Is Lucario Top Tier in Ultimate?

Would you like to see Lucario as a Top Tier?


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    76

RioluNebula

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#1
So for the most part, Lucario has been buffed for Ultimate. Some, if not most, of his moves now have less lag on them, including Fair, Aura Sphere, Nair, Extreme Speed, and Dair. However, Lucario's damage output has been tampered with. His Aura has received a slight nerf in power since Smash 4, meaning his moves wont do as much damage or knockback at higher percents like they used too for the most part. BUT, now Lucario's damage game is more based towards his early percent. His base damage output has been buffed quite a bit. Meaning, Lucario wont have to wait and take damage for his aura to kick in now, he can fight right off the respawn. And remember, his aura isn't going away, it'l still be there, so that's even more added strength. Although, he will probably be doing the same amount of damage output at full aura as he did in Smash 4 when its all said and done with, but they just took some of his power from his aura ability, and gave it to his base damage, and i think i prefer this more.
 

godogod

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#2
Top tier? That's a bit of an exaggeration. He's gotten some buffs, sure. But he's still a slow fighter with some lag on his moves, and doesn't have a ton of combos. Forward air comboing into itself again like brawl seems like its back.. It' s bit of a bummer down aerial isn't like his brawl though. I think he'll continue to be mid tier at best.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#3
Lucario is still a high risk, high reward fighter. It needs to have high amounts of damage to become a powerful KO maker, but at the same time, that high damage makes it more likely to get KO'd by its opponents.

A fighter with a mechanic like that definitely won't get any top tier love, but it could get an above average tier position if the frame data is manageable enough.
 

Metal-Ace

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#4
Lucario playstyle is still a double edged sword which can turn off top players. I can see him being solid mid tier at the start of Ultimate, but I think he has some potential to move up.
 
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#5
His N-air got a massive buff, it's pretty much like Zelda's now (it appears to now drag it's opponents with him), rather than dealing a single strong hit (with a weaker 2nd hitbox at the back).
 

Downshift

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#6
Getting a base damage buff at 0% is going to be the best thing in his transition to Ultimate.

All too often you’d be dueling with another heavy hitter and lose out, so you’d respawn at 0% and they’d still have 150% and rage. You’re doing basically no damage so you can’t complete the KO while they’re getting you up to 50% again and threatening you with another KO due to their rage stat. Being able to respawn at 0% and go right in with at least one or two KO threats will change the meta completely.

Combos also appearing to be much less of a thing in Ultimate means he won't get combo’d as much either, further improving his tier placement. I honestly wish they’d bring back some of his Brawl floatiness and yeah, that Brawl-tier D-air, but the low-aura buff was the main thing he needed.

A lot of it will depend on the matchup. I almost always pick Lucario when going up against the Sheiks, Pikachus, ZSS, and other high tiers that have trouble KO’ing at low percentages, but get legit worried against heavy hitters with range that can KO early like Mewtwo and Ike.
I don’t think he’ll be Top Ten given the competition, but I can’t imagine he’ll ever drop below High Tier (Top 1/3rd).
 
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#7
Uh, isn't this a little early to be asking this? There could be a bunch of changes before release and we do not know all of the data yet.
 

Solaris_Noid

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#8
It's way too early to be even debating this lol. Meta for anything competitive changes constantly, maybe in the first four months that the game is out we'll know.

One thing that I will say is that he looks like he'll be more consistent now that he's less about "taking damage until he becomes a decent character" and more along the lines of being more fundamentally sound from the get go.
 

Downshift

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#9
Uh, isn't this a little early to be asking this? There could be a bunch of changes before release and we do not know all of the data yet.
It's way too early to be even debating this lol. Meta for anything competitive changes constantly, maybe in the first four months that the game is out we'll know.
The actual poll question was, "Would you like to see Lucario as a Top Tier?"
If that's really what he meant, it's a bit different.

