Is Lucario Top Tier in Ultimate?

[chaos_Leader]

Still early in the metagame for true concrete advice, but I personally feel like I caught on very quickly to how Lucario plays now. Most of the Smash4 specialties (asc combos and the like) still function, but in a more limited capacity. ASC-Usmash has much stricter timing and positioning. You have to be more judicious and aware of recovery (no more vague UpB toward the stage for truly ridiculous recovery).

New viable techniques.
Dthrow is a very reliable starter for Fair combos.
Force Palm flame feels like it has a broader hitbox and quicker frame data, and can be used for mid range spacing.
Double Team counter is fast. it comes out fast, the reaction hit is fast, and it covers a fair bit of distance. Timed well, I find it can be used to cut through zoning pretty effectively. Careful using in the air though. More than once I've Double Team flung myself off the stage, and gotten myself in trouble with the more limited recovery.

 

[Ajani]

Still early in the metagame for true concrete advice, but I personally feel like I caught on very quickly to how Lucario plays now. Most of the Smash4 specialties (asc combos and the like) still function, but in a more limited capacity. ASC-Usmash has much stricter timing and positioning. You have to be more judicious and aware of recovery (no more vague UpB toward the stage for truly ridiculous recovery).

New viable techniques.
Dthrow is a very reliable starter for Fair combos.
Force Palm flame feels like it has a broader hitbox and quicker frame data, and can be used for mid range spacing.
Double Team counter is fast. it comes out fast, the reaction hit is fast, and it covers a fair bit of distance. Timed well, I find it can be used to cut through zoning pretty effectively. Careful using in the air though. More than once I've Double Team flung myself off the stage, and gotten myself in trouble with the more limited recovery.

Is there a combo you discovered that works great with UAir?

 

[Solaris_Noid]

If there's one thing I can say for sure, it's that (when I'm playing Lucario) he struggles against K Rool pretty badly, as well as dealing with characters that have safe pressure, like both Chu's and Sheik. Maybe I suck with Lucario now all of a sudden, but his Smadh 4 stuff doesn't work and I'm having trouble adapting. Any tips for what kind of new stuff he gets?

I haven't really played any of them that didn't rely on cannonball and down grab kills, but what actually needs to be tested is how Lucario can break K. Rool's armor (if it's even possible)

Otherwise I just treat it like most of the other matchups and just wait for them to mess up and try and capitalize off that.


Edit: I REALLY wish you could set the dummy to record in Training mode, it just hit me that you could possibly send the cannonball back at him with an Aura'd up Aura Sphere.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I haven't really played any of them that didn't rely on cannonball and down grab kills, but what actually needs to be tested is how Lucario can break K. Rool's armor (if it's even possible)

Otherwise I just treat it like most of the other matchups and just wait for them to mess up and try and capitalize off that.


Edit: I REALLY wish you could set the dummy to record in Training mode, it just hit me that you could possibly send the cannonball back at him with an Aura'd up Aura Sphere.

I haven't had any luck trying that, they just cancelled each other out. I mean, it's fine, because I also play all of the Star Fox characters, and they have hilariously good match-ups against K Rool in my opinion (so does Palutena for some reason), so I can save Lucario for certain things. I personally believe playing match-ups is going to be wayyyyyy more fun *and* effective in this game, as opposed to "maining" a character or two.

 

[chaos_Leader]

I haven't had any luck trying that, they just cancelled each other out. I mean, it's fine, because I also play all of the Star Fox characters, and they have hilariously good match-ups against K Rool in my opinion (so does Palutena for some reason), so I can save Lucario for certain things. I personally believe playing match-ups is going to be wayyyyyy more fun *and* effective in this game, as opposed to "maining" a character or two.

