Is there a reason why Captian Falcon's grab in Smash 4 takes up half the stage?

[Daniel8697]

I feel like it's so hard to get around a Captain Falcon if you have no projectiles because he can grab from a ridiculous range and it's also difficult to tell whether he's doing a grab or a dash attack and you can't shield grab after the fact if he does do an attack because it goes past the shield. Just kind of venting because Captain Falcon is about 1/3 of my For Glory matchups and possibly more and I just find it ridiculous to avoid with out anything to really space.

 

[ZombieBran]

I just find it hilarious that under your thread is a thread entitled
"what to do when the oppoenet's in between grab and dash grab distance?"

 

[Gawain]

Because it's one of his only good options. Take it away from him and he'd be awful. He has so many weaknesses, learn them and exploit them. He's one of the only really balanced characters in the game.

 

[Fandangox]

Because it's one of his only good options. Take it away from him and he'd be awful. He has so many weaknesses, learn them and exploit them. He's one of the only really balanced characters in the game.

Basically this, if you take Falcon's dash grab he would have absolutely no approach game.

 

[Gawain]

Basically this, if you take Falcon's dash grab he would have absolutely no approach game.

Well he would, but it would literally JUST be bair and falling up air pretty much and he couldn't beat shields to save his life.

 

[Fandangox]

Well he would, but it would literally JUST be bair and falling up air pretty much and he couldn't beat shields to save his life.

Well yeah at that point he'd had no approach game.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

How do you beat Captain Falcon, I mean a good Captain Falcon? I fought that one used everything in his arsenal to beat, I only beat him once with Donkey Kong and I think it was him being cocky and giving me a win. Honestly, I'm frustrated with fighting Falcon and I like using him too but I need some serious help. I don't want any smart asses answering me so, anybody who mains him or knows a lot about Falcon's strengths and weaknesses please give me some advice. I main Fox, Link, Ganondorf and I'm learning Greninja

 

[Fandangox]

How do you beat Captain Falcon, I mean a good Captain Falcon? I fought that one used everything in his arsenal to beat, I only beat him once with Donkey Kong and I think it was him being cocky and giving me a win. Honestly, I'm frustrated with fighting Falcon and I like using him too but I need some serious help. I don't want any smart ***** answering me so, anybody who mains him or knows a lot about Falcon's strengths and weaknesses please give me some advice. I main Fox, Link, Ganondorf and I'm learning Greninja

Falcon is high risk high reward, essentially the character doesn't have a whole lot of trouble punishing anything, but he gets punished very easily too. Lots of his attacks hit strong and have good uses, but either leave him open or are not safe on block. Side smash has good range and killing power, but its not too fast to come out and has enough recovery frames to leave him open when whiffing it.

Another example, Falcon Kick, a good move to punish rolls and try a mix up approach, but once shielded it leaves falcon open. Dash attack is similar. His dash grab is really good, but if the opposite player sees it coming its very easy to counter.

Falcon's speed allows him to get in and get the punish quickly, but the player has to know what move to use and when, his approach game is very predictable so he relies on the opposite player making mistakes to get in. A crouching Kirby throwing out down tilts shuts down pretty much 4/5 of Falcon's approach options on Battlefield. (Maybe I am exaggerating, but yeah) So once you learn the Falcon's player pattern you should have an easier time.

Also Falcon has a lot of trouble getting into the stage, as his recovery is also poor. He gets edge-guarded very easily. Once you get Falcon off stage that's your opportunity to get the KO.

Falcon's Strengths:
*Fast Speed and Ground Mobility
*Mid-Heavy, hard to KO.
*Great KO power.
*Good follow ups.

Falcon's weaknesses:
*Fast faller, size, and weight make him very easy to combo.
*Very predictable approach game.
*Easily edge-guarded due to poor recovery.
*Lots of his killing moves require a read or are unsafe when whiffed.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Falcon is high risk high reward, essentially the character doesn't have a whole lot of trouble punishing anything, but he gets punished very easily too. Lots of his attacks hit strong and have good uses, but either leave him open or are not safe on block. Side smash has good range and killing power, but its not too fast to come out and has enough recovery frames to leave him open when whiffing it.

Another example, Falcon Kick, a good move to punish rolls and try a mix up approach, but once shielded it leaves falcon open. Dash attack is similar. His dash grab is really good, but if the opposite player sees it coming its very easy to counter.

