Is the Smash series mechanically stagnant? (as in core gameplay, not extra modes)

[Sean²]

Ultimate just feels dry there's nothing to shake up a match like tripping, attacks having lag to them for personality or flair or any fun wacky modes you can't even use custom stage in custom smash let alone zoom in. Competitive play makes everything so "efficient" all actions need to be faster attacks, running, taking damage, falling, taunts, and victory themes sucking the fun out of the game.

I think you're in the minority lamenting the loss of tripping.

 

[Ice-N-Space]

I think you're in the minority lamenting the loss of tripping.

It sounds like your problem is with competitive play, not with the game mechanics themselves.

Both of you have miss the meaning of my post completely.

 

[lucasla]

I accept the lack of something really inovative by the fact that we first needed a Smash game in high definition. I know the WiiU game was already that, but the WiiU failed, and also this new game fixed the problems of the WiiU game and added tons of content, so it has a pass, this time. I would give another pass if a new game at least had a decent online, but I support some game changing mechanic, like Brawl did adding final smashes.

 

[Quillion]

I wasn't calling things like air dodge tweaking and ledge trumping drastic though. I was specifically talking about things like customs or Spirits.

The argument has always been that customs or spirits were never really tailored for competitive play and I find that to be a very irrelevant point. Afterall, the smash series was never made to be a competitive game. It was our community that made it competitive and Spirits are same way. If you're expecting something drastic akin to an official version of wave-dashing, then Spirits are your best bet. They literally fit your criteria.

Touché. I suppose I can't see them as really breaking the series' stagnation because both are or seem to be doomed to be yet another one-time gimmick a la sailing in Wind Waker or wolf transformation in Twilight Princess. Moreover, customization in both forms feel like tweaking existing actions rather than adding a real mechanic. This is my main gripe with Smash 4 custom moves, as it mainly changes moves in very generic ways instead of having entirely different moves, though I understand that a full-on implementation of that idea probably wouldn't fit within deadlines.

 

[ProfPeanut]

If it was stagnant right now, people would have been bored of it already.

I don't know if it will never reach stagnancy - it certainly might - but the core gameplay loop still holds, all things considered. There's examples of games out there that haven't gotten stale despite years without any updates to its core gameplay (look at Team Fortress 2, look at Puyo Puyo, look at Melee, look at real-life sports), and just because they're outnumbered by the examples of games that did become stale doesn't mean that stagnancy is inevitable without intervention.

Sometimes, the big ancient update is all that the game needed.

 

[Sean²]

Both of you have miss the meaning of my post completely.

Care to explain a bit more then?

Your wording wasn't exactly super easy to read. Sounds to me like you don't like the game being generally faster with the removal of unnecessary slowdowns and RNG that were present in Brawl and Smash 4. If anything, the game has increased viability of different attacks with the overall reduction in endlag, even for casual play. Using any of DK's kit in Brawl beyond back air was basically a death sentence, which made DK a fairly terrible character in retrospect. The whole "slow jumpsquat" thing was pointless and just made already bad characters worse than they needed to be.

Maybe you should define your idea of what's fun?

 

[Quillion]

If it was stagnant right now, people would have been bored of it already.

I don't know if it will never reach stagnancy - it certainly might - but the core gameplay loop still holds, all things considered. There's examples of games out there that haven't gotten stale despite years without any updates to its core gameplay (look at Team Fortress 2, look at Puyo Puyo, look at Melee, look at real-life sports), and just because they're outnumbered by the examples of games that did become stale doesn't mean that stagnancy is inevitable without intervention.

Sometimes, the big ancient update is all that the game needed.

Well, I'm not all the way to being bored with Smash, but I think the process is starting for me.

That said, I don't think I've never seen anyone claim that certain series/games have more leeway in being "stagnant" than others. It's actually a thought I have but have been afraid to share it. What would you say makes certain series/games like Puyo Puyo or Smash better as being traditional while Pokémon, Zelda prior to BotW, or Dynasty Warriors need to evolve?

 

[Ice-N-Space]

Care to explain a bit more then?

Your wording wasn't exactly super easy to read. Sounds to me like you don't like the game being generally faster with the removal of unnecessary slowdowns and RNG that were present in Brawl and Smash 4. If anything, the game has increased viability of different attacks with the overall reduction in endlag, even for casual play. Using any of DK's kit in Brawl beyond back air was basically a death sentence, which made DK a fairly terrible character in retrospect. The whole "slow jumpsquat" thing was pointless and just made already bad characters worse than they needed to be.