If you can get the spacing down for it, see if you can Double Team counter past the cannonball and smack Krool where he don't see it coming. I've had some decent success using it to cut through zoning, and it's also a handy tool to punish overenthusiastic aggression when you run into that.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

If you can get the spacing down for it, see if you can Double Team counter past the cannonball and smack Krool where he don't see it coming. I've had some decent success using it to cut through zoning, and it's also a handy tool to punish overenthusiastic aggression when you run into that.

Does it warp to projectile users if the projectile is somewhat close to them?

 

[Solaris_Noid]

Does it warp to projectile users if the projectile is somewhat close to them?

It seems like it, I'll have to mess with it later. I know in previous games you can actually reverse the direction he comes from but I've tried it and it's either gone or I'm just not doing the input fast enough.

 

[LightningHelix]

Lucario definetly feels better to play, everything connects better, he's harder to punish, his side B is better and the range dosen't lie.

Top tier is a relative thing though, so it depends how much competition he has. I voted heck yeah, just because he feels way better to play, but honestly who knows?

 

[chaos_Leader]

Does it warp to projectile users if the projectile is somewhat close to them?

Yes, but there seems to be a limit to how far Double Team can jump to the target. I'll have to lab out how far that is, and how/if the direction of Double Team strike can be controlled.

 

[chaos_Leader]

I hope you don't mind the double post. I did some quick lab work on Double Team's "Jump."

- Direction can be controlled. Analog stick left/right will determine the direction of Lucario's flying kick lunge.

("sp" is the "spawn point" where Lucario appears when the counter is triggered)
Stick Left : <---sp
Stick Right : sp--->
Similar/Same as it was in SSB4


- Jump Distance
Using the grid markers in Training mode, it's about 4.5-5 meters (is that the right unit?) max distance to "jump" to the target. Also seems that the target's hurtbox is a factor: bigger targets get more distance, etc.
Bearing in mind, at this max distance, the "jump" hit will only connect when holding the stick direction away from the target, which will cause Lucario to spawn right on top of the target with an immediate flying kick. Any further, and holding stick away will cause Lucario to spawn just in front of the target and flying kick away, missing entirely.
At this same max threshold distance, stick toward the target will cause Lucario to land just short of the target with no hitbox of his own. Not a whole lot of lag on the ground, but still potentially vulnerable if the target used a low-lag move.

With this in mind, if you're looking to use Double Team to Jump to your target from a distance, it's about 5 meters max (maybe a little less), and you'll want to hold away from your target to get the most out of the distance and give the least time for your target to react. Holding toward can still work, but you'll get a bit less useful distance, and your target will get a few more frames to react.

Jump distance does not scale with Aura, neither does the distance the flying kick lunge travels.

Side Note and PSA: please, if it can at all be helped, try not to accidentally fling yourself off the edge with Double Team. The finishing lag in air is horrible, and Lucario has enough momentum that you can very quickly find yourself in trouble off-stage, especially with the now more limited recovery. Since your direction of travel can be controlled, try to default toward the stage, and hopefully the wall will be there to brake Lucario's massive lunge.


Maybe we should start compiling all these useful tidbits and data floating around this froum into a dedicated guide thread...

 

[Ajani]

I hope you don't mind the double post. I did some quick lab work on Double Team's "Jump."

- Direction can be controlled. Analog stick left/right will determine the direction of Lucario's flying kick lunge.

("sp" is the "spawn point" where Lucario appears when the counter is triggered)
Stick Left : <---sp
Stick Right : sp--->
Similar/Same as it was in SSB4


- Jump Distance
Using the grid markers in Training mode, it's about 4.5-5 meters (is that the right unit?) max distance to "jump" to the target. Also seems that the target's hurtbox is a factor: bigger targets get more distance, etc.
Bearing in mind, at this max distance, the "jump" hit will only connect when holding the stick direction away from the target, which will cause Lucario to spawn right on top of the target with an immediate flying kick. Any further, and holding stick away will cause Lucario to spawn just in front of the target and flying kick away, missing entirely.
At this same max threshold distance, stick toward the target will cause Lucario to land just short of the target with no hitbox of his own. Not a whole lot of lag on the ground, but still potentially vulnerable if the target used a low-lag move.