I think most people that didn't like playing against a Lucario didn't like how much effect his aura had on the flow of the match; and how one player could be playing twice as well as the Lucario and still lose in the final 30 seconds purely due to aura+rage.
So with his aura being toned down and evened out a bit, I'd think more people would be OK with Lucario being better this time around.

The one thing I don't want is to main a character that is universally hated competitively due to being "brain dead" or "broken", like Little Mac or Bayo.
 
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godogod

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#10
The actual poll question was, "Would you like to see Lucario as a Top Tier?"
If that's really what he meant, it's a bit different.

I think most people that didn't like playing against a Lucario didn't like how much effect his aura had on the flow of the match; and how one player could be playing twice as well as the Lucario and still lose in the final 30 seconds purely due to aura+rage.
So with his aura being toned down and evened out a bit, I'd think more people would be OK with Lucario being better this time around.

The one thing I don't want is to main a character that is universally hated competitively due to being "brain dead" or "broken", like Little Mac or Bayo.
little mac is balanced by having a crap recovery.
 

Downshift

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#11
I should have said "due to being "brain dead" or "broken", like Little Mac or Bayo **respectively."
Easy Mac isn't argued as broken like Bayo, he's brain dead. "Press A to win.", etc, etc

Playing a Little Mac in 4v4+ FFAs when you can't see him coming is a nightmare of frustration, and I've seen it ruin entire gaming bar interactions with mass rage quits when a LM player runs around opportunistically sharking with Smashes and KO punches.
It's 2018, this shouldn't be news by now. He's not good, people just hate playing against him and equate his mains with noobs who have no skill.

With that in mind, I've also heard it said that Lucario players can win despite being far less skilled, only because of aura+rage jank. So I'm all for toning down the aura and having Luc be taken a bit more seriously.
 

Solaris_Noid

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#12
The actual poll question was, "Would you like to see Lucario as a Top Tier?"
If that's really what he meant, it's a bit different.

I think most people that didn't like playing against a Lucario didn't like how much effect his aura had on the flow of the match; and how one player could be playing twice as well as the Lucario and still lose in the final 30 seconds purely due to aura+rage.
So with his aura being toned down and evened out a bit, I'd think more people would be OK with Lucario being better this time around.

The one thing I don't want is to main a character that is universally hated competitively due to being "brain dead" or "broken", like Little Mac or Bayo.

Oh well if that's the case then yeah, I guess I did misread it.

I can live with my characters being bad but I really don't want it to be the case. I've already dealt with that in Bullet in Blazblue and characters being busted doesn't really affect me personally as long as they're fun to play.
 
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#13
Lucario seems better. Lots of characters are good tho. so maybe not top tier, but I think Lucario is good :)
Be happy about what's there now, and enjoy :)
 

Zoa

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#14
Been a Luc main since Brawl, and his base power increase was the single biggest change I was hoping to happen to him. I can't tell you how happy I am with this change. Gaining power more slowly is fine provided he's able to do something in damage and kill potential at the start of a stock. I'll be looking into mapping out his aura gain like I did when Smash 4 first launched.
 

Downshift

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#15
Regarding his Down Air:

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Lucario_(SSBU)
  • Down aerial has bigger hitboxes.
  • Down aerial stalls a bit less in the air.
  • Down aerial has slightly more landing lag.
This move is going to be the first thing I try out when I get my hands on the game, since it was one of the attributes that first drew me to Lucario in Brawl. I don't mind the endlag or that it stalls less because I've seen it in Ultimate matches and it stalls just fine.
The main thing I'm interested in are those larger hitboxes. In Sm4sh, that initial hit was a much smaller hitbox that had to basically be on top of the opponent to connect, which meant it lost its OOS and "get off me" utility that it had in Brawl, which could also be used to mix up approaches. Even if the initial hitbox is only as large as the second hitbox was in Sm4sh, I'll be happy.
 

Ienzo97

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#16
Something important to mention - Lucario's weight is lower now, going from 99 to 92 - so he isn't a heavyweight anymore.