Maybe you should define your idea of what's fun?

That's what I mean calling added animation for attacks in Brawl & Smash Wii U unnecessary now with attacks having so little lag to them it makes the game less about thinking and more about spam.

 

[Xelrog]

Pokemon hasn't evolved any more than Smash has. They just take the same exact formula every few years and slap a couple extra features on it, some QoL polish.

Mega evolutions? Final smashes. Totem battles? Spirit mode. Battle Tree? EVERYONE IS HERE.

 

[Quillion]

Pokemon hasn't evolved any more than Smash has. They just take the same exact formula every few years and slap a couple extra features on it, some QoL polish.

Mega evolutions? Final smashes. Totem battles? Spirit mode. Battle Tree? EVERYONE IS HERE.

Hence why I asked: why is Smash better off staying where it is where Pokémon needs to "evolve"?

 

[Xelrog]

Hence why I asked: why is Smash better off staying where it is where Pokémon needs to "evolve"?

Who said Pokemon needs to evolve?

 

[Quillion]

Who said Pokemon needs to evolve?

Just a sample:

• These people
• This person
• This person
• This person
• And this person

Call it a vocal minority if you will, but you can't deny that it's very widespread and too significant to ignore.

 

[Aurane]

Who said Pokemon needs to evolve?

They don't.

But some are deserving.

Ones who... ****ing had a planned evolution to begin with.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I do think Smash has almost hit the ceiling a bit with this game and I hope the next game introduces something fresh to the table. A change in gameplay mechanics is sometimes needed to differentiate your latest game from previous entries and prevent it from being a derivative copy. It has to be a change for the better of course, something like tripping is an example of a terrible change that was universally hated because it relied on the concept of randomness and luck, which is something that you cannot accurately predict and train with.
I don't agree with the idea that a complete reboot is needed, but I do believe that the next game should lessen the fat and optimize it's core mechanics instead.

 

[Quillion]

I don't agree with the idea that a complete reboot is needed, but I do believe that the next game should lessen the fat and optimize it's core mechanics instead.

Yeah, I have to admit that Smash 4 and Ultimate's customization feels like "fat" to me, as it doesn't add anything meaningful and functional.

A new movement option or new move type alone would do wonders for the core gameplay.

 

[Xelrog]

I loved the customization in 4 and used custom moves and abilities with friends very regularly. Unfortunately I seem to be the only one, though...

 

[Just a random scrub]

I loved the customization in 4 and used custom moves and abilities with friends very regularly. Unfortunately I seem to be the only one, though...

No, I liked that **** too. Custom moves were a great concept. (Except for unlocking them. I still don't have every custom move.)

 

[Quillion]

No, I liked that **** too. Custom moves were a great concept. (Except for unlocking them. I still don't have every custom move.)

I like the concept, too, but only the concept. Unlocking was only the secondary problem, what we should have gotten were Palutena/Mii customs for all/most characters.

Customs should be used to incorporate more references to source material, not just generically changing existing moves.

 

[Xelrog]

Customs should be used to incorporate more references to source material, not just generically changing existing moves.

That's simply expecting too much. The fact that they were property tweaks and not completely new animations was what made them feasible additions, and with 80 characters, that would be even more true if they were to come back.

But if we're talking about unrealistic expectations, I think it would be amazing to be able to load most any movement from most any character onto a Mii. I'm thinking Emerl from Sonic Battle. It was such a cool idea that sadly went to waste on the game it was in. Hell, I think a fighting game with that degree of customization--where there are no default characters, and every character is totally custom built--would have a ton of potential. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Quillion]

That's simply expecting too much. The fact that they were property tweaks and not completely new animations was what made them feasible additions, and with 80 characters, that would be even more true if they were to come back.

I'm aware that it would be unrealistic. That's why I think it would have been better for a stripped-down roster rather than ~70 characters.

On the other hand, I think just one more universal movement option or one new move type would be much easier to work with.

 

[Luigifan18]

That's simply expecting too much. The fact that they were property tweaks and not completely new animations was what made them feasible additions, and with 80 characters, that would be even more true if they were to come back.

But if we're talking about unrealistic expectations, I think it would be amazing to be able to load most any movement from most any character onto a Mii. I'm thinking Emerl from Sonic Battle. It was such a cool idea that sadly went to waste on the game it was in. Hell, I think a fighting game with that degree of customization--where there are no default characters, and every character is totally custom built--would have a ton of potential. But maybe that's just me.

You just literally described MUGEN.