With this in mind, if you're looking to use Double Team to Jump to your target from a distance, it's about 5 meters max (maybe a little less), and you'll want to hold away from your target to get the most out of the distance and give the least time for your target to react. Holding toward can still work, but you'll get a bit less useful distance, and your target will get a few more frames to react.

Jump distance does not scale with Aura, neither does the distance the flying kick lunge travels.

Side Note and PSA: please, if it can at all be helped, try not to accidentally fling yourself off the edge with Double Team. The finishing lag in air is horrible, and Lucario has enough momentum that you can very quickly find yourself in trouble off-stage, especially with the now more limited recovery. Since your direction of travel can be controlled, try to default toward the stage, and hopefully the wall will be there to brake Lucario's massive lunge.


Maybe we should start compiling all these useful tidbits and data floating around this froum into a dedicated guide thread...

Yes I agree

Right now we need a lot of traffic in this part of the forum. Lucario is difficult to play and if we dont get more traction then he will fall off competiveness

 

[Downshift]

Regarding his Down Air:

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Lucario_(SSBU)


This move is going to be the first thing I try out when I get my hands on the game, since it was one of the attributes that first drew me to Lucario in Brawl. I don't mind the endlag or that it stalls less because I've seen it in Ultimate matches and it stalls just fine.
The main thing I'm interested in are those larger hitboxes. In Sm4sh, that initial hit was a much smaller hitbox that had to basically be on top of the opponent to connect, which meant it lost its OOS and "get off me" utility that it had in Brawl, which could also be used to mix up approaches. Even if the initial hitbox is only as large as the second hitbox was in Sm4sh, I'll be happy.

Circling back around to this... yeah Dair seems to have the same smaller hitboxes as their nerfed version from Sm4sh.

Was messing around with Brawl last week (RIP, Wii) and in that game I could run up to someone and SH Dair in front of them and hit them. Didn't do much damage but it knocked them away. In Ultimate, just like Sm4sh, the Dair hitboxes are only directly below Luc, and don't hit anyone in front or behind you unless you're literally clipping into them. They also don't seem to hit as far below him as the Uair or Bair aura disjoints reach in their respective directions.
The only use I've found for Dair so far is fast falling on someone and releasing a Dair right onto their eyebrows. Very situational.

Anyone else use Dair for anything useful? Doesn't seem like it'll ever be a decent OOS option again.

 

[Ajani]

Circling back around to this... yeah Dair seems to have the same smaller hitboxes as their nerfed version from Sm4sh.

Was messing around with Brawl last week (RIP, Wii) and in that game I could run up to someone and SH Dair in front of them and hit them. Didn't do much damage but it knocked them away. In Ultimate, just like Sm4sh, the Dair hitboxes are only directly below Luc, and don't hit anyone in front or behind you unless you're literally clipping into them. They also don't seem to hit as far below him as the Uair or Bair aura disjoints reach in their respective directions.
The only use I've found for Dair so far is fast falling on someone and releasing a Dair right onto their eyebrows. Very situational.

Anyone else use Dair for anything useful? Doesn't seem like it'll ever be a decent OOS option again.

I have no idea on Lucario combos. The problem is he has really decent neutrals but combos are a problem. BAir abd UAir is a great kill option but HOW do you set it up?

Idunno, Im new to all of this but it seems so odd for Lucario to be top tier considering he's had no tournament showing thus far

 

[Downshift]

Other than Dthrow -> Fair -> Fair, I don't think Lucario has many "true" combos, but he does have different strings if you can move him around effectively and win in the air.
It's tough with Luc though since his aerials have rather small hitboxes and are only out for maybe 2 frames, so your timing and spacing has to be on point.

