, ESPECIALLY from Gerudo > Pitfall > WP/charged Fsmash/whatever.

 

[Claire Diviner]

"Elephant in the room", so I'll say it: Yeah, I believe there's already a thread that explains Ganon's pros and cons. Not to be mean, but this thread is pretty pointless. >__>

 

[Mystu82]

someone who uses items like link tend to keep a distance to prevent others makin quick attacks but ganon only has a few

 

[A2ZOMG]

Btw, any ideas on who would be the Bottom Tier in a ITEM TIER LIST?

I'd say Link is the worst in competitive singles and tied with Samus for worst in doubles with items turned on. He's just kinda weak and slow compared to everyone else and doesn't really get very special item related exploits.

I'd also rank Bowser and DK pretty low in singles and doubles with items turned on. They are by far the easiest characters in the game to edgeguard KO with items turned on, and their actual item games aren't really good enough to deal with bad matchups.

In "serious" Item FFAs, probably Marth is the worst, just since most of his attacks are best when directed on a single opponent, and he's a rather light character as well.

 

[Z1GMA]

Also, I think Zss is pretty bad with items.
She can't really take advantage of the opponent when they're asleep, burrowed etc..
Her Smashes never kill ;\

 

[Mystu82]

so that also makes easy to edgeguard but both of them are higher than Ganon i find ZSS harder than her armor form she has no 3rd jump low killing ko potential, beside why is snake so high on the tier list i cant even play as him cause of attacks seem slow like ganons

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I'd say Link is the worst in competitive singles and tied with Samus for worst in doubles with items turned on. He's just kinda weak and slow compared to everyone else and doesn't really get very special item related exploits.

I'd also rank Bowser and DK pretty low in singles and doubles with items turned on. They are by far the easiest characters in the game to edgeguard KO with items turned on, and their actual item games aren't really good enough to deal with bad matchups.

In "serious" Item FFAs, probably Marth is the worst, just since most of his attacks are best when directed on a single opponent, and he's a rather light character as well.

Headbutt to homerun bat.

 

[Z1GMA]

so that also makes easy to edgeguard but both of them are higher than Ganon i find ZSS harder than her armor form she has no 3rd jump low killing ko potential, beside why is snake so high on the tier list i cant even play as him cause of attacks seem slow like ganons

Play a lot of good ppl and you'll see how the Tier List works.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Headbutt to homerun bat.

Try landing that on a good Falco. =P

 

[T.testLP]

so that also makes easy to edgeguard but both of them are higher than Ganon i find ZSS harder than her armor form she has no 3rd jump low killing ko potential, beside why is snake so high on the tier list i cant even play as him cause of attacks seem slow like ganons

Only his Side Smash and Down Smash is slow like Ganondorf. His other attacks come out quickly, especially his tilts. His ftilt can lock opponents and his utilt is notorious for its ridiculous range, speed and power. He has the DACUS which easily lets him approach. He has great stage control with his various explosives. He is the 3rd heaviest character in the game, making him survive to ridiculous percentages and negating the danger of self hurting explosives.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Try landing that on a good Falco. =P

There are no good Falco's. It's Items.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How about a good Falco that has any idea how the Diddy matchup works? Or a Falco from Japan for that matter.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Omg, just came back from Item friendlies. Whornado + Spicy Curry ***** puppies.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I would just like to say I looked at this thread for 2 seconds and I got a vm from Tero calling me a Ganon troll.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I would just like to say I looked at this thread for 2 seconds and I got a vm from Tero calling me a Ganon troll.

I'm a beast at calling my friends out on board lurking.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Tero's the equivalent to Minrva from Final Fantasy XIII: he keeps an eye out on everyone. XD

 

[funkyluc]

Like some people here, I wouldn't agree he is the worst or best character in Brawl. The reason why so many people dislike him is because he is a CARBON copy of Captain Falcon and he is too slow. However, he is VERY powerful which is why I use him frequently.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Like some people here, I wouldn't agree he is the worst or best character in Brawl. The reason why so many people dislike him is because he is a CARBON copy of Captain Falcon and he is too slow. However, he is VERY powerful which is why I use him frequently.

He may be a carbon copy (though not by the strictest definition of the term) of Falcon, but his playstyle is indeed entirely different. XD

 

[funkyluc]

He may be a carbon copy (though not by the strictest definition of the term) of Falcon, but his playstyle is indeed entirely different. XD

Yeah, I only play as him because he is powerful, but I really think that the producers could have incorporated his sword for more enjoyable gameplay.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Yeah, I only play as him because he is powerful, but I really think that the producers could have incorporated his sword for more enjoyable gameplay.