 

[Sean²]

Yeah, you can play as Ronald McDonald and Big Bird and stuff. It's great.

 

[Xelrog]

No, I didn't. You need to design or assign/adapt sprites for MUGEN characters, which is a very manual and time-intensive process. There's no comparison between that and copying the animations between 3D character models. Completely different process.

 

[Quillion]

No, I didn't. You need to design or assign/adapt sprites for MUGEN characters, which is a very manual and time-intensive process. There's no comparison between that and copying the animations between 3D character models. Completely different process.

Well, in the Melee engine, swapping animations apparently works for everyone without the models distorting to the rigging. That's gotta count for something.

You just literally described MUGEN.

We're sorely in need of a MUGEN/Smash engine that anyone can easily develop for.

 

[Xelrog]

Well, in the Melee engine, swapping animations apparently works for everyone without the models distorting to the rigging. That's gotta count for something.

Yes, that would be what I was talking about.

 

[Deleted member]

I was always a proponent of custom moves, and I feel like I'm one of the few who believed in their potential. I agree that they were implemented half-heartedly, though. But I tell you what, a fighting game with a 70+ character roster each with several custom moves would certainly help things not get stagnant.

Besides being fun for players to experiment and find the combination of moves they prefer, it would keep opponents on their toes. Oh well. I guess they've gone the way of double dash karts too. All the best ideas get scrapped. :/

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's not stagnant. It happens to infrequently to really become stagnant.

But new ideas can't hurt.

I thought of a few new mechanics like say.... giving every character a special attack they could use out of a dodge roll would make things nice.

For real though, I think people are ignoring that we aren't anywhere near Ultimate's skill cap. Once people start perfecting parrying, we're gonna have a very different game.

 

[Xelrog]

I guess they've gone the way of double dash karts too. All the best ideas get scrapped. :/

Remember the one Mario Kart game we got snaking in? -_-

 

[Manonymous]

Smash 64 : 3 specials
Melee : 4 specials, airdodges, more grabs, tether recovery.
Brawl : footstool, trip, more flottey, (walljump ?)
Sm4sh : Faster, dodge is better, more gimmicky characters (I like it !).
Ultimate : One airdodge, short hop easier, kill screen.

 

[Quillion]

It's not stagnant. It happens to infrequently to really become stagnant.

Mainline Zelda games release infrequently, and that didn't stop the TP-SS stretch of games from being stagnant.

Smash 64 : 3 specials
Melee : 4 specials, airdodges, more grabs, tether recovery.
Brawl : footstool, trip, more flottey, (walljump ?)
Sm4sh : Faster, dodge is better, more gimmicky characters (I like it !).
Ultimate : One airdodge, short hop easier, kill screen.

Again, I don't see any of those things beyond Melee as major mechanical additions or alterations.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Both of you have miss the meaning of my post completely.

To be fair, the original post doesn't make much sense. If there was a meaning behind it, it wasn't well delivered and eluded as all. Like, what does it mean that running, attacking, taunting, taking damage and victory screens take away the fun from the game? And how does attacks having lag add "personality" to them?



Also, I think people are overrating the two driver mechanic from Double Dash. Having one person driving the kart and the other one shooting items made for an interesting dynamic for sure, but it wasn't something that couldn't be accomplished by one player. Choosing two characters also gave you access to two unique items, but in hindsight, the unique items weren't a good idea because it created a power creep between characters. There was little reason to choose someone with a mediocre item like DK and Diddy over someone with an awesome one like the babies. I still enjoyed the feature, but I can see why they got rid of it. They took some of the item concepts and gave them to everyone rather than limiting it to just a couple of characters, like how the Chain Chomp item pretty much became the Bullet Bill.
I personally feel that stuff like anti-gravity tracks added more to the gameplay without detrimenting it.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, I think people are overrating the two driver mechanic from Double Dash. Having one person driving the kart and the other one shooting items made for an interesting dynamic for sure, but it wasn't something that couldn't be accomplished by one player. Choosing two characters also gave you access to two unique items, but in hindsight, the unique items weren't a good idea because it created a power creep between characters. There was little reason to choose someone with a mediocre item like DK and Diddy over someone with an awesome one like the babies. I still enjoyed the feature, but I can see why they got rid of it. They took some of the item concepts and gave them to everyone rather than limiting it to just a couple of characters, like how the Chain Chomp item pretty much became the Bullet Bill.
I personally feel that stuff like anti-gravity tracks added more to the gameplay without detrimenting it.

Oh wow, you completely convinced me that your opinion is better than mine! I guess I should rethink what I find enjoyable....

