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Is Olimar too powerful?

Kiki52

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
418
Do you think that Olimar is too overpowered? I saw some Youtube videos where he fights against Lucas, against Diddy, against ROB, against basically anyone and it seems like whenever Olimar is there Olimar almost always damages the other guy more than he gets damaged. Olimar seems to win a lot too, the only way he dies is when he is unlucky enough to not be able to recover when he falls off the stage but that doesn't happen often because often Olimar damages the opponent so much the opponent just dies.

Do you think that Olimar might be too overpowered despite his very risky recovery move? It seems like in the Youtube videos the only way to win against a good Olimar player is luck, even if they're playing against anyone else the same skill level.
 

Helios42

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
27
One thing I have noticed about brawl is that

The characters are, for the most part, even. I think that EVERY character has a large chance to win against any other. So, I believe that olimar has huge potential, but so does everyone else. I say, don't worry, Olimar is just as good as any other character. Remember, damage doesn't kill in SSBB, to quote Sakuri.
 

ROFLs

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
31
No, because with that power comes a great strategy. You NEED pikmin to fight. Now getting this opportunity to pick more is slight, the first few seconds of the match is were you get you arsenal ready, but it won't last you an entire match. All characters were made even, just some people are getting good with Olimar already, and others are suffering. :p
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Of course in a Oli favored forum you'll be hard pressed to get solid answers, even more so because only a small percent of people have been lucky enough to even play it. I believe we have no idea who is strong and who isn't, for the first few months the people who put the time in, have an open mind, and embrace their character will do well. Plenty of nuances of Oli haven't been worked out yet and you still see good results, because many players haven't been able to drop all their SSBM habits yet. With a weird new character like Oli its easier to do so, less to relate back to the old game. Odds are at first most of the new characters unlike any old ones will seem good because people won't try and use them like SSBM. So perhaps Oli is overpowered, we certainly don't know yet and probably won't be able to say that for a long time still, but thats my two cents as to why he looks so good now.


-True
 

LarkOhiya

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
185
Location
Niles, MI
If Pikmin didn't have a tether recovery I would say YES! without question. he is very small (near the smallest if not THE smallest fighter in the game. and all his attacks are high priority with no lag...and have you SEEN the damage even one of his hits put out let alone his easy combos and pikmin throw? His size and misleading range alone gives him a node for top teir. And his grab range is long AND low to no after lag on a wiff.

Again the short range of his tether and ease of hogging the edge is his only downfall.
 

IllidR

Smash Champion
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Jul 24, 2007
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"Pikmen" Forever!
His recovery pretty much balances him out. Sure he has great attacking potential and is good at racking up damage by throwing the opponent, but this is only if the opponent is not careful, so he is nothing too overpowered.
 

kafke

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
94
His recovery pretty much balances him out. Sure he has great attacking potential and is good at racking up damage by throwing the opponent, but this is only if the opponent is not careful, so he is nothing too overpowered.
I agree, And his recover is lacking, which balances him out.
 

S2

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We'll have to see when people get good at the game.


From what I've played, Olimar is VERY GOOD. He can dish out damage very quickly, especially if you play him as a keepaway character.

That being said, his recovery is terrible and its very prominent which attacks of his are his KO attacks.

Playing against Olimar is going to have its own strats.
 

ConeZone

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
619
Location
Salem
i dont think he is, it seems he takes a lot of skill and patience to use, and he is a difficult character to maintain, because he relies on his pikmin, and without them he is virtually useless...if used right though can be a deadly character
 

davemg

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
20
Im just curious to play oli's strange moveset, does anyone know which of his moves will be good KO attacks?
 

sly1080

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
10
i just won as olimar in a tournament, i didnt find his recovery much of a problem, because you can pikmin throw to eliminate the edge guarder, and also, its not as necessary to land on the ledge, because you can airdodge right through your opponent's attack, not to mention whistle's super frames. his attacks have amazing range, especially his Fsmash, which has more than pikachus. his aerials are awesome, and his Uair has multiple strong hits. purples are very useful, but only if you allow them to be expendable, because they have low range and WILL get smashed. pikmin throw is useful, basically a distraction, because your enemies dont want that small damage, and will distract themselves to get them off. its great, and Usmash is h4x strong, but very tight hitbox
 

S2

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Im just curious to play oli's strange moveset, does anyone know which of his moves will be good KO attacks?
I've played him and his biggest KOers are his d-smash (sends pikmin on both sides of him at Melee range) and f-smash (throws a pikmin that does knockback instead of grabbing on).