Countless people have been saying that since seeing him swing a sword in his victory pose from Melee. Though, at this point, there's little hope for sword action, we may have to hope they change Dorf to be a sword weilder in a possible Smash Bros. 4. XD

 

[Vermanubis]

There're a lot of meretricious arguments about how Ganon deserves mid-tier or something. But there are a lot of reasons why he is as bad as he is, at least, at top levels of play.

Ganon is a generally unbalanced character. He has the most power of anyone in the game, all things considered, but he lacks everything else. This is like having a gigantic bicep in your left arm, but having acute nerve damage in that arm so you can't move it. You have tons of power potential, but no way of achieving it.

The point is is that in a game like Brawl, risks are highly discouraged and seldom rewarded. Ganon is nothing but risk, since every move he makes is an unsafe one. A lot of what creates misconception around Ganon being better than he really is is people who don't know the MU very well.

-Second slowest running speed in the game.
-Second worst recovery distance in the game. THE worst all-around recovery in the game.
-Zero defensive options.
-Few offensive options.
-Shortest grab in the game.
-Tallest character, ergo, easiest to shield poke.
-No safe moves thanks to little to no disjoint.
-No pokes of his own.

But if you ignore all of that trivial ****, Ganon is indeed the best in the game. Those adversities are a mole hill before the olympian monument that is Ganondorf.

 

[Mystu82]

.....Tallest character? i thourght Bowser was? unless you mean out the human sized characters

 

[Vermanubis]

Bowser's the widest. Ganon's tallest by a head.

 

[Mystu82]

ohhhh.....i see but...... if you some how get bowser into the T stance he be the tallest yes?

 

[Exalted]

Bowser is the biggest, but Ganondorf is the tallest.

Edit: Lol I'm late.

 

[Mystu82]

yes you are hehehe it seems that i missed out on alot of things, (hm if ganons the tallest who would be next) :S

 

[Mystu82]

............

 

[Claire Diviner]

yes you are hehehe it seems that i missed out on alot of things, (hm if ganons the tallest who would be next) :S

I believe Bowser's second tallest... either that, or Snake. Also, refrain from double-posting please.

 

[A2ZOMG]

-Second slowest running speed in the game.
-Second worst recovery distance in the game. THE worst all-around recovery in the game.
-Zero defensive options.
-Few offensive options.
-Shortest grab in the game.
-Tallest character, ergo, easiest to shield poke.
-No safe moves thanks to little to no disjoint.
-No pokes of his own.

Bowser's recovery is worse, as well as Ivysaur's. OOS D-tilt and B reverse Flame Choke are alright defensive options (not what he really needs though). And Ganon isn't the tallest character while shielding (especially once you realize how good angling shield downwards is for Ganon), and his shield size is respectable enough. Bowser, DK, and ROB are easier characters to shield poke.

I could live with most of the mentioned weaknesses if Ganon simply had better grab range and safer aerials to use on short characters. The lack of zoning options above all the other "unfair" ways Ganon gets screwed over is what really kills Ganon. He can kill really easily, except for the fact he has some of the worst time in the game landing hits for damage purposes, which actually in turn gives him a problem scoring KOs.

 

[Mystu82]

yeah i didnt mean to double post,so Bowser has the worse recovery

 

[Vermanubis]

Bowser's recovery is worse, as well as Ivysaur's. OOS D-tilt and B reverse Flame Choke are alright defensive options (not what he really needs though). And Ganon isn't the tallest character while shielding (especially once you realize how good angling shield downwards is for Ganon), and his shield size is respectable enough. Bowser, DK, and ROB are easier characters to shield poke.

I could live with most of the mentioned weaknesses if Ganon simply had better grab range and safer aerials to use on short characters. The lack of zoning options above all the other "unfair" ways Ganon gets screwed over is what really kills Ganon. He can kill really easily, except for the fact he has some of the worst time in the game landing hits for damage purposes, which actually in turn gives him a problem scoring KOs.

I think the recovery thing is up for debate. I say Ganon's is worse simply because of how many ways it can be bad. It has killer vertical reach, but as we all know, the supreme lack of hitstun, the weird angle at which he dives, and so forth, ruins it. Bowser is a little easier to gimp, as is Ivysaur, and they both don't have the vertical range he does. But Ganon's just has too many things wrong with it overall.

Characters like Ike revel in having good vertical recovery, because their hitboxes stay out so long, it's really tough to edgeguard them. Ganon only has one hitbox on dark dive. So yeah, I definitely agree it's not the worst in some regards, but all things considered, it is the absolute worst in Brawl.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but another problem for Ganon is his lack of a reliable way to rack up damage without having to stale his reliable killers. His Ftilt and Dair are wonderful kill moves, but seeing as those are also what he primarily uses for damage, it becomes a bit difficult to kill with said attacks.