In exchange though, his air speed is now the joint 6th fastest in the game with Wolf, from 20th fastest in Sm4sh, which is faster than Wario. Air acceleration is faster too, so he's a lot faster than before. I'm really happy with this change, I think it'll help Lucario a lot in this game.

Can all be found on Kurogane Hammer: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Attributes

I'm not sure if he'll be top tier, but high tier definitely seems likely to me.
 
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#17
Something important to mention - Lucario's weight is lower now, going from 99 to 92 - so he isn't a heavyweight anymore.

In exchange though, his air speed is now the joint 6th fastest in the game with Wolf, from 20th fastest in Sm4sh, which is faster than Wario. Air acceleration is faster too, so he's a lot faster than before. I'm really happy with this change, I think it'll help Lucario a lot in this game.

Can all be found on Kurogane Hammer: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Attributes

I'm not sure if he'll be top tier, but high tier definitely seems likely to me.
I'm glad about that too, and it's what made be pay more attention to the character, tho it kinda sucks if he's lighter.
Well, as long as he's fun :) and he really seems to be.
 

Ienzo97

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#18
I'm glad about that too, and it's what made be pay more attention to the character, tho it kinda sucks if he's lighter.
Well, as long as he's fun :) and he really seems to be.
I wasn't a big fan of Lucario's design in Sm4sh, he was too polarised. I'll take a weight reduction if it makes him a more consistent and fun character. Hopefully his vertical survivability will still be good due to his weird fall speed and gravity.
 
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#19
I wasn't a big fan of Lucario's design in Sm4sh, he was too polarised. I'll take a weight reduction if it makes him a more consistent and fun character. Hopefully his vertical survivability will still be good due to his weird fall speed and gravity.
I use a lot of lighter characters, so I was thinking it'd be nice if he was heavier, but anyway, being a fun character is big enough, and I love aerial mobility :)
We'll just have to see how it plays out in battle.
 

Downshift

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#20
:ohwell:
That weight nerf drops him like 20 spots, but makes sense if his air speed is really that much faster. Trading weight to tank and survive hits for speed to avoid the hits in the first place.
I just hope it's not an overall nerf to his survivablity, because that's paramount for Lucario...
 
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#21
:ohwell:
That weight nerf drops him like 20 spots, but makes sense if his air speed is really that much faster. Trading weight to tank and survive hits for speed to avoid the hits in the first place.
I just hope it's not an overall nerf to his survivablity, because that's paramount for Lucario...
It is, but somebody who plays well can use that mobility to avoid more attacks. So it'll change the game plan a little bit.
 

Ienzo97

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#23
I don't think we should worry too much about survivability, characters seem to live for a long time in Ultimate anyway.
 
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#24
I don't think we should worry too much about survivability, characters seem to live for a long time in Ultimate anyway.
That's true enough in most cases. I'm more concerned about pichu's weight than lucario :p
It's still decent weight too, all things considered. Just not great like the heavy ones.
 

Downshift

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#25
I don't think we should worry too much about survivability, characters seem to live for a long time in Ultimate anyway.
Well... only for the few that still have a decent recovery.
Lots of recoveries got nerfed and that directional airdodge is a double edged sword off stage.
 

Ienzo97

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#26
Well... only for the few that still have a decent recovery.
Lots of recoveries got nerfed and that directional airdodge is a double edged sword off stage.
Luckily, Lucario is one of those characters that still has a pretty good recovery.
 

Solaris_Noid

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#27
Luckily, Lucario is one of those characters that still has a pretty good recovery.

Especially since I heard ExtremeSpeed got buffed to where you don't have to be as specific with the recovery for less landing lag. We'll know next Friday.
 

Downshift

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#28
His recovery is good, but not as good as teleports or Quick Attack (ironic given Extreme Speed > Quick Attack).
As far as I know, even though the end of ES has a huge hitbox, there's not a hitbox for the full duration of the move like there should be, and he's not intangible while moving either. If you can react to his start up, you can straight up hit or even spike him out of the move.