The D-Smash pretty much always does good knockback. The F-smash is situational. Different pikmin are better for different things. Your F-smash will be a KO move if you send out a red/yellow/purple pikmin and it connects. The blue are a little less powerful and the white ones do very little knockback (however, they do poison damage if you use them with your Side-B).

Olimar up-smash also does massive knockback and has big priority, but its harder to kill people off the top.

One of his air attacks (I think b-air, but it might be f-air) is also pretty powerful, but I'd have to doublecheck. And I didn't use his tilt's much, but one of them might be powerful.

Keep in mind that his pikmin effect the power of the attack and how far he throws them. So using a white pikmin for a KO attack doesn't work too well. Its hard to keep track of the order you pluck them.


You can play Olimar as a keepaway character. He plucks pikmin ultra fast and can dish out tons of damage via side B (where he throws a Pikmin on someone). You can throw pikmin on an opponent, run away, and let the pikmin do a ton of damage as you retreat.

Olimar certianly does not suck at all. If you know what your doing, he's very fun and useful. But yeah, his recovery is a weak point. And without pikmin he's not powerful - and he does have to get close to get the actual KO.
 

nyhustler208

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 6, 2007
Messages
212
I've played him and his biggest KOers are his d-smash (sends pikmin on both sides of him at Melee range) and f-smash (throws a pikmin that does knockback instead of grabbing on).

The D-Smash pretty much always does good knockback. The F-smash is situational. Different pikmin are better for different things. Your F-smash will be a KO move if you send out a red/yellow/purple pikmin and it connects. The blue are a little less powerful and the white ones do very little knockback (however, they do poison damage if you use them with your Side-B).

Olimar up-smash also does massive knockback and has big priority, but its harder to kill people off the top.

One of his air attacks (I think b-air, but it might be f-air) is also pretty powerful, but I'd have to doublecheck. And I didn't use his tilt's much, but one of them might be powerful.

Keep in mind that his pikmin effect the power of the attack and how far he throws them. So using a white pikmin for a KO attack doesn't work too well. Its hard to keep track of the order you pluck them.


You can play Olimar as a keepaway character. He plucks pikmin ultra fast and can dish out tons of damage via side B (where he throws a Pikmin on someone). You can throw pikmin on an opponent, run away, and let the pikmin do a ton of damage as you retreat.

Olimar certianly does not suck at all. If you know what your doing, he's very fun and useful. But yeah, his recovery is a weak point. And without pikmin he's not powerful - and he does have to get close to get the actual KO.
throwing pikmin and running away is the worst idea EVER b/c its EXTREMLY easy to knock off the pikmin. If anything a better idea would be to throw pikmin on the opponet and then while they attack the air trying to take off the pikmin grab/attack, but a better thing to do is to grab b/c when the pikmin is latched on the opponet and you grab they are going to take dmg while your grabing them so that would make the pikmin do there full latch dmg :).

and i think echo or textbook said when you grab your opponet that has a pikmin on them, they cant escape the grab until the pikmin thats lached on to them falls off, so if this is true you can grab attack while the pikmin is also doing latch dmg.

if anything i thnk throwing pikmin is going to be a distraction to our opponets, causing us Olimar users to do an attack on the wildly swinging opponet
 

S2

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throwing pikmin and running away is the worst idea EVER b/c its EXTREMLY easy to knock off the pikmin. If anything a better idea would be to throw pikmin on the opponet and then while they attack the air trying to take off the pikmin grab/attack, but a better thing to do is to grab b/c when the pikmin is latched on the opponet and you grab they are going to take dmg while your grabing them so that would make the pikmin do there full latch dmg :).

and i think echo or textbook said when you grab your opponet that has a pikmin on them, they cant escape the grab until the pikmin thats lached on to them falls off, so if this is true you can grab attack while the pikmin is also doing latch dmg.

if anything i thnk throwing pikmin is going to be a distraction to our opponets, causing us Olimar users to do an attack on the wildly swinging opponet
Throwing and retreating is not the worst idea ever. I've used it in matches and it works very well.

No, you do not get the full damage of every pikmin this way, but that's not the point. The point is that you rack up damage without taking any yourself. Plus if you get a white pikmin on your opponent, they'll also start taking poison damage.