Also:
https://smashboards.com/threads/don’t-park-on-the-grass-top-8-recap-results.465908/

A Lucario very recently placed 17th in a tournament that featured quote a few pro players. Not great but it's not nothing.

 

[Ajani]

Other than Dthrow -> Fair -> Fair, I don't think Lucario has many "true" combos, but he does have different strings if you can move him around effectively and win in the air.
It's tough with Luc though since his aerials have rather small hitboxes and are only out for maybe 2 frames, so your timing and spacing has to be on point.

Also:
https://smashboards.com/threads/don’t-park-on-the-grass-top-8-recap-results.465908/

A Lucario very recently placed 17th in a tournament that featured quote a few pro players. Not great but it's not nothing.

Thank you

As I dont have anyone to test this with, does this work for you:

UTilt -> Grab -> Dthrow -> FAir -> FAir

 

[chaos_Leader]

Maybe we should start compiling all these useful tidbits and data floating around this froum into a dedicated guide thread...

Yes I agree

Right now we need a lot of traffic in this part of the forum. Lucario is difficult to play and if we dont get more traction then he will fall off competiveness

Okay, I've decided. As of posting this, I'm working out a guide post, using another older guide as a rough template. I'll have something up soonish, depending on how efficiently I can word-process. Regardless, once I have the guide up, I intend it to be a flexible and fluid document: continuously added to, modified, tweaked as new information is discovered/confirmed.

 

[whippletickle]

I can see Lucario being A-tier in Ultimate, the risk/reward factor of Lucario is much more balanced in lucario's favor this time around, and we're already starting to see what Risk/reward style characters like Pichu are capable of in Ultimate.

All the buffs I've noticed in my short time playing so far:

Strong kill moves and stage presence even at 0 Aura
Improved air speed and movement in general
Three stocks to take advantage of Aura with
Plenty of ways to take advantage of offstage opponents for early kills
Very safe recovery, covers good distance even at 0% and easy to control (still trying to get a kill with it)
Parry --> Force Palm is controller-smashing levels of cheezy


Everything that made him sub-par in Smash 4 is going to be what makes him a legitimate threat in Ultimate. Add the fact he's currently under-represented (and consequently under-studied), I would put money on seeing Lucario win some high level tournies.

I'm hyped for him and definitely plan on picking him up as a serious pick this time around. Force Palm is just too good

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

What frame does Force Palm start to have a grab box?

 

[Ajani]

What frame does Force Palm start to have a grab box?

Frame 9

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Frame 9

That is substantially faster than I felt it was, so that's good. I'll keep trying to figure out the blue dog monster, so far I'm not very good with him, but I'm pretty sure it's my fault.

 

[Ajani]

That is substantially faster than I felt it was, so that's good. I'll keep trying to figure out the blue dog monster, so far I'm not very good with him, but I'm pretty sure it's my fault.

He is extremely hard to learn so I feel you mate

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

He is extremely hard to learn so I feel you mate

He was easy-peasy for me in Smash 4. Now I just feel like I'm only good with my mains, and my secondaries are way harder.

 

[Kobalt]

I resent the frame data for Lucario, as someone who has main'd him since Brawl. I get that it's because of his Aura, but stifling him hitboxes like this doesn't help. Almost every other character in the game that works at close range has combos and even kill confirms, and even those categorized as sword characters are faster and have combos; but the buffs to Lucario don't feel potent in any measure because many of the characters who needed the same speed buffs got it.

He lost his U-air 50/50 and even lost the ability to combo effectively from throw, which was one of the only reliable ways for him to rack up damage in Sm4sh (because he sure as hell couldn't do it on hit, unless it was d-tilt into grab). Now, throws toss enemies so far from Lucario that he can't follow up with anything- why is this even a thing? Throws aren't what Lucario uses to kill opponents, even at max Aura. It has been nothing short of frustrating trying to figure out what to do with this character in terms of racking up damage besides spamming Aura Sphere, going for grabs (which rarely works since many characters have much better OOS options than he does), and hoping they'll shield long enough for Lucario to reach them with Force Palm. Other than that, hard reads are about the only thing you can hope for- good luck with that, because you'll get punished if you're wrong.