I did also hear that the god-awful (comical, even) endlag on his recovery is completely gone. From what I've seen in all the gameplay videos, it doesn't matter what angle he lands at, he has the same "bounce" landing as the optimal landing angle in Sm4sh. I don't consider that a buff though, just a fix to something that shouldn't have been in the last game in the first place.
 
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#29
His recovery is good, but not as good as teleports or Quick Attack (ironic given Extreme Speed > Quick Attack).
As far as I know, even though the end of ES has a huge hitbox, there's not a hitbox for the full duration of the move like there should be, and he's not intangible while moving either. If you can react to his start up, you can straight up hit or even spike him out of the move.

I did also hear that the god-awful (comical, even) endlag on his recovery is completely gone. From what I've seen in all the gameplay videos, it doesn't matter what angle he lands at, he has the same "bounce" landing as the optimal landing angle in Sm4sh. I don't consider that a buff though, just a fix to something that shouldn't have been in the last game in the first place.
Bugfixing a negative bug doesn't make it any less of a buff. Otherwise I could say every buff ever doesn't count as a buff since clearly the devs weren't smart enough to get the changed things right the first time.
 
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#31
Either way, it's better now, and pretty good from the looks of things :)

And Lucario definitely looks fun, so I'm pretty satisfied with how he is at the moment. Want to test him out and play :)
 
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#32
I just hope he has a decent throw game, somehow, though all of the early testing seems to suggest he does not.... I also sort of wish he had the aerial force palm from Project M, but Nintendo doesn't seem too keen on taking ideas from fan-games (their loss). Still looks fun though.
 

Teeb147

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#33
I just hope he has a decent throw game, somehow, though all of the early testing seems to suggest he does not.... I also sort of wish he had the aerial force palm from Project M, but Nintendo doesn't seem too keen on taking ideas from fan-games (their loss). Still looks fun though.
Well force palm itself is a strong option. It kos and should be useful against spot dodges.
Wasnt there also still down throw to up-air?
 
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#34
Well force palm itself is a strong option. It kos and should be useful against spot dodges.
Wasnt there also still down throw to up-air?
Early percentages, yeah, but no longer anywhere near killable zones, not even as a mixup unless the opponent basically puts the controller down.

EDIT: I'm sure the character still has cool stuff, I just always wish for more. I was spoiled with my main for this game though, he got huge buffs, direct and indirect.
 
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Red Ryu

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#35
Too early to tell off the first what we know.

It'll take time to build up and see where he ends up.
 

MickJaegar

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#36
It might still a little early, but Zer0 did actually put Lucario in top tier yesterday in a video he made, the link jumps to the time where he starts talking about Lucario.

https://youtu.be/kBqjNVFv6Go?t=865

To summarize, it essentially boils down to:
Major buff in areas where they were weak in Sm4sh (Slow, no presence in low %s) while still retaining their strengths from previous games.
 
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Ajani

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#37
It might still a little early, but Zer0 did actually put Lucario in top tier yesterday in a video he made, the link jumps to the time where he starts talking about Lucario.

https://youtu.be/kBqjNVFv6Go?t=865

To summarize, it essentially boils down to:
Major buff in areas where they were weak in Sm4sh (Slow, no presence in low %s) while still retaining their strengths from previous games.
As much as this hypes me, Im keeping my cool. I remember when Smash 3ds came out everyone thought Lucario was top tier. However, the best Smash 4 player stating Lucario is a top tier is pretty dam cool. On the side note, most other streamers still seem iffy on him, mainly because no one really plays him.
 
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#39
If there's one thing I can say for sure, it's that (when I'm playing Lucario) he struggles against K Rool pretty badly, as well as dealing with characters that have safe pressure, like both Chu's and Sheik. Maybe I suck with Lucario now all of a sudden, but his Smadh 4 stuff doesn't work and I'm having trouble adapting. Any tips for what kind of new stuff he gets?
 

Ajani

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#40
I wish I could give any advice but without any frame data its all just a guess on my end.
 
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