Its basically the equivalent of Falco laser spamming in Melee. Your racking up damage and running away at low percents so that when you go in for close combat your more likely to KO the opponent.

Olimar also plucks pikmin so quickly that they are basically disposable. Its not about racking up the full damage of each side-B, your spamming pikmin as a shield as the opponent tries to catch you. Which they will try to do because your barraging them with Pikmin non-stop, only running when they go in for attacks.

This also works in your favor because it forces an opponent to play aggressively. Which works very much in Olimar's Favor because he can wait for opponents to jump into his high-priority smash attacks that hit around him (b/c they're pikmin).

That being said, grabbing an opponent after a side B is very smart. But you can't overuse it or the opponent is going to expect a grab. Like any grab, if your opponent expects it then they are going to counter with a regular attack. Since Olimar himself is weak and has a terrible recovery, you don't really want to stick your neck out with him.
 

nyhustler208

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
212
ok i agree with what your saying but i was trying to say that throwing and then attacking is a better way to go then just running away. but since you explained what your saying more propably i absolutly agree with you now :)
 

errtu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
129
no he is not. his recovery sucks. which is fine cause that keeps things balanced.
 

PyroRyuken

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Nov 16, 2007
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Throwing and retreating is not the worst idea ever. I've used it in matches and it works very well.

No, you do not get the full damage of every pikmin this way, but that's not the point. The point is that you rack up damage without taking any yourself. Plus if you get a white pikmin on your opponent, they'll also start taking poison damage.

Its basically the equivalent of Falco laser spamming in Melee. Your racking up damage and running away at low percents so that when you go in for close combat your more likely to KO the opponent.

Olimar also plucks pikmin so quickly that they are basically disposable. Its not about racking up the full damage of each side-B, your spamming pikmin as a shield as the opponent tries to catch you. Which they will try to do because your barraging them with Pikmin non-stop, only running when they go in for attacks.

This also works in your favor because it forces an opponent to play aggressively. Which works very much in Olimar's Favor because he can wait for opponents to jump into his high-priority smash attacks that hit around him (b/c they're pikmin).

That being said, grabbing an opponent after a side B is very smart. But you can't overuse it or the opponent is going to expect a grab. Like any grab, if your opponent expects it then they are going to counter with a regular attack. Since Olimar himself is weak and has a terrible recovery, you don't really want to stick your neck out with him.
Pretty much. Any character has some kind of flaw that makes him balanced of they are really good in another aspect. Thats one of the reasons I like Brawl so much.
 

S2

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Yeah, I wasn't trying to disagree with anyone on the throwing thing. That's a great tactic. Just defending that playing keepaway works (to an extent).

The real flaw in the keepaway tactic is that some characters can easily knock your pikmin away before they latch on (From what I noticed) in vids, no one seemed to do this all too much that I played against. Characters can hit an incoming pikmin and kill it, making someone like Marth a pain because he'll try and kill every pikmin you throw at him with his decent sword range.

I like to think of this similarly to how in Melee, a good player could simply knock away Peach's turnips or catch them without getting hit (and certain other projectiles).

Of course, this is a double-edge sword, since Olimar can throw pikmin to block enemy attacks as well.
 

TrueRedemption

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I didn't main peach, she was my second character though, and have to completely agree with the analogy S2 made to her turnips, hoping the same ideas will work. In a high level game peach still used turnips, although they rarely directly caused damage to the opponent. Why? Cause turnips were a tool of all important spacing and mind games, they required attention and response of the opponent, even if the response was as little as staying still so the turnip thrown will miss them. That means that peach held in her hand the ability to force a decision from her opponent, how to deal with the turnip. If it meant moving, peach could anticipate them moving, and plan accordingly. Likewise if they shielded, that was knowledge, same as if they caught it, but then you knew you had to respond to it, but they couldn't do any normal A moves till thrown. In a sense it allowed the peach player to create a decision, and by using the opponents response to it she could follow it up with the advantage. This has been too theoretical, so take a simple example. One of the first easiest ways to win with peach is to jump, throw the turnip, and then dash after it. As the player shielded or moved or caught or whatever, a simple dash attack could usually punish their decision, or at least a grab. If you don't believe me try it out.

