KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
I've been playing Kirby since Melee where he wasn't great. But now in Brawl he awesome. But my question is there any down side for Brawl Kirby? Like, I know he light but what else is there he isn't so great at?
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Is there any negatives to Kirby?
- Thread starter KirbyandSonicrock14
- Start date
mysticwolf
Smash Journeyman
lightweight, he doesn't have very many powerful moves, he technically does not have a projectile, his throws aren't good, and he doesn't have very good defense. Other than that, he's perfect!!!
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Thanks, I was thinking the same thing as you man. But Sonic my real main, but the pinkman himself is stil cool enoguh to be a great back up character.
Dpete
Carnifex
Orly? Hammer/Aerial Hammer, F-Smash, Up-Smash, Stone, Bair, Dair Spikes, even Up-Throw and Down-Smash to an extent... sounds like plenty of powerful moves to me. Then you get the ability to copy other powerful kill moves.
And his throws are one of his strongest attributes. F-throw is an amazing combo tool, D-throw also gives you some nice combo options, and Up-Throw kills at higher percents. Sounds like a decent throw game to me...
I will agree with the lack of projectile and defensive game, though Kirby's moveset generally offers an aggressive playstyle where such things aren't needed. If you do need them, more then likely you can just copy them off of your opponent.
mysticwolf
Smash Journeyman
Okay I guess he does have powerful moves
But Dair Spike wtf are u talking about?
But Dair Spike wtf are u talking about?
When most hits of the dair hit, it's counted as a semi-spike, or a move that sends the opponent downwards at approximately the same speed as their fastfall. Not technically a spike, but it usually gets the job done.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
Actually every single hit spikes I believe. I recall situations where I have only gotten a hit off with the dair and it sent them quite a ways down. Also remember the distance it sends the opponent is based on their damage, however you can still get early kills (yay for 8% kill lol) by doing a dair into a footstool since if you fastfall the dair into them you will be right above them and when you jump it will footstool. Especially true on larger characters.
And what are you guys trying to refer to as defensive anyways? o.O I mean kirby is perfectly capable of stopping approaches with grabs and quick aerials? I could see how you would be saying that since he is lightweight he gets knocked around a lot after a certain point and it becomes hard to stay on the stage.
best defense is a good offense XD
Dpete
Carnifex
I think the biggest issue with Kirby is that he's not really bad at anything, but that he's not amazing at anything either. He just seems like a well rounded character doomed for Mid tier.
mysticwolf
Smash Journeyman
the only spike that really works is the Finall Cutter, and u have to be in an extremely lucky situation for that to work.
He has no disjointed hitboxes (though highish priority) and his range is only average as well.
Dpete
Carnifex
Actually, Hammer and Cutter are disjointed IIRC. Some people also argue that in his kick attacks his feet are also disjointed (F-smash, F-tilt, etc...). I do agree with him lacking range.
Dair definitely spikes, or "semi-spikes" I guess since I always hear there are no real spikes in Brawl. It is much less risky than Cutter.
Dair definitely spikes, or "semi-spikes" I guess since I always hear there are no real spikes in Brawl. It is much less risky than Cutter.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
All of kirbys bad matchups are essentially due to a lack of range on his attacks =/ lol
Marth, Rob, Snake
Also kirby moves slowly even though his attacks come out quickly.
Marth, Rob, Snake
Also kirby moves slowly even though his attacks come out quickly.
Oh yeah, I temporarily forgot about those in a lapse of judgment. Cutter is a useless attack (attack) unless you're really lucky and managed to spike with it (and even then it's just a suicide KO) and Hammer is godawfully slow.
His feet just have huge priority and possibly invincible parts. They're not disjointed.
Dair Meteor Smashes. A Semi-spike is something else entirely. Think Sheik's Fair.
Dpete
Carnifex
Ah okay. The definitions of all these downwards kill terms were always vague to me. Am I correct in thinking there are no true spikes in Brawl?
