Issues with Olimar's Pikmin recovery

[Rhyme]

Double-posting thread Nazi...what? Is there any momentum trick that can be used? Like...in Melee, using aerial attacks during jumping/falling animations would slightly improve a character's recovery, some more than others -points to Mewtwo-. Maybe using Olimar's U/F/Dair or airdodge immediately after midair jumping will improve his? I guess it'd be just as valuable to find a way around ever needing the upB as it is to find a way of using it, right?

 

[Jellyfloater]

I'm not sure if this is going to have the same problems as using a Purple throw, but what about trying one of his aerials? If you're directly below them, couldn't you use Uair, then chain, and hope you make it? Do any of his aerials throw pikmin similar to Fsmash?

EDIT:

oh and you can only use olimar's chain 3 times off the stage. after that it stops working and you...you die.*sigh*

If this is true... can't you chain once to knock them off, then chain again?

 

[IllidR]

I'm not sure if this is going to have the same problems as using a Purple throw, but what about trying one of his aerials? If you're directly below them, couldn't you use Uair, then chain, and hope you make it? Do any of his aerials throw pikmin similar to Fsmash?

EDIT:


If this is true... can't you chain once to knock them off, then chain again?

Well, that is assuming that you're close enough to get one of the aerials on them. Suppose you have 6 Pikmin coming back and you need about a Pikmin Chain of about five in length, then the problems come.

I'm not sure if you can use the Pikmin chain more than once in the air without getting stunned. If you could it'd certainly help but you'd have to hit the opponent with the 45 degree angle of the chain because it won't snap the edge.

 

[icy_icicle]

I posted this in the tether recovery thread in the General Brawl forum, but basically why don't you fair instead of throw a purple pikmin? It seems better to me in every possible way...

 

[snowbonez]

Did they try to whistle their Pikmin back to their sides before using the Up-B?

It may be long enough, but the problem comes from how the Pikmin are aimed. It has to be aimed so that at least one Pikmin is on top of the ledge. If they're all under, the top Pikmin is blocked and can't grab the edge. Besides this, Olimar has a great recovering Up Special move, also great for attacking recovering opponents.

 

[Jellyfloater]

I just thought of something. Yellow Pikmin travel in a high arc, right? Why not throw one of them at the opponent? If they hang there, they get hit. If they go up, they get hit on the way up because the pikmin is coming from above. So they have to roll up to avoid, making them far enough away from the ledge for you to get back in time.

If this works, the only question is... Will a pikmin make someone lose their grip on the ledge? If not, will the electric elemental attack do the trick?

 

[IllidR]

I just thought of something. Yellow Pikmin travel in a high arc, right? Why not throw one of them at the opponent? If they hang there, they get hit. If they go up, they get hit on the way up because the pikmin is coming from above. So they have to roll up to avoid, making them far enough away from the ledge for you to get back in time.

If this works, the only question is... Will a pikmin make someone lose their grip on the ledge? If not, will the electric elemental attack do the trick?

No it will not, they do not cause the person to flinch. You would have to hit them with a purple Pikmin, they're the only ones that get the job done.

It may be long enough, but the problem comes from how the Pikmin are aimed. It has to be aimed so that at least one Pikmin is on top of the ledge. If they're all under, the top Pikmin is blocked and can't grab the edge. Besides this, Olimar has a great recovering Up Special move, also great for attacking recovering opponents.

Wow, I posted that a while ago in this thread.

But the problem isn't with aiming the tether, the Pikmin will auto-seek the ledge if you use the attack in an attempt to recover so you won't have to aim the 45 degree angle. The problem we've been discussing is when someone is edge-hogging you the Pikmin won't grab the edge severely gimping Olimar's recovery and making it pretty bad.

 

[IllidR]

Woops! >.>

Double post? What post?? Never happened!