Will thrown pikmin fill the same role? I don't know yet, for the most part it seems they move too quickly to be used in the exact same way, not to mention i don't have the game and don't really know the amount of lag Oli has to know if hes fast enough to follow up like that. But i do see alternatives in the same idea. If you manage to latch someone, they have to decide what to do about it, take the damage, or attack/roll to lose it, effectively the same way peach forces a reaction with turnips. Until I have brawl in my hands though, I have no way of knowing how well Olimer is suited to make/take advantage of such instances, not to mention i have no doubt advanced techniques will pop up that will help speed/linking moves. So I don't expect pikmin thrown with SideB to be so much a staple for damage as a method to create an advantage for Olimer.


-True
 

TrueRedemption

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Mar 26, 2007
Messages
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Quick little thing about balancing though thats irking me, its not as simple as one plus, one minus, especially in a game this complex. To say that the tether recovery is making up for characters otherwise strong is silly. It must be on a much much deeper level than that, for example:
Falcon punch, very strong/damaging, something players have learned to avoid from learning the hard way. How much did you see falcon punch honestly used though? Its easy to say: "Its so strong, so to balance it they made it slow." But thats silly, cause they made it too slow to use in most circumstances. The real balancing is in more than that, its in that falcon has enough other fast/combo capable moves to account for not being able to use falcon punch.

Now think of Olimer, to say that his strong moves are balanced by the lack of recovery is a tad much, since no character can be too effective without recovery. For a character to be gimped that hard on recovery completely would imply that they would be a super strong heavy character. Yes olimer has good moves, as echo makes look easy in his vids, but olimer is also pretty easy to knock around, and by no means are his moves unstoppable. I know this rant has gotten long, but I guess my point is rather than justify olimers weak recovery as a tax you have to pay for something your not even fully getting, figure out the puzzle of balancing that the programmers have given us. Imagine marth's SSBM recovery without the SideB, it would suck comparable to Olimers now. Including SideB helped tremendously, and made him a much more playable character. So what is it about Olimer's recovery that we haven't seen yet? I'm not saying hes gonna have a recovery as good as pit or MK or kirby, but i really doubt they spent this much time/effort on the game to have tether recovery characters, or even just olimer, unable to be played seriously due to recovery.

/end rant


-True
 

nyhustler208

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Nov 6, 2007
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I didn't main peach, she was my second character though, and have to completely agree with the analogy S2 made to her turnips, hoping the same ideas will work. In a high level game peach still used turnips, although they rarely directly caused damage to the opponent. Why? Cause turnips were a tool of all important spacing and mind games, they required attention and response of the opponent, even if the response was as little as staying still so the turnip thrown will miss them. That means that peach held in her hand the ability to force a decision from her opponent, how to deal with the turnip. If it meant moving, peach could anticipate them moving, and plan accordingly. Likewise if they shielded, that was knowledge, same as if they caught it, but then you knew you had to respond to it, but they couldn't do any normal A moves till thrown. In a sense it allowed the peach player to create a decision, and by using the opponents response to it she could follow it up with the advantage. This has been too theoretical, so take a simple example. One of the first easiest ways to win with peach is to jump, throw the turnip, and then dash after it. As the player shielded or moved or caught or whatever, a simple dash attack could usually punish their decision, or at least a grab. If you don't believe me try it out.

Will thrown pikmin fill the same role? I don't know yet, for the most part it seems they move too quickly to be used in the exact same way, not to mention i don't have the game and don't really know the amount of lag Oli has to know if hes fast enough to follow up like that. But i do see alternatives in the same idea. If you manage to latch someone, they have to decide what to do about it, take the damage, or attack/roll to lose it, effectively the same way peach forces a reaction with turnips. Until I have brawl in my hands though, I have no way of knowing how well Olimer is suited to make/take advantage of such instances, not to mention i have no doubt advanced techniques will pop up that will help speed/linking moves. So I don't expect pikmin thrown with SideB to be so much a staple for damage as a method to create an advantage for Olimer.


-True
very nicely said totally agrees
 

sprodj

Smash Rookie
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Feb 2, 2008
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The basic problem with olimar is this:
Because he has a lot of crazy attacks, etc. and a glaring weakness, people are going to start developing strategies to knock olimar only a little way off the stage, and just edgehog him to his doom.
Anti- someone strategies have been developed before- think space animal slayer
 

DrakeFreedom

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Feb 7, 2008
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I think most people have the right idea. Olimar is powerful but has poor recovery so eventually when players get more skilled at brawl it will be a big problem for olimar players, but for now he's wrecking those vids i've seen XD
 

Rhyme

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but for now
Sakurai said:
Captain Olimar is among the most specialized characters within the cast of Smash Brothers Brawl.
You'd think Olimar would be a character who takes time to truely master, not a n00b favorite.