And to donaldo, Kirby's approach game isn't especially bad, but most of the time it seems limited to SH'd aerials, especially Bairs.
It still seems to me Kirby can do everything well to some extent, he just lacks that one great quality to move him up in the tier lists.
And to donaldo, Kirby's approach game isn't especially bad, but most of the time it seems limited to SH'd aerials, especially Bairs.
It still seems to me Kirby can do everything well to some extent, he just lacks that one great quality to move him up in the tier lists.
Aerial hammer is still one of his slowest moves.
Really? I thought spikes were meteor smashes that couldn't be canceled, and meteor smashes were all "spikes" in Brawl (thus making spike a useless term, right?) and semi-spikes were weaker than spikes but still sent the opponent downward, and Sheik's fair was just a horizontal-trajectory move.
If "term" was a verb, then I just got "termed"
What does disjointed hitbox mean? I've looked up a bunch of these terms, but I don't remember seeing that one.
And aerial hammer owns, as that guy a couple posts up said. It's very good if you use it rarely and unpredictably, and like he said, DI. And stuff. I almost always try to aim with the second swing.
Edit: woo I'm no longer a n00b >_>
Though I think I stopped being a n00b somewhere during smash 64...
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Does anyone ever try gettign all the hits with dair as a spike. It work for me when I do off the stage. Anyone else?
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
No guys yuna is right Aerial hammer is slow, but at the same time its so slow that if your opponent airdodges as if they were going to dodge one of your quicker aerials, the hammer will still hit them.
What also makes up for the slowness is being able to DI while using it, and the two swings gives kirby a lot of time to move while being dangerous. Also landing just as the second hitbox comes out mimizes lag.
But its still slow.
What also makes up for the slowness is being able to DI while using it, and the two swings gives kirby a lot of time to move while being dangerous. Also landing just as the second hitbox comes out mimizes lag.
But its still slow.
mysticwolf
Smash Journeyman
I see what y'all mean by "Diar Spike." You mean it looks like Falco's Spike, but it doesn't send the opponent down. Is that what you mean?
hmm, that's exactly what's good about it
People frequently do dodge, expecting a faster move, and they get hammered in the face. Kirby's side B in the air is probably my favorite change from melee to brawl...the melee one sucked so much :/With all due respect, that's completely wrong.
First off, Kirby's Dair is a meteor smash.
Secondly, a semi-spike is a move that sends the opponent in a downwards horizontal direction, such as Falcon's Knee.
Anyways, no disjointed hitbox and lack of a good projectile sucks. Also, Kirby lacks a diverse range of options to approach. Most the time its Bairs, which although this works well most the time, does get easily predicted.
No, the vast majority of Meteor Smashes can be canceled in Brawl. It was discovered a while ago why so many people kept failing at Meteor Canceling. It's just different now, but it's still there.
CompassTosser
Smash Apprentice
ya but because its slow your opponent will airdodge and avoid the first swing but after the animation they are vulnerable to the second. also it works as a great recovery method.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
Are you guys not reading the whole thing? You make it sound like you are disagreeing but then you repeat what I just said o.o I pointed out that if your opponent airdodges quickly the hammer will still hit them...hmm, that's exactly what's good about it
I am confused o.O
naw, I know exactly what you're saying. Most of Kirby's moves are pretty fast, which is why the slow hammer is so useful. If people try to dodge expecting a fast attack, sucks to be them. Unless they're on the ground and roll away.
Anyway, if you use it sparingly it's extremely good. What were we talking about again? >_>
Tomato Kirby
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Messages
- 582
I have a FAQ that addressed this...