So far, D-tilt into grab works, but the only reliable ways I've figured to damage folks is either back throw into dash attack (doesn't always work) or back throw into Aura Sphere (also doesn't always work, will never work at high percentages). Up throw into N-air only works at 0%, and even then only if you double jump; if the opponent fails to ukemi on the top platform (Battlefield stages), you can psuedo-lock them with n-air- which is useless because you aren't going to get back on the platform fast enough to do anything. If they manage to DI, you can maybe throw in f-air if they don't have good air options, but you will be beaten 9 times out of 10 if they throw anything out.

... Sorry. Felt the urge to get that off my shoulders. I want Lucario to be awesome, but his current buffs aren't working in this game. I don't want Mii Gunner to be my best character in Elite Smash...

 

[Ajani]

I resent the frame data for Lucario, as someone who has main'd him since Brawl. I get that it's because of his Aura, but stifling him hitboxes like this doesn't help. Almost every other character in the game that works at close range has combos and even kill confirms, and even those categorized as sword characters are faster and have combos; but the buffs to Lucario don't feel potent in any measure because many of the characters who needed the same speed buffs got it.

He lost his U-air 50/50 and even lost the ability to combo effectively from throw, which was one of the only reliable ways for him to rack up damage in Sm4sh (because he sure as hell couldn't do it on hit, unless it was d-tilt into grab). Now, throws toss enemies so far from Lucario that he can't follow up with anything- why is this even a thing? Throws aren't what Lucario uses to kill opponents, even at max Aura. It has been nothing short of frustrating trying to figure out what to do with this character in terms of racking up damage besides spamming Aura Sphere, going for grabs (which rarely works since many characters have much better OOS options than he does), and hoping they'll shield long enough for Lucario to reach them with Force Palm. Other than that, hard reads are about the only thing you can hope for- good luck with that, because you'll get punished if you're wrong.

So far, D-tilt into grab works, but the only reliable ways I've figured to damage folks is either back throw into dash attack (doesn't always work) or back throw into Aura Sphere (also doesn't always work, will never work at high percentages). Up throw into N-air only works at 0%, and even then only if you double jump; if the opponent fails to ukemi on the top platform (Battlefield stages), you can psuedo-lock them with n-air- which is useless because you aren't going to get back on the platform fast enough to do anything. If they manage to DI, you can maybe throw in f-air if they don't have good air options, but you will be beaten 9 times out of 10 if they throw anything out.

... Sorry. Felt the urge to get that off my shoulders. I want Lucario to be awesome, but his current buffs aren't working in this game. I don't want Mii Gunner to be my best character in Elite Smash...

Thank you for your perspective and it is something I'm learning quickly as well.

His most reliable combo at early% is utilt -> grab-> dthrow-> Fair -> nair

His main problem is that his kill options require big upstart time which means it's so hard to kill faster characters

I'm glad zero loves lucario but it feels like placing him too tier is a bold statement

 

[Kobalt]

Thank you for your perspective and it is something I'm learning quickly as well.

His most reliable combo at early% is utilt -> grab-> dthrow-> Fair -> nair

His main problem is that his kill options require big upstart time which means it's so hard to kill faster characters

I'm glad zero loves lucario but it feels like placing him too tier is a bold statement

I forgot to mention Up-B. I don't recall ever SDing with it in Sm4sh, but now? It happens often enough that I'm sick of it. If you nudge the stick even a fraction in any direction, you will curve violently. But yeah- that was mostly my grievances with Lucario. When I can combo more easily with Incineroar (who is supposed to be a grappler) than I can with Lucario... there's a problem.