S2: Spamming and running isn't going to work. For that strat, you'd either need a stunning projectile (Falco SHL spam) or above average manuverabillity and speed to avoid enemy attack (Fox SHDL) - Olimar has neither.
 

kafke

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You'd think Olimar would be a character who takes time to truely master, not a n00b favorite.

S2: Spamming and running isn't going to work. For that strat, you'd either need a stunning projectile (Falco SHL spam) or above average manuverabillity and speed to avoid enemy attack (Fox SHDL) - Olimar has neither.
I think the Spamming and Running will only work some of the time. It is almost like peaches turnips, You can't rely on them, but you use them to your advantage with mindgames and such.
 

Textbook Ninja

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Tossing your piks for dmg is probably one of your strongest moves as olimar, however I find myself only wanting to throw purples to fill in combo gaps or to knock your opponent back to attach another. They ARE extremely easy to knock off vs certain characters and even killable with one swipe from powerful characters forcing you to waste a few seconds plucking more. Honestly, use the move, but wisely. Do it when they are recovering, do it when they get knocked back, time it in between sets of attacks. Dont spam it, thats bad - ends up costing you time, not your opponent.

Pertaining more to the topic of the thread however...

Oli is powerful, but there are a lot more powerful characters in brawl, the videos you see are people that main him most probably and know when and how to use his attacks given their play style which seems "OP", when in all reality it could just be a skill difference between the players. Ive had countless matches against TOO many other characters where olimars arials and ground attacks are simply... over prioratized. Try doing oli vs sonic or diddy match ups, its nasty, theres so much thought and timing that you have to put in to those because most of the time your opponents attacks blasts right through your pikmin and **** you. So I guess... in a nutshell... Its the person behind the driving wheel so to speak... brawl was very well balanced in so many different aspects it would be silly to go over them all in this topic. Oli has weaknesses and strengths, advantages and disadvantages but in the end - makes sense.
 

.kR0

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The only major advantage I see in Olimar is that he's one of the smallest characters in the game.
Olimar and his pikmins are good. His height makes other characters bad because it limits the moves they can use against him.
 

Fautor Animus

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Feb 6, 2008
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37
No, because with that power comes a great strategy. You NEED pikmin to fight. Now getting this opportunity to pick more is slight, the first few seconds of the match is were you get you arsenal ready, but it won't last you an entire match. All characters were made even, just some people are getting good with Olimar already, and others are suffering. :p
picking pikmin isnt a problem, he can gather all six in about the same time as a falcon punch takes, which is 1.2 secs. Mindgames is what makes olimar shine. He's a bit too powerful in some cases, but what balances him out is his somewhat strict learning curve, almost as harsh as yoshi in ssbm.
 

Milk

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True that Olimar does have a bit of an advantage in range ( going off topic: "Man its been f*** long since I've log on the baords lol) I noticed (I'm sure people have gone over this) that his dair is a spike, I'm not sure if it changes with different color pikimin but once as I was trying to recover on the new final d level and the computer was trying to edge hog my tether recovery I hit him just before he grabbed the edge with the tether recovery and it spiked him, at the end of was the red pikmin not sure if it makes a difference but ya. It seems Olimar is powerful but most of his smash attacks can be delt with with simple attacks judging that their pikmin hes throwing. I'm learning more from him, every day, I love playing him ^_^
 

TrueRedemption

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Mar 26, 2007
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DAir is not only pikmin specific but also requires hitting your opponent with the sweet spot of the move, otherwise it'll have a more horizontal knockback.

Fautor Animus, do you have any proposed mind games you can so generally point to as the solution? Also I'm not quiet sure your SSBM Yoshi comparison is solid. I agree yoshi is a weird one to learn, but I don't feel yoshi is too powerful in some cases.

Balance is a tricky thing, especially in a game with so many different characters/moves/properties/possibilities. However I don't believe difficulty to learn falls into the broad category of "Aspects that maintain Balance." If it did, then not only in smash, but in all competative games, you would see only one real option, the character who took the most time to learn and was given advantages for that reason, because once learned that character would naturally have fewer weaknesses than the rest.