 

[icy_icicle]

How many of you have actually played Brawl? In no way is this meant to sound demeaning, but after playing for a bit, you don't really notice the tether recovery issue because:
You rarely end up below the stage with Brawl's floatiness,
If you tether when you're horizontal and ASAP, they usually aren't expecting it,
If you're close but not quite there, UpB gives you a slight hop which is actually quite nice that can oftentimes give you just the distance you need to make it over the edge, and
Olimar's fair, bair, and pikmin toss have almost no usage time, giving plenty of opportunity to push edgehoggers out and take their place.

 

[HeroXL]

How many of you have actually played Brawl? In no way is this meant to sound demeaning, but after playing for a bit, you don't really notice the tether recovery issue because:
You rarely end up below the stage with Brawl's floatiness,
If you tether when you're horizontal and ASAP, they usually aren't expecting it,
If you're close but not quite there, UpB gives you a slight hop which is actually quite nice that can oftentimes give you just the distance you need to make it over the edge, and
Olimar's fair, bair, and pikmin toss have almost no usage time, giving plenty of opportunity to push edgehoggers out and take their place.

I have played brawl and I do notice it. and if you dont thats fine, it may not be a big issue to you now, but in the competitive scene every little weakness your character has can and will be exploited. This weakness could be the difference between winning and loosing the championship

 

[Layupfreak]

im not even sure...

 

[NoobasaurusRex]

I have played brawl and I do notice it. and if you dont thats fine, it may not be a big issue to you now, but in the competitive scene every little weakness your character has can and will be exploited. This weakness could be the difference between winning and loosing the championship

To me, its not exactly Olimar's glaring weakness. Sure its potentially devastating, but as HeroXL stated already, the amount of times you DO end up below the stage and are forced to tether are maybe 1/10 times. Playing with my friends might have made me partially biased, but by varying up the way I recovered (either coming in high or barely hopping in with a fair) really made my friends a lot more aggressive edge guarding me. The result of them hopping out to attack me instead of merely sitting on the edge opens up more opportunities for mind games on how you recover.

It's all about how you deal with your opponents, just force them to do things the way you want them to by constantly being unpredictable.

 

[Sajun88]

Yeah I agree with the person that stated the weakness, every character has pros and cons, Wario has short range on attacks and short recover but some of the most amazing moves in the game. Olimar looks to have almost no cons besides that small recovery problem and the fact that with no pikmen he's useless. I'd say 2 cons are better than 3 or 4, so in the end I consider Olimar one of the best in the game. Just think of it this way, if you do your best not to get smashed to the left or right side then you won't have to worry about the recovery messing up.

 

[Rhyme]

It may be long enough, but the problem comes from how the Pikmin are aimed. It has to be aimed so that at least one Pikmin is on top of the ledge. If they're all under, the top Pikmin is blocked and can't grab the edge. Besides this, Olimar has a great recovering Up Special move, also great for attacking recovering opponents.

Are you saying that if you drape the pikmin chain across the edge that it will grab? That doesn't sound at all likely in the ways of Smash, but it sure sounds like that's what you just said.

Woops! >.>

Double post? What post?? Never happened!

You posted before now?

 

[Snake King 1]

every time a tether recovery is mentioned, a pikmin dies

 

[Joshua368]

Here's a very nice solution to this problem in action: watch at 1:32 in this video, and then again at 2:02.

 

[IllidR]

Here's a very nice solution to this problem in action: watch at 1:32 in this video, and then again at 2:02.

Of course that is the solution everybody has been proposing, but the problem is to pull it off it is very situational. You'll need to have that purple Pikmin, be able to switch it to the front by the time you near the ledge, and then hope to God they don't drop the ledge and grab on to use the invincibility frames to avoid that Pikmin.

Also at 2:02 in that video it's completely different, he threw a blew Pikmin on Metaknight which did nothing to dislodge him from the edge. The Metaknight just rolled on, he should have held his ground.

 

[IllidR]

Give me a double post and shame on me.

 

[IllidR]

Give me a triple post and shame on you, Smashboards.

 

[A2xA]

Is DI performed the same as it was in melee? If its a bigger difference in the game then I'm sure that could halfway solve the solution.