Falcon's speed allows him to get in and get the punish quickly, but the player has to know what move to use and when, his approach game is very predictable so he relies on the opposite player making mistakes to get in. A crouching Kirby throwing out down tilts shuts down pretty much 4/5 of Falcon's approach options on Battlefield. (Maybe I am exaggerating, but yeah) So once you learn the Falcon's player pattern you should have an easier time.

Also Falcon has a lot of trouble getting into the stage, as his recovery is also poor. He gets edge-guarded very easily. Once you get Falcon off stage that's your opportunity to get the KO.

Falcon's Strengths:
*Fast Speed and Ground Mobility
*Mid-Heavy, hard to KO.
*Great KO power.
*Good follow ups.

Falcon's weaknesses:
*Fast faller, size, and weight make him very easy to combo.
*Very predictable approach game.
*Easily edge-guarded due to poor recovery.
*Lots of his killing moves require a read or are unsafe when whiffed.

So I shouldn't fight him head on, I need to bait him out but how could I bait out a really safe Falcon like I was fighting? I mean he used everything, most Falcons I fight just try to be stylish with a few moves and end up being reckless which isn't a problem because I can catch on to their plan. The one I fought was stylish but he was always safe, everytime I would go for the punish he was either far away or he could jab out. This will definitely help out next time I come across a good Falcon but I can't help but think that maybe my mains aren't good enough even after all the time I put into them and I'll need to learn a different character or work on my Falcon to even things up a bit.

 

[Fandangox]

What in particular were you having trouble with against that Falcon? What characters were you using and how was he approaching and dealing with your approaches?

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

What in particular were you having trouble with against that Falcon? What characters were you using and how was he approaching and dealing with your approaches?

He approaches a lot with dash grabs but I jump out of the way. He uses dash attack and I shield but he grabs me before I can punish. He's not afraid to go offstage because he kept spiking me into oblivion and I would try to gimp or just trick him off stage to no success, so I thought if I would stay on the stage and mix him up but that didn't work because it was back to square one with avoiding his approaches, finding an opening and getting in with Fox and Ganondorf. I tried using Link's grab to maybe get him in the middle of his dash attack and grab, then get some damage but again nothing worked. To top it all, he kept doing this string of aerials to finish with a knee. I figured if that was his main kill combo then I should stay grounded but then that leaves me with dealing his approaches. With Fox I can use his speed but since he has barely any kill options, it's difficult. Link's ranged attacks are good for mind games because that's what I always them for but against a speedy and competent Falcon, leaves me wide open. Ganondorf is slow and powerful but again Falcon's speed makes it hard to get good reads especially with the unpredictability that this Falcon had. He rarely used the special moves only Falcon kick to get around, Raptor Boost to get the kill and Falcon Punch to style on me for the kill. I rarely have a hard time with Falcon but this one was difficult to the point that I gave up for an hour or two and play online again because I like playing For Glory and winning with my characters even if they might not be high tier character. Maybe it was frustration that got me because I only beat him twice with Donkey Kong and Bowser but that was probably just luck not skill on my part.

 

[Fandangox]

Try to spot dodge the grab attack and punish, I think Fox's down smash should come out fast enough to punish falcon's dash grab if you spot dodge, although I am not really sure. Of the characters you listed they actually have the issue that they can't edgeguard Falcon very well, Link probably has the best options since you can mindgame him with bombs or bait out an airdodge with a projectile then attack him. If Falcon's dash attack doesn not go through your shield you can immediately grab, if he grabs you before you punish that means you are probably trying a hard punish, if you shield it either go for a grab or a quick jab instead.

Also Falcon shouldn't be spiking you wiht his down a so often, it requires a read to land, so I rethink your approach if you think you are becoming predictable.

Wish I could help more, but it just really sounds like this Captain Falcon was pretty good, maybe we can try playing some matches if you want some MU practice, although the other players here probably have a much better idea of how to deal with a good Falcon.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Try to spot dodge the grab attack and punish, I think Fox's down smash should come out fast enough to punish falcon's dash grab if you spot dodge, although I am not really sure. Of the characters you listed they actually have the issue that they can't edgeguard Falcon very well, Link probably has the best options since you can mindgame him with bombs or bait out an airdodge with a projectile then attack him. If Falcon's dash attack doesn not go through your shield you can immediately grab, if he grabs you before you punish that means you are probably trying a hard punish, if you shield it either go for a grab or a quick jab instead.