I will give a quick list of cons:
Kirby is floaty=killed easily (although better DI)
Lack of good projectiles (Final Cutter is not good to spam)
Kirby is forced to approach (which is BAD in this game)
Specials are situational
Attacks tend to be short-ranged
Not much for disjointed hit-boxes (hammers are too short/slow and Final Cutter gets punished)
I will give a quick list of cons:
Kirby is floaty=killed easily (although better DI)
Lack of good projectiles (Final Cutter is not good to spam)
Kirby is forced to approach (which is BAD in this game)
Specials are situational
Attacks tend to be short-ranged
Not much for disjointed hit-boxes (hammers are too short/slow and Final Cutter gets punished)
Starwarrior27
Smash Apprentice
No character is perfect, but I think that Kirby is pretty close. I agree that he is lightweight, but he does have other downsides than just that. They are poor defence, technically no projectiles, weak attacks except the hammer and f-smash, which are usually expected, and that Kirbycides are harder to preform. I disagree about Kirby's grabs being bad, as they can form really great combos. They are bad for KOing, but that's what you have the hammer and f-smash for!
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
What about the up smash man? I do that more than the f-smash.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
kirby's improvements from melee to brawl include and are limited to
mediocre throw combos
speed buff
and then everything else is still crap. his b-air is meh, his u-tilt doesn't link to b-air and edgeguards anymore, and after that his smash attacks got buffed i guess but they're still somewhat slow (u-smash, f-smash) or weak (d-smash) and they're not disjointed so there's nothing mitigating those weaknesses.
the hammer's always sucked only now it's faster so it sucks faster (it's still slow). its range is crap, even if it's disjointed it's nothing remotely close to the range gaw, meta, snake, marth, etc have on like all their moves and it's laggier than most of theirs.
his bair is still good but again we come to the whole "no range" issue.
swallow gimps are mostly gone because of how incredible slow and awful the swallow is. its hitbox got shrunk and it's even slower than before. go kirby go.
cutter is still mediocre if we're being very, very nice to it. too laggy to spam, and it's range is mediocre on the whole.
kirby didn't really get many buffs. he's still low range, weak on his staple moves, and really lacks anything to make him shine above anyone. he's not the worst you could do in this game but he's certainly far from the best. very, very far from the best.
mediocre throw combos
speed buff
and then everything else is still crap. his b-air is meh, his u-tilt doesn't link to b-air and edgeguards anymore, and after that his smash attacks got buffed i guess but they're still somewhat slow (u-smash, f-smash) or weak (d-smash) and they're not disjointed so there's nothing mitigating those weaknesses.
the hammer's always sucked only now it's faster so it sucks faster (it's still slow). its range is crap, even if it's disjointed it's nothing remotely close to the range gaw, meta, snake, marth, etc have on like all their moves and it's laggier than most of theirs.
his bair is still good but again we come to the whole "no range" issue.
swallow gimps are mostly gone because of how incredible slow and awful the swallow is. its hitbox got shrunk and it's even slower than before. go kirby go.
cutter is still mediocre if we're being very, very nice to it. too laggy to spam, and it's range is mediocre on the whole.
kirby didn't really get many buffs. he's still low range, weak on his staple moves, and really lacks anything to make him shine above anyone. he's not the worst you could do in this game but he's certainly far from the best. very, very far from the best.
Other improvements include:
Better air movement.
Much better dash attack.
Better horizontal recovery.
Faster, better Final Cutter.
Aerial hammer has been buffed beyond reasonable doubt.
And can you really say his Bair is eh? Eh? It has decent range, good priority, has good damage and knockback.
And I fail to see how people think the hammer sucks. If you connect on the ground, you can easily kill <100%. In the air it allows for edgeguarding, recovery options, and non-Bair/Dair gimps. Sure, it's pretty slow on the ground, but time it well. That what other characters have to do, it's really not that hard.
Also, how would throw combos be mediocre. They take a good amount of the cast from 0-51%.
Better air movement.
Much better dash attack.
Better horizontal recovery.
Faster, better Final Cutter.
Aerial hammer has been buffed beyond reasonable doubt.
And can you really say his Bair is eh? Eh? It has decent range, good priority, has good damage and knockback.
And I fail to see how people think the hammer sucks. If you connect on the ground, you can easily kill <100%. In the air it allows for edgeguarding, recovery options, and non-Bair/Dair gimps. Sure, it's pretty slow on the ground, but time it well. That what other characters have to do, it's really not that hard.