 

[kafke]

Here's a very nice solution to this problem in action: watch at 1:32 in this video, and then again at 2:02.

Echo got lucky around 3:15 almost didn't make it. At 2:02, the MK just rolled up to get the pikmin off. Shame on him. He should've stayed on. The pikmin chain is a horrible recover move T.T

 

[MasterCheeze]

Here's a very nice solution to this problem in action: watch at 1:32 in this video, and then again at 2:02.

Yeah, but only a Purple Pikmin got the job done. If you look at this video, his bad recovery is what cost him the match. Don't go for a meteor with Olimar! If you're stuck directly below the edge and your opponent's a greedy *******, you're screwed.

It's too bad Olimar's UpB doesn't latch onto the foe like Captain Falcon's. Really bad. =/

 

[kafke]

lol latching on the opponent would be funny XD

 

[kafke]

Edit: Sorry about the double post, my pc was going whack.

 

[icy_icicle]

Guys, really. Don't worry about it so much. I just played more Brawl today, and completely owned with Olimar. While his recovery is a little sub-par, his overall game is so good that it doesn't make too much of a difference.

 

[Joshua368]

Dang you guys are pessimistic, just tried to bring some good news that the main proposed strategy does work. (and at 2:02, I think the opponent rolled up to get away from the Pikmin, even if it wouldn't have knocked him off)

 

[Foxy_Marth]

If recovery wasn't a problem I think Olimar would be upper-top tier character due to the fact that a tier is a character played to its full potential

it's a pity shame.

 

[kafke]

Dang you guys are pessimistic, just tried to bring some good news that the main proposed strategy does work. (and at 2:02, I think the opponent rolled up to get away from the Pikmin, even if it wouldn't have knocked him off)

I thought i said that. Any ways, I don't think it will be much of a problem. Even if the opponent knows about it, Olimar is good enough to not get below the platform in the first place.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSePZe3KUnk

gimp killin da pikmanz

it is a problem absolutely, but a lot of characters aren't good at getting on the edge quickly

most characters cant ge there quick, and if they do get there they lose invinciblity
the fun thing about olimars tether as opposed to the other characters is that if he uses it while you aren't invincible (and you are at the right angle) he hits you and guarontee stage spikes you, meaning you both die, rather than just him.

 

[nyhustler208]

gimpy why did you close echoes thread ?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

it was an accident i meant to click stick lol

 

[errtu]

i just saw gimp completely destroying some poor olimar sucker, he even quit the match n started crying like a baby. it really is a shame cause i wanted to use olimar but unless some strategy comes up, olimar is just gonna do sh*t vs. that edge hogging technique. echo is pretty awesome with pikmin i think a lot better than that dsf guy , any thoughts man?

 

[nyhustler208]

it was an accident i meant to click stick lol

lol i no you did it by mistake

 

[Hitaku]

The more I play against Olimar the more amazing he seems to become. =P

In time Olimar will be amazing guys. No need to worry.

 

[Rhyme]

The more I play against Olimar the more amazing he seems to become. =P

In time Olimar will be amazing guys. No need to worry.

Lol, so now icy_icicle and myself sound more believable, eh? ; )

 

[TrueRedemption]

So I've resisted posting here for a while, as I still have yet to clock a single minute of brawl play, but for the sake of the discussion being continued I'm gonna point out what I've noticed, videos only.

Positioning: Watch http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c3qmrB4DUI0 Woker vs Anji (link). Notice how Woker ALMOST ALWAYS has his back to the center of the stage, and is most the time only hanging out in the middle area of the stage anyway. Obviously this is an advantage, but a particularly important one for Oli due to tether issues. Most importantly, and this was the biggest issue i saw in DSF vs Gimpy's posted match, when Anji moved in to challenge the middle positioning, Woker did not retreat, he made use of Oli's closer but still great range smashes and grabs. DSF landed something like 4 grabs, 3 smashs, and a weird dash attack or jab early in the match total on Gimpy, and most of this were in that middle section of the game where he was fighting back. Whether gimpy is just too fast to touch is not the complete issue though, what gimpy did that really beat DSF in my eyes was discourage that closer combat play all together, DSF commonly gives up middle positioning, retreating throwing pikmin or semi threatening spaced aerials. Take the middle, and most importantly once you've got it, Fight for it, if they come in smash/grab/dtilt->fair away (loved it when i saw it in the woker vid) and don't stop till the middle is yours again, if they want to camp on the outside thats great, Oli can play range all day, but he CAN'T give up the middle.