Also Falcon shouldn't be spiking you wiht his down a so often, it requires a read to land, so I rethink your approach if you think you are becoming predictable.

Wish I could help more, but it just really sounds like this Captain Falcon was pretty good, maybe we can try playing some matches if you want some MU practice, although the other players here probably have a much better idea of how to deal with a good Falcon.

Thanks, I have it on 3DS but I'm getting the Wii U soon. I'll put that advice to good use because honestly he was pretty good and there might be more like him. everybody gets salty about losing as bad as I did but it helps me get better in the long run, I main Fox out of loyalty but Ganondorf and Link are just because I want to prove that they're better than what people think they do. I could probably apply everything you told me to my Falcon. Thanks for the advice

 

[Fandangox]

I play both versions, so if you want we can try on the 3DS too.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

I play both versions, so if you want we can try on the 3DS too.

Ok cool, we can do some matches then. Almost everybody I know has the Wii U version so it's difficult finding matches without just doing 1 on 1 on For Glory

 

[Hanzo Hasachi]

At least it's less cheap than link's grab range

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

At least it's less cheap than link's grab range

Link's grab range is cheap, but it can punished easily. I throw a bomb out so it's easier to grab because they throw out shield, I could understand Link's grab range because it's a hookshot. If they do a pivot grab it comes out faster then a regular grab though

 

[Captain Farukon]

this kind of people is the reason why Falcon keep getting nerfed in every single patch...stop complaining , he`s the only good character in the game, go and complain about rosalina luma shield or bowser bomb crushing shields or even roy buffed sword range or any other character , leave falcon alone

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

this kind of people is the reason why Falcon keep getting nerfed in every single patch...stop complaining , he`s the only good character in the game, go and complain about rosalina luma shield or bowser bomb crushing shields or even roy buffed sword range or any other character , leave falcon alone

Nobody's saying to nerf him, we're just learning how to beat him. I'm applying all the stuff people told me to my Blood Falcon because I only play Captain Falcon with that skin

 

[Captain Farukon]

Nobody's saying to nerf him, we're just learning how to beat him. I'm applying all the stuff people told me to my Blood Falcon because I only play Captain Falcon with that skin

the other guy said C.falcon grab has ridiculous range and those kind of comments are the reason why he`s geting nerfed

 

[Fandangox]

the other guy said C.falcon grab has ridiculous range and those kind of comments are the reason why he`s geting nerfed

I highly doubt the dev team makes their balancing decision on forums posts around the net, or at least as their only reason. They probably look at the data of game matches and decide what to change. If they went by posts stuff like Dong Cyclone or Sheik's needles would have been change long ago.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

the other guy said C.falcon grab has ridiculous range and those kind of comments are the reason why he`s geting nerfed

Fox got nerfed because of his jab lock even though it's predictable as heck, so I know the feeling of having my main nerfed. Granted the jab lock was cheap but you know what people complain to complain if they don't want to put in effort to learn their character or even how to fight other characters

 

[TurboLink]

At least it's less cheap than link's grab range

Link's grab is no where near cheap.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Link's grab is no where near cheap.

It is to other players, I use Link myself and most of my damaging combos come from the grab. I do use all his projectiles to cover space. Arrows for horizontal coverage, boomerang for angled coverage and bombs are the wild cards lol. Link and Falcon are fine as is, so honestly there shouldn't be an issue

 

[Antonykun]

Take it away from him and he'd be awful.

I find that to be a ridiculous claim to make. No seriously Falcon's throw reward (just being able to even down throw up air) makes him far better than a good majority of the cast at dealing with shields even if his dash grab didn't have that frightening good slide. Add a regular dash grab to his amazing Dash Attack and ground speed and you get someone someone who can get away with a massive claim to advantage just because he has a strong answer to anything the opponent can do.

It's going to take some HUGE changes to make Falcon any less than a beast

 

[Gawain]

I find that to be a ridiculous claim to make. No seriously Falcon's throw reward (just being able to even down throw up air) makes him far better than a good majority of the cast at dealing with shields even if his dash grab didn't have that frightening good slide. Add a regular dash grab to his amazing Dash Attack and ground speed and you get someone someone who can get away with a massive claim to advantage just because he has a strong answer to anything the opponent can do.