Just kidding, Double Dash will always be my favorite Mario Kart game. Good attempt though. A for effort and everything.

 

[Quillion]

Oh wow, you completely convinced me that your opinion is better than mine! I guess I should rethink what I find enjoyable....

Just kidding, Double Dash will always be my favorite Mario Kart game. Good attempt though. A for effort and everything.

Double Dash is my favorite on controls alone, but even I think the special item concept wasn't done all to well. Also, it still has a pro-lightweight imbalance.

If the two-driver concept should come back, it should only affect kart weight and nothing else.

 

[Ice-N-Space]

To be fair, the original post doesn't make much sense. If there was a meaning behind it, it wasn't well delivered and eluded as all. Like, what does it mean that running, attacking, taunting, taking damage and victory screens take away the fun from the game? And how does attacks having lag add "personality" to them?

That isn't fair as my original post did make sense. Things like running, attacking and taunting got chopped or removed so if you were a fan of one those things it will lead to disappointment and attacks having more lag means more time for animation.

If you don't understand something its best to ask for a explanation instead of guessing incorrectly.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Also, I think people are overrating the two driver mechanic from Double Dash. Having one person driving the kart and the other one shooting items made for an interesting dynamic for sure, but it wasn't something that couldn't be accomplished by one player. Choosing two characters also gave you access to two unique items, but in hindsight, the unique items weren't a good idea because it created a power creep between characters. There was little reason to choose someone with a mediocre item like DK and Diddy over someone with an awesome one like the babies. I still enjoyed the feature, but I can see why they got rid of it. They took some of the item concepts and gave them to everyone rather than limiting it to just a couple of characters, like how the Chain Chomp item pretty much became the Bullet Bill.
I personally feel that stuff like anti-gravity tracks added more to the gameplay without detrimenting it.

I would say Double Dash was defiantly the black sheep of the bunch. It was daring and tried a lot of new things. Some were good. I'm glad for Mario Kart Double Dash because features that are for the better of the franchise may have never made it into future Mario Kart games without this installment. I would say that the ability to choose any kart regardless of character was a great addition. It eventually evolved into being able to choose the wheels and the glider which is even better. All cup tour was a great way to test the player's overall skill. I do wish it would return to future Mario Kart installments, but I can understand why it was removed (Retro Cups and DLC Cups). The additions of Shine Thief and Bob-omb Blast as separate battle modes had me and my friends playing for hours by the way, and we were having a literal blast with the additions coming back to Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.

That being said though, it's still the black sheep installment. Some of the new mechanics weren't for the better which hurt the game a little bit. The concept of double racers is nice on paper, but it creates a power struggle. For one, me and my friends are super competitive players no matter what the game is. We all figured out who the heavyweights were and pretty much all wanted to play them. Unfortunately, there were only three starter ones. Donkey Kong, Bowser, and Wario. Even if everyone only took one heavyweight, it still wasn't enough for everyone to get what they wanted. Also, for the groups of people who prefer lightweights, there were only eight in the game, and two were unlockable. Everyone would have to take two light weights, and that might not be enough to guarentee everyone gets what they want. On top of that, characters had special items. This not only unnecessarily limited the heavyweight class to taking a character with at least one of three items as well as the lightweight class to five out of those nine items entirely, but this created a power struggle over who can get to the best special items first. Every person in the room wanted that damn Bowser Shell so much so that we had to ban the Bowser and Bowser Jr combination over this. Nobody wanted to get stuck with Donkey Kong if they even got a heavyweight kart at all. For obvious reasons, when I inevitably unlocked Petey Piranha and King Boo, all hell broke loose in the bickering over who will get to take one of those two every time we played.

Don't get me wrong. We need these types of games to exist. Double Dash tried a lot of new things, and while not all were good, it set a positive precedent for future games. Coming back around to the original thread at hand, I don't think Smash Bros has truly seen any Double Dash like game yet. Most games that came after Smash Melee barely changed anything significant, and the ones that could be big changes (such as Custom Moves or Final Smash Meter) were togglable features and got ignored by everyone completely. The last time Nintendo really tried to make a game vastly different than its predecessors, it got ignored and was nearly completely forgotten about for that reason. I still have nostalgia from playing Smash Brawl, but it really wasn't a step in the right direction. It seems to me like Smash Bros hasn't been going anywhere in terms of new ways of innovating the fighting.

Side question. How did this turn into a conversation primarily about Mario Kart Double Dash?