 

[Ajani]

I forgot to mention Up-B. I don't recall ever SDing with it in Sm4sh, but now? It happens often enough that I'm sick of it. If you nudge the stick even a fraction in any direction, you will curve violently. But yeah- that was mostly my grievances with Lucario. When I can combo more easily with Incineroar (who is supposed to be a grappler) than I can with Lucario... there's a problem.

Its not just that. Do you not feel the Aura mechanic is outclassed by Pichu? A faster character with better priority and neutral game that can gets stronger with the rage mechanic.

Im still working on Lucario in labs to hopefully discover something that breaks his awful kill options but right now it feels like if you want to climb with him its a matter of outplaying your opponent in the mind game. While skillful, would it not be simply better with a pichu?

 

[Kobalt]

Sorry, doublepost.

 

[Kobalt]

Its not just that. Do you not feel the Aura mechanic is outclassed by Pichu? A faster character with better priority and neutral game that can gets stronger with the rage mechanic.

Im still working on Lucario in labs to hopefully discover something that breaks his awful kill options but right now it feels like if you want to climb with him its a matter of outplaying your opponent in the mind game. While skillful, would it not be simply better with a pichu?

For Pichu, absolutely. About the only thing I could do against it was Double Team its projectiles and throw out random tilts and smashes, and hope I could hit it. Once you get caught by a tilt, you're not going to be doing anything for the next few seconds. Playing mindgames is fine, but any character can play mind games if they condition their opponent well enough. The point of a mind game is to keep the opponent guessing, and when your kit is so impotent as to leave you with few options, it's easier to guess. So yes, Pichu (or any character with a bigger kit than Lucario) would be able to pull off a better mind game, and Pichu especially with its better speed, recovery, stage-controlling projectile, and neutral game.

I also don't think Aura is as useful as it was in the past, not when compared to the insanely early kill options and damage-dealing other characters have. Maybe that's a comparison I shouldn't be making, but it's hard not to make them when one considers how easily a K. Rool, Isabelle or Inkling player goes about matches. If they were really going to make Aura less of an issue, then it might've been a better idea to keep Lucario's combo options as they were in Sm4sh while lessening Aura's effects, buffing the character overall while adding Aura to its attacks based on high aura (in terms of hitboxes and attack ranges).

I think the worst part, though, is that even though this is the third time he's been a part of the Smash roster, Lucario is an otherwise straightforward character with no real nuances beyond Aura and B-reversals; and with the buffs to movement and adding a jump charge cancel, the B-reversal tech is almost redundant beyond a now practically-unfeasible AS shield-cancel into U-smash. I see plenty of combo/style videos uploaded all over youtube, and almost none of them involve Lucario gameplay (unless it's Project M). Why would they? He never had an impressive combo game, a meteor smash, a kill confirm at a set percentage, a 0-to-death, or a most noteworthy tournament moment aside from Tsu's run at Frostbite 2017; and with the severe nerf to Aura in team battles (no more Anubis combos), his effectiveness in doubles is going to suffer badly.

And now? He feels like he has even less.

... Ugh, I feel like I'm complaining too much. It's been a long night, and I'm playing Smash right now- defeat is bitter. But I felt the need to add my two cents.

 

[Ajani]

https://clips.twitch.tv/BoldSourPancakeDuDudu

Did you guys know if this was possible?

 

[Kobalt]

https://clips.twitch.tv/BoldSourPancakeDuDudu

Did you guys know if this was possible?

I'd seen it done with Mii Gunner's Flame Pillar, but I didn't know Lucario's d-air could do it too. Makes sense, actually.