It's going to take some HUGE changes to make Falcon any less than a beast

Hes already barely top 10 material, and to some he's even less than that. Falcon is balanced. He's one of the most balanced in the cast. Leave him alone, give others the ability to fight shield too. Asking to nerf Falcon is petty to be honest.

 

[link2702]

It is to other players, I use Link myself and most of my damaging combos come from the grab. I do use all his projectiles to cover space. Arrows for horizontal coverage, boomerang for angled coverage and bombs are the wild cards lol. Link and Falcon are fine as is, so honestly there shouldn't be an issue

link's grab range is perfectly fine. Its just as all tether grabs have been since the very beginning; they get the benefit of being far longer then typical grabs, at the massive sacrifice of having horrid end lag.

If a link misses his grab, you basically get a free punish on him. In fact this drawback is so huge, that sakurai even noticed it didn't make up for his extra range previously, which is why he slightly cut the ending frames on it so that link is't left *AS* vulnerable.


again, all tether grabs have the benefit of having long range, at the cost of having horrid end lag. Link's throws also aren't as devastating as you make em out to be. His primary throw is down throw which at lower damages can be true-comboed, but more often then not, the followups you get from it will be by reads on your opponent. His forward and back throw's are meh, and his up throw usually only kills at really high damages, and/or if link has high damage and thus rage.

but eh this is about falcon and not link, and to answer the op's question;

falcon you forget, also has the drawback of having his dash grab slightly delayed, specifically, it doesn't come out till after he's taken that huge lunge forward, this can often mean you'll zip right past your opponent attempting to grab them, because you were too close when you started the dash grab.

Sure that huge jump forward has benefits of increasing his range greatly with his grab, but its also easy to miss it if you were too close to your opponent when starting the dash grab, something most other characters don't have to worry about with their grabs.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

link's grab range is perfectly fine. Its just as all tether grabs have been since the very beginning; they get the benefit of being far longer then typical grabs, at the massive sacrifice of having horrid end lag.

If a link misses his grab, you basically get a free punish on him. In fact this drawback is so huge, that sakurai even noticed it didn't make up for his extra range previously, which is why he slightly cut the ending frames on it so that link is't left *AS* vulnerable.


again, all tether grabs have the benefit of having long range, at the cost of having horrid end lag. Link's throws also aren't as devastating as you make em out to be. His primary throw is down throw which at lower damages can be true-comboed, but more often then not, the followups you get from it will be by reads on your opponent. His forward and back throw's are meh, and his up throw usually only kills at really high damages, and/or if link has high damage and thus rage.

but eh this is about falcon and not link, and to answer the op's question;

falcon you forget, also has the drawback of having his dash grab slightly delayed, specifically, it doesn't come out till after he's taken that huge lunge forward, this can often mean you'll zip right past your opponent attempting to grab them, because you were too close when you started the dash grab.

Sure that huge jump forward has benefits of increasing his range greatly with his grab, but its also easy to miss it if you were too close to your opponent when starting the dash grab, something most other characters don't have to worry about with their grabs.

That's what I've been saying, that's why i use the projectiles to make sure the grab connects. I'm saying that his grab is good for damaging combos, I'm not saying it's the best but it is very useful for racking damage so let's just get that straight. I'm not the one complaining about Link tell it to the guy who said it was cheap in the first place, to other people it would be cheap but that's their problem if they keep getting caught in it. Now this is a Falcon thread not a Link thread so let's stop talking about Link

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Aside from the side tracking about Link, this thread really has helped me play a more efficient Falcon. I may not the best Falcon but one step at a time right. His dash grab is good but I need to mix it up more so I'm not predictable because that's the issue other than that he seems balanced and with some more practice I can get better with him

 

[ZombieBran]

Falcon may not be top tier, but his dash grab and reward off grabs is too good for him to be considered balanced.
He needs some smoothing out; buff the underwhelming aspects of him in return so his design is not so lopsided and reliant on his grab.

This is never happening this game so I'll just cry when I have to fight boost grabber Falcon with Zelda.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Falcon may not be top tier, but his dash grab and reward off grabs is too good for him to be considered balanced.
He needs some smoothing out; buff the underwhelming aspects of him in return so his design is not so lopsided and reliant on his grab.

This is never happening this game so I'll just cry when I have to fight boost grabber Falcon with Zelda.