Ledge Guarding: This is still sortof part of positioning, but Olimer players must be careful in choosing when to edge guard, a lot of the positioning troubles I've seen in solid play come when ledge guarding situations get sticky, and suddenly Oli is taking some hits way out on the sides and forced to play recovery games.

DI: Its been mentioned, and I can't claim to have watched closely enough to be able to tell just how effective the DI is in each video, but as it was written above, olimer should DI up like a madman, its vital to survival. Oli isn't the best character in the world when above his opponent, but its better than keeping low and having to use a tether recovery. Also either I'm blind, or I have yet to see an olimer player use the air dodge increased DI yet, or at least not as fully as i expect it could be used.

DownB: I know I'm one of the weird ones about this, people with the game have explained its difficult to time and the super armor frames are so short that sometimes it can't fully absorb an attack's knockback, but I still see it as super armor isn't something there by accident, especially since they even mentioned Ike's on the dojo, I just have to feel theres something there. Ike has super armor, and as seen in the Ryan vs Andrew(ike) videoes at PkmnStadium Ike is also fairly gimpable. Maybe i'm giving sakurai too much credit, just at least until i can play the game and determine it hopeless myself, DownB super armor is like an itch i can't scratch especially as people mention Oli's poor recovery. Its like the turtle post far back, but less... turtle like? If you don't have to recover...

UpB: Last thing I promise. In some videos it seems the angle latched by the ledge is weird, I'm not sure the video hopefully i'll find it, but I believe I saw someone's UpB grab the stage while still considerably above it. In another video however a similar situation the UpB went up as an attack not auto aimed at all, despite the ledge being open. Now I can't remember the specific videos, so there could have been some differences in how far from the ledge they were, but just throwing it out there to people with the game, perhaps latch is to a small degree aimable like pit's arrow, UpB but like if your above the stage and press down it'll go to the ledge, keep the control stick up it'll go up. Maybe UpB favors targeting the ledge, but if you move the joystick right it'll default to the 45 degree. This would only matter if the 45 attack could first attack the ledge hogger and then, maybe if theres an extra pikmin than needed in length, also grab the ledge.


So anyway theres my two cents, can't say I didn't give your money's worth, just things to look focus on and look in to. Gimpy and Hitaku if your reading I really enjoy your guys input from non Oli points of view. I guess as closing Oli players lucky enough to have the game, if recovery is an issue see if you can't work on the positioning and DI details I tried to emphasize, I haven't seen a video yet that has accomplished both of those things completely yet in my eyes, although echo and dsf certainly do well with it most games, see their videos for more examples. We'll work through/around this shortcoming of Oli's yet.


-True

 

[UltimateLink]

Two things i have to say:

1.After you do one B-up, can you do another when you hit the person?

2.one way i always make it back is that i return quickly, i keep doing fairs so they get scared, then i d B-up to A really quickly, this seems to work for me all the time.

 

[nyhustler208]

yea if you grab the ledge or hit somebody you can do ur U-b three times as said in echos guid or in somebodies topic

 

[legendganon]

Or you could just throw a pikman at the ledgehogger grab on and recover.

 

[sly1080]

i managed to use Olimar's up B to hop up over my edgehogging opponent in some tourney play today, it was very satisfying, but i doubt it will work too often. though in an edgehogging situation i would just throw a purple at them, its probablt the only way to make it work in long recoveries. stupid pikmin chain, though it works great as a follow up to a Uair