Also, how would throw combos be mediocre. They take a good amount of the cast from 0-51%.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
hammer. it's slow as hell on the ground. and in the air. and still has no range. no amount of "mindgames" and "timing" will make it stop being a bad move. if you play against predictable people and they run into it sure i guess? but it's still slow and no range, so... yeah. even if you time it against half the cast unless they're trying to grab you their move will probably beat your hammer pretty easily unless they epic fail their spacing.
b-air has mediocre range, good priority, and decent knockback but since it's like his only really spammable move he loses a lot of power. especially since he has to approach if the other guy has any sort of spammable projectile which further ***** him.
his dash attack is like "LOLOLOL PUNISH ME FOR DOING THIS PLEASE" and while it is improved it's still mediocre. oh no 8% and i'm launched but you can't follow-through so w/e.
better air movement is universal but sure i guess?
his recovery is better i guess but when you die at 90 that's not as great as it sounds.
throw combos are mediocre because the good amount of the cast also tends to be the bad part of the cast for the most part. exceptions are there like falco i guess but your throw combos do like maybe 30 to meta? and maybe 40 to snake? meanwhile their safer, longer range moves are ****** you. yay.
b-air has mediocre range, good priority, and decent knockback but since it's like his only really spammable move he loses a lot of power. especially since he has to approach if the other guy has any sort of spammable projectile which further ***** him.
his dash attack is like "LOLOLOL PUNISH ME FOR DOING THIS PLEASE" and while it is improved it's still mediocre. oh no 8% and i'm launched but you can't follow-through so w/e.
better air movement is universal but sure i guess?
his recovery is better i guess but when you die at 90 that's not as great as it sounds.
throw combos are mediocre because the good amount of the cast also tends to be the bad part of the cast for the most part. exceptions are there like falco i guess but your throw combos do like maybe 30 to meta? and maybe 40 to snake? meanwhile their safer, longer range moves are ****** you. yay.
Dpete
Carnifex
He's exaggerating. Sure, hammer is slow, but it does kill very early, and range isn't that bad. If you want a faster kill move, use F-smash. It has good range, speed, and priority, though it has some lag. And I'll take throw combo's to 30%; after all, a lot CG's can be broken out of at that point...
Kirby is a very well-balanced character. Too bad to be great in this game you have to be broken.
Edit: Three pages in and no one has noted the terrible grammar in the title? Lolz.
Kirby is a very well-balanced character. Too bad to be great in this game you have to be broken.
Edit: Three pages in and no one has noted the terrible grammar in the title? Lolz.
Dyxnar14
Smash Apprentice
His Range and the fact that hes light
Kirby Magatsu
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2006
- Messages
- 315
Kirby haven't a Chain Grab, only this
just kidding, he is light and doesn't have a good projectile, without this, i can't see more negatives on him, it's because i'm a Kirby player since 64? xD
just kidding, he is light and doesn't have a good projectile, without this, i can't see more negatives on him, it's because i'm a Kirby player since 64? xD
Ever wonder how people land Bowser Fsmashes? It's because they can bait people into situations or find a good situation to use it. A good example of this would be a Falco recovering with Phantasm, not sweet spotting the edge. You set up the proper distance, hammer and you most likely get a KO if he's at decent %.
Seriously, do you have Melee dash attack and Brawl's mixed up? Melee's was easily punishable because there was pretty much no knockback. Brawl traps you in for most of the hits and then good players can't get out of the last hit. There's barely enough time to be punished, the Kirby has to be very slow to just sit there.
I'll say confidently that the only times I've died at 90% is from an Ike or Ganon. It's not that hard to play it safely once you get up in high percentages, and yes, we have light weight. That's why you adapt your play style at that point.
Okay, you have a point on MK. The throw combos don't do ---- against him. But on Snake, you've got to be joking me. He's one of the heavies that can be throw combo'd easily. You can pull off a full Gonzo combo or change the Fsmash to Fair/hammer if he jumps.