Use Nayru's love as a get off me move, that interrupts grabs and if Falcon doesn't get hit. He'll need to think twice before approaching. He's fine as is, Zelda can handle him but you have to play smart and make the Falcon player do unsafe to stuff so you can punish

 

[Captain Farukon]

I highly doubt the dev team makes their balancing decision on forums posts around the net, or at least as their only reason. They probably look at the data of game matches and decide what to change. If they went by posts stuff like Dong Cyclone or Sheik's needles would have been change long ago.

To be honest it seems the dev team of this game are a bunch of idiots who dont ve even the slightest idea of what is balance in a fighting game...just check how they buffed almost every character recovery move or options (like fox and falco being able to use their recovery after using illusion and phantom) except Mario and Captain Falcon , Mario recovery is quick yes but very stiff and ****ty in some stages and Falcon dive no longer has super armor...
as and off side note.....why is samus more powerful without her suit it makes no sense...it just plain stupid

 

[Captain Farukon]

Falcon may not be top tier, but his dash grab and reward off grabs is too good for him to be considered balanced.
He needs some smoothing out; buff the underwhelming aspects of him in return so his design is not so lopsided and reliant on his grab.

This is never happening this game so I'll just cry when I have to fight boost grabber Falcon with Zelda.

Now that you mention it, yesterday i fought a couple of Zelda and hehehe all they do was spam nayru love and forward smash to keep me from grabbing them but Falcon speed and a little of patience pass through those attacks easily although i recieved some minor dmg from Nayru´s love but the rest of the fight was uair fest and then meteor them with dair

 

[ZombieBran]

Nayru's is not the best option against Falcon. His ground speed means he can easily bait it out. He can punish a whiffed Nayru's from like anywhere on the stage. Basically, we take a big risk using it against him to try to punish his dash grabs.

 

[Captain Farukon]

Nayru's is not the best option against Falcon. His ground speed means he can easily bait it out. He can punish a whiffed Nayru's from like anywhere on the stage. Basically, we take a big risk using it against him to try to punish his dash grabs.

Indeed, btw one of the few things that still manage to get me out of balance is that zelda´s recovery can hit you...i always forget that also i seem to misread the range of her dash attack either way i like to fight against her, i quickly get sick of so many falcon dittoes, little mac´s and Roy´s

 

[Captain Farukon]

Hes already barely top 10 material, and to some he's even less than that. Falcon is balanced. He's one of the most balanced in the cast. Leave him alone, give others the ability to fight shield too. Asking to nerf Falcon is petty to be honest.

im scared Gawain...i feel Falcon is getting another ****ing nerf because of so many guys crying "he´s so hard i cant beat him with my cheap ass character please sakurai nerf him boo boo boo"

 

[Gawain]

im scared Gawain...i feel Falcon is getting another ****ing nerf because of so many guys crying "he´s so hard i cant beat him with my cheap *** character please sakurai nerf him boo boo boo"

Well, the nerfs so far have been pretty inconsequential, even if they were really unjustified. If they leave his frame data alone he will remain pretty good. I don't think there is much to worry about.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Nayru's is not the best option against Falcon. His ground speed means he can easily bait it out. He can punish a whiffed Nayru's from like anywhere on the stage. Basically, we take a big risk using it against him to try to punish his dash grabs.

It's not the best but it is an option, Farore's wind is another one. Dins Fire could be used for spacing but with start up Falcon is already there unless you just short range it but even then maybe not a good idea.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

im scared Gawain...i feel Falcon is getting another ****ing nerf because of so many guys crying "he´s so hard i cant beat him with my cheap *** character please sakurai nerf him boo boo boo"

Nobody saying is to nerf him, don't worry. They nerfed my main and I'm still going strong with him. If they do, heaven forbid because I like Captain Falcon I'll probably still play him just to show he kicks ass despite being nerfed

 

[Fandangox]

To be honest it seems the dev team of this game are a bunch of idiots who dont ve even the slightest idea of what is balance in a fighting game...just check how they buffed almost every character recovery move or options (like fox and falco being able to use their recovery after using illusion and phantom) except Mario and Captain Falcon , Mario recovery is quick yes but very stiff and ****ty in some stages and Falcon dive no longer has super armor...
as and off side note.....why is samus more powerful without her suit it makes no sense...it just plain stupid

Falcon having a poor recovery on this game makes sense, its one of the ways to balance him since he has good frame date, weight and killing power.

Fox adn Falco being able to recovery after illusion also makes sense, their recovery would be hilariously awful if it werent for that, its pretty bad already.