 

[Deleted member]

All of the complaints I'm hearing about Double Dash were exactly the things I loved. I loved the combinations you could have between karts, characters, weights, and special abilities. If any of these options gave you an edge, then you're forgetting that items serve to level the playing field, so it doesn't really matter. You just pick whatever combination suits your fancy and do some kart racing.

Also, the mechanic where two players each control a character on one kart was fantastic fun and a different type of teamwork (plus the character in back could do a devastating sliding punch to steal items or course-correct). It was a huge leap from Mario Kart 64, tied in thematically with Mario Sunshine which was neat, introduced some new staple characters, and yes the battle modes provided hours and hours of fun. As with all games on the Gamecube, its lower install base means there are objectively fewer fans of those games, which is an unfortunate bias. But for me that game was the peak of Mario Kart.

 

[Xelrog]

I loved the combinations you could have between karts, characters, weights, and special abilities.

I also enjoyed all these things. The two people in one kart was clunky and ill-executed, however, in my opinion. It would be a neat novelty for an extra optional type of race, but not a core game mechanic that can't be turned off.

I would quite like a Smash Ultimate for Mario Kart--an attempt to bring back all the good features of each game... I mean a really serious effort by Nintendo to understand what people actually did and didn't like, unlike what they usually put in for fans. Ultimate was a breath of fresh air, a level of community consideration we really don't ever get from Nintendo. Character-specific items (people liked it in Super Mario Party), snaking, different vehicles, snaking, I guess the transformation stuff could stay... etc.

 

[Quillion]

I also enjoyed all these things. The two people in one kart was clunky and ill-executed, however, in my opinion. It would be a neat novelty for an extra optional type of race, but not a core game mechanic that can't be turned off.

I would quite like a Smash Ultimate for Mario Kart--an attempt to bring back all the good features of each game... I mean a really serious effort by Nintendo to understand what people actually did and didn't like, unlike what they usually put in for fans. Ultimate was a breath of fresh air, a level of community consideration we really don't ever get from Nintendo. Character-specific items (people liked it in Super Mario Party), snaking, different vehicles, snaking, I guess the transformation stuff could stay... etc.

Remember, Ultimate isn't exactly an attempt an attempt to bring back all of the "good features", just all of the characters. Ultimate didn't bring back wavedashing or L-cancelling, but came up with adequate substitutes of the two techniques. It sacrificed a bunch of things to make it possible.

On another note, I don't understand why people want a big one-time shake-up on the level of Double Dash. I'd personally just love to add one more action type so that it could be a permanent fixture of the series from that point forward. No one-time gimmicks as an excuse for innovation like Pokémon likes to do.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Oh wow, you completely convinced me that your opinion is better than mine! I guess I should rethink what I find enjoyable....

Just kidding, Double Dash will always be my favorite Mario Kart game. Good attempt though. A for effort and everything.

Thanks, little man. I did put effort into it, so I'm glad you noticed.

That isn't fair as my original post did make sense. Things like running, attacking and taunting got chopped or removed so if you were a fan of one those things it will lead to disappointment and attacks having more lag means more time for animation.

If you don't understand something its best to ask for a explanation instead of guessing incorrectly.

So what do you mean then? I still don't understand.

Having more lag on your attacks means that your character is committed to a longer ending animation for sure, but how is this a positive thing? That makes you more open for getting punished. Ganondorf got less landing lag in his aerials which makes him act much faster and thus makes him more efficient and fun to use.

 

[Quillion]

So I had this discussion on Reddit about a month ago over "gimmicks" in Nintendo sequels. People seem to agree that Nintendo makes an effort to make each sequel different from both past and future installments, but things like gravity and FLUDD in Mario and the three-day loop and motion controls in Zelda are unique features, while things like Mega Evolution and Dynamax in Pokémon are gimmicks. The former informs many aspects of design and are incredibly fleshed out, while the latter isn't very fleshed out and feels dumped by the next installment.

Double0Groove talked about things like customs and spirits as "gameplay changes", but TheTrueBrawler is right in saying that changes like these are togglable and ignorable. That's why I think things like customs and spirits can be classified as "gimmicks". Yeah, they seemed big during their time, but the games aren't really built around them at all and they seem like wasted ideas at best. In fact, because they're togglable, I'd say that they're even worse than Mega Evolution and Z-Moves; at least Pokémon's gimmicks were additions to core gameplay, even though they were optional.

Honestly, Smash's relatively recent gimmickry is the reason why I feel tired of the series as a whole, which is affecting my ability to go back to Ultimate. It really feels like Pokémon's recent gimmickry.