(Read the following if your interested in why no character is harder to learn than another)
Moreover, To absolutely know any character inside and out is a collection of so much information it balances out all learning curves. Slight differences in "more complex" characters or even just moves (like marths uptilt can spike in the right position but fox's only hits in one spot quickly with priority) is a very tiny % compared to the overall.
For instance say if knowing Mario absolutely through and through gave you a standard we'll call 100 learned character units (lcu). Someone comes and says oh mario is so simple i learned Ness he is so more complex, you can laugh at him, because hes bragging for nothing. To absolutely know Ness all the way compared to mario's 100 lcu, Ness would be about 100.01 lcu. Every character has the same number of moves, same number of characteristics such as weight, and same number of possible situations to be in. While their moves offer slightly different "levels of complexity", it doesn't amount to anything but the smallest fraction, and that slight fraction plays no outcome on the game. Differences in knowledge between opponents of their character (cause no one knows 100%), as well as each players ability to adapt, read patterns, and stay focused all determine the winner long before any level of character complexity plays a part.



So, back on topic at last. Is our beloved Oli too powerful for his own good, or at least this game. Fact is, we don't know yet. Too few people have the game, and have experienced only tiny amounts of the possible situations so far, and have only used some of the options available to respond to the situations. For instance, recently theres been an overall interest growing in a type of aerial lag cancel dependent on the timing of certain moves, allowing for less land lag and faster action/play. Olimar doesn't have bad landing lag, but as far as I know (until I can test myself or get someone reliable to do it this week) Olimar does not have aerials that can do this. If for some reason it becomes a huge factor in game play and performance, Olimar isn't going to be too powerful at all. People are noticing that non obvious techniques are so far character specific, not game specific. Another example is our discovery of Olimar's whistle armor. No one else can do that, but will it be useful enough to overcome the specific strong techniques other characters have?

In light of this though, Olimar does show a strong potential. He doesn't have simply useless moves, things like falcon punch that are simply too slow/awkward to ever use. Having more viable moves gives olimar more potential options, one of which may in some way, whether obvious or not, be able to overcome some challenge he is presented with. Also he has the strength in ranged attacks, not speaking of projectiles but large hit boxes. Marth from SSBM shows us how much an impact that can make when used correctly. However we are all also familiar with olimar's recovery weakness. Some characters may develop a two hit combo that along with an edge guard, kill olimar every time. If so, who is going to figure out if any of olimar's moves are able to overcome this? Who knows if he even has a way to overcome this? Only time will tell.

So far I have only approached this scientifically, breaking down general aspects of the game to show what is important, a examples of what benefits or troubles olimar may have as this game develops. As far as opinions go though, I am a Marth main with a secondary Peach. I came into the smash competative community far too late to ever be famous or win tournaments, but I was at least able to start truly developing an understanding of fighting games in general. I enjoyed marth for his range, you could hit someone further away than they could hit you, and I valued that characteristic. I also learned to greatly value the importance of situation and familiarity. I learned and played peach because her timing, floatiness, and moves are all drastically different than the normal fox falco sheik marth CFalcon stereotype. I would use this to put other players out of their familiar settings, where they had to think about things because they are different against peach than most other characters. In Brawl I fully plan on maining Olimar. Why? Because he efficiently combines both the range and unfamiliar aspects I value. Is that enough to make him a strong character? Or does mixing the two come short of overemphasizing one of the traits? We'll see.