 

[asphyxiate14]

Lucario seems ok. Mostly I'm upset how they changed the hitbox on aura sphere charge. It barely feels like a threat any more.
Landing on someone with it seems like it barely does anything anymore and they fall out so quickly. It also seems like so many things beat it now like simple dash attacks. I miss using it as one of my main movement options, acting as a pseudo sheild with a hit box.
Charging at the ledge definitely seems weaker now also since ledge getup attack is invincible , sucks.
I was very good at moving around with aura sphere in smash 4, jump canceling it on every landing and jumping again right after to do what i want, the new second jump cancel has caused me to sd many times off the edge stuck charging and flying off the stage lol.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

I think he's fine. Lucario just requires solid fundamentals to do well with and since the game is pretty much a month old I think people are still ironing out their bad habits from 4. Not having kill setups does kinda suck but that's when you gotta make dem reads and force your opponent to make a mistake.

 

[Guillotine_Maxine]

While I don't personally see a point in trying to work out a tier list until before/after summer, from what I've worked out Lucario is quick and has some really good tools so I think he'll probably be at least high tier, or at the very least upper-mid. Either way I'd play him because he's pretty much the only character I find interesting to play in this game because of the aura mechanic (besides maybe Robin with her resource management).

I've seen people talk about his lack of combo game / kill confirms and I'm not sure I entirely agree with that notion. I recorded some labbing in training mode last night and I found some really promising stuff (of course this is with no DI but a lot of it seems promising even with taking DI into account), but the problem is with the training mode combo counter not being 100% reliable and with the fact that I have no one to lab this stuff out with me as of right now, so I can't be completely confident in some of the stuff I found being true.

I plan on editing my recording down and uploading it probably this week but in the meantime if someone can lab out if falling nair --> grab (and dash --> grab) is actually true (this seems to work with first hit and second hit at varying percents + aura each) that would help ease my mind. If it's true I could see it being a very reliable combo starter and could actually open up some really cool 50/50 situations with falling nair/fair vs fastfall side-b around kill percent. Not sure if all this is translating into text well but when I upload my footage / figure out if most of this stuff is true we can maybe hash some stuff out.

 

[Kobalt]

I've seen people talk about his lack of combo game / kill confirms and I'm not sure I entirely agree with that notion. I recorded some labbing in training mode last night and I found some really promising stuff (of course this is with no DI but a lot of it seems promising even with taking DI into account),

That's the problem- everyone has more defensive options with DI and air dodging, and with Lucario's frame data and increased throw range lab-trained combos aren't likely to be feasible in online play. I would love to see what you have, but I'm going to be skeptical until DI is factored in.

 

[MickJaegar]

Doesn't Training mode have a feature that has the AI DI at random?

 

[Kobalt]

2.0 released. Shortened hitstun time on Aura Sphere hitbox- B-reversal cancels into U-smash or B-air are literally useless now.

 

[Crucible]

2.0 released. Shortened hitstun time on Aura Sphere hitbox- B-reversal cancels into U-smash or B-air are literally useless now.

Yup really upsetting definitely drops him a few spots down on future tier list imo sigh

 

[VodkaHaze]

2.0 released. Shortened hitstun time on Aura Sphere hitbox- B-reversal cancels into U-smash or B-air are literally useless now.

There were characters I think far deserving of nerfs, like Peach and Snake. ZeRo still thinks he's top tier, even after this nerf, but Tsu was saying that he was considering dropping Lucario because he doesn't work well in Ultimate, kind of like Captain Falcon in Brawl.

EDIT: Seems I was a bit hasty. You can still ASC into Usmash (in fact some Lucario mains are saying it's more reliable). He can also ASC in Bair and Nair, but the former it's like 20-30% later, and the latter is much later. This confusion arises because Nintendo used the word "hitstun" (the time you're stunned after being hit) when we would've used "hitlag" (extra time added to an attack because you were hit, like how DK's Up-B takes more time to finish if there's someone getting hit for every swing).

 

[Browny]

lmao, and to think Anti had a ragequit over Lucario without actually bothering to test it, typical. I got caught out on the hitstun/hitlag thing too, but testing things showed the truth.

 

[Kobalt]

Well, that's good at least. Now, if they could just tone down Lucario's throw power so we can get our combos back...