-True
 

Fautor Animus

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37
What i meant by the yoshi comparison (and i'm sorry, the wording may not have been clear) was only with the learning curve, not the power of his moves, or the character itself. I agree that we do not know how powerful every character, and that this is all speculation.
There are many mind games, many used in SSBM. You can adapt them to olimar, and there you go, there are some mindgames. Then, in a competetive match, is someone going to watch the exact motion Olimar is using when he throws out a pikimin? I personally think not, their first thought will be, holy jehosophat, a pikimin, let me me shield, get out of the way, or in other words, let me stop doing what I was doing. While they think it's an f-smash, it could just be a latch, and voila! Either they expect knock back, which doesn't occur, or they block, and their movement is stopped enough for you to start popping them up, f-smashing them from point blank, rearrange, etc. And another idea, is randomly shove a whistle into the works. They'll see lights, and be wary, or they will assume that you shifted for some higher purpose, and possibly be stuck on what you may try to be doing with that new color of pikmin. There are many possibilites, but the power, in the end is decided by how well the player uses the character.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
=) I think you underestimate how seriously people take this game. They'll certainly know a latch from a smash, probably nearly as quickly as you input the command. And if they see an open whistle, they'll really see the window of opportunity that Olimar has neither super armor nor any chance to block an attack, and hit you then as hard as they can, long before they'd even consider worrying about what rearranging your pikmin could mean. I know these are just quick suggestions made up, and i'm sure there are some, but they are going to develop more like "Last time he grabbed me he threw me backwards and ledge guarded, I'll DI accordingly" and the Olimar player having set this up could then throw him forward instead and use that DI to hit with an Fair into another grab (textbook combo, just for an example). Then comes the guessing game again which way are you going to throw...

Mind Games function on making your opponent commit to something first, giving you the option to take advantage of it. Any mind game you commit first on is actually not a mind game, and by good players is gonna get you destroyed. Alternatively, any action you make suggesting you committed first, such as dashing forwards or a badly spaced smash you know won't hit but you also know they can't hit you in time is a Bait. Commonly considered a mind game, the difference here is you don't actually commit, because they are unable to do anything to you in that window.

Eg: Dash Dancing in SSBM, although taken out in Brawl, involved quickly dashing back and forth at the very edge of a characters range so they just barely were too far away to be hit by any attack of the opponent. The mind game created was this, at any time the player could in fact rush all the way in, testing the reaction time of the opponent, and make an attack. To prevent this, when the opponent expected/reacted to being pressured, he would attack or dodge or whatever option the opponent wanted to deal with the attacking player (these options led to more mindgames, but i'll keep it simple). However, if the opponent made this move at a time the player was not actually running in to attack, the opponent was punished by the lag frames of his ill timed response, giving the dashing play a window to run in and attack the opponent (who had committed) free of any danger from the opponent.

Your last part about how good the character is depends on the player is absolute truth. This thread though we are wondering if Olimar has some advantage that allows worse players to use him and beat better players, just because they picked Olimar.


-True
 

Fautor Animus

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37
Uhm... two things: 1) Yes, they were kinda thought of on the spot, but not everyone is good at this game, you can definitely mess up on whether it's a latch or not, when it's hurtling towards you. And two: Dash Dancing still exists in brawl.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
=/ Fautor man I'm really not trying to hold things against you, just sorta correct what I thinks wrong and offer thoughts on what is unknown, but I hoped it wouldn't have to be every post. Yes, on the smallest scale imaginable dash dancing is still in, but they have changed the way dashing works in Brawl. They have greatly reduced the number of startup animation dash frames, leaving you with a dash dance so small you cannot in fact avoid an attack if your opponent approaches any. If they do, you try and keep your distance, but that small extra step puts you into a slide you can no longer quickly turn and continue dashing. (For more General Brawl Mechanics as well as character specific techs, see these two threads from general brawl discussion. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=140981 and http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142139 )

Please hang around and learn the community and the game some before spamming posts all over the place, especially when your posting flat out incorrect stuff. I love that your thinking and posting about Olimar, you use explanations and supports to actually express things usually rather than just leaving a sentence without any reason for why it is. However right now your just not showing you know a little about the game, but aren't quite there yet. Worst of all people who see your posts and don't know better could very well get wrong impressions from it. So chill out a little, enjoy the community, feel free to contribute, but do so by asking questions until you really are familiar enough with the game to give full complete answers. I'm sure your probably gonna take this the wrong way, we've been back and forth all day, but I really don't mean to have this be personal or anything.


-True
 

Fautor Animus

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37
Do not worry, i understand. I've just been speculating, and have just been wanting to inspire people to go out and say "Hey he's right.", or "No, that's wrong." Mainly because i see things like Kirks's guide, and don't want Olimar to be left in the dust. Olimar is mah boi, and so you can probably see why i might start doing things like that. I've said before, i don't have the game, but i do have my opinions, and I do understand the changes between Brawl and melee. While i may be new to the site, i'm not new to the game. Also, from all the vids i've seen, i would say some of my claims are completely justified. One thing i don't understand about smashboards is how many people seem to think that they can say an opinion is wrong.
 
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