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Is it REALLY better than melee?

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
Brawl will definitely be competitive, but as it appears now, it wont reach the level that Melee did due to the restrictiveness on the game engine itself.
Why do you feel the engine is restricted? Don't you think that the characters in Brawl possess a sense of uniqueness and depth that was lacking in Melee? Also, you don't think that Brawl seems to be a game that is going to require more creativity at a high level due to a lack of universal advance tactics?

I'm not trying to antagonize you. I think you're a respectable poster. Just want to know why you feel it will be restricted when if anything to me it is far more open ended in how you can approach playing.
 

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
4,319
Location
North Carolina
The game being restrictive doesn't affect in any way the scale of the tournaments that will be held. All you need are players that share a common interest to make the event worth putting effort into.

What you really mean to say is that you won't be able to brag about overcoming technical barriers that others couldn't. It's true that playing with your mind isn't as easily flaunted around. But who cares? I personally do not agree with your definition of competitiveness.
I'm with this guy here.
 

D20

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
1,602
Location
Pittsburgh
Azen loves every videogame.

In response to everyone else... I suppose what I am trying to say is "Don't get your hopes up."

Everyone (I'm using hyperbole again) thinks that Brawl is going to be the greatest game ever and that it will be played at an extremely competitive level. They also think that Brawl is their chance to beat the players that were too good (used ATs) at Melee. Good luck with that.
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
3,214
Location
Montreal
Azen loves every videogame.

In response to everyone else... I suppose what I am trying to say is "Don't get your hopes up."

Everyone (I'm using hyperbole again) thinks that Brawl is going to be the greatest game ever and that it will be played at an extremely competitive level. They also think that Brawl is their chance to beat the players that were too good (used ATs) at Melee. Good luck with that.
The very same players that you said wouldn't make the jump in the first place? I'm confused.
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
1,538
You only have to play the game once to realize that Nintendo did everything in their power to reduce high level competitive play in this game.
Characters survive and recovery more easily, hit stun is reduced so combos are much less effective and there are plenty of other things.

People, it's not about the lack of advanced techs. That's not why people are saying Brawl may not be as competitive.
It's the very mechanics of the gameplay themselves. They are undeniably more restrictive than in Melee.
Granted there will be a large competitive Brawl following, but how far will they get? Will we be playing Brawl in big tournaments 6 years from now? Will there be Brawl tournaments recording attendance near 300? Will there be tournaments with 2,000 dollar pots up for grabs?

By the looks of it, no.
How idiotic can one person be?

People didn't declare Melee uncompetitive after one day, they experimented with it for months before many of the advanced techniques were discovered. But yeah, who cares about that?

And my God, are you implying that floatiness, which harms no one and helps every one, is a bad thing? That because it's more balanced between characters, it harms competitive play? No, see, fun fact - it harms your competitive play, because you, likely, played with a top tier in Melee, and now that bottom tier characters are improved, you're upset and feel "cheated".

Right, I'm sure that random, mediocre Smash fans can determine how competitive Brawl will be based on almost nothing.

Almost every single advanced technique was discovered many, many months after Melee. In no universe will Melee be better for competitions.
 

OrlanduEX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,029
The game being restrictive doesn't affect in any way the scale of the tournaments that will be held. All you need are players that share a common interest to make the event worth putting effort into.

What you really mean to say is that you won't be able to brag about overcoming technical barriers that others couldn't. It's true that playing with your mind isn't as easily flaunted around. But who cares? I personally do not agree with your definition of competitiveness.
You don't understand what I'm saying at all. I never said that the mental aspects of the game aren't important and that mindgames or strategy are gone. I'm not even talking about advanced techs. I'm saying that the design of the game itself directly affects its capacity to be played at a high level.
Melee is an amazing game in terms of competition due to how deep and expansive it is. You never truly master regardless of how smart/experienced you are at the game because
there are always new skills to incorporate into your game. The engine allowed players to make it much greater than was ever intended
In Brawl, the engine itself appears to be much more restrictive (read M2K's thread on this for the technical details.). This restriction may not allow the freedom to continuously grow and advance as far as you could in Melee. This is what I mean.

Think rock-paper-scissors. There are only three possible plays, so even at the most competitive level, this game isn't very deep at all.
Think of Melee as a rock-paper-scissors game with like 1,000 more possible plays. Much deeper and thus much more competitive.
In Brawl, they basically reduced the total amount of plays. It will still be playable at a competitive level, but I think it probably wont go as far as Melee.

Why do you feel the engine is restricted? Don't you think that the characters in Brawl possess a sense of uniqueness and depth that was lacking in Melee? Also, you don't think that Brawl seems to be a game that is going to require more creativity at a high level due to a lack of universal advance tactics?
.
I'm not talking about the characters here. I like the roster and all that. I'm talking about the game engine itself. It seems it wont allow you to grow or achieve as much as in Melee. I think that even character specific techs wont be as plentiful or as meaningful as in Melee. I don't want Brawl not to be competitive. That is pointless. I'm definitely going to play it for a long time, but I don't feel that it will be quite as great as Melee was in terms of competitive play.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
How idiotic can one person be?

People didn't declare Melee uncompetitive after one day, they experimented with it for months before many of the advanced techniques were discovered. But yeah, who cares about that?

And my God, are you implying that floatiness, which harms no one and helps every one, is a bad thing? That because it's more balanced between characters, it harms competitive play? No, see, fun fact - it harms your competitive play, because you, likely, played with a top tier in Melee, and now that bottom tier characters are improved, you're upset and feel "cheated".

Right, I'm sure that random, mediocre Smash fans can determine how competitive Brawl will be based on almost nothing.

Almost every single advanced technique was discovered many, many months after Melee. In no universe will Melee be better for competitions.
I mained a bottom tier and even I don't really think Brawl will be as good as Melee. I don't think it will be as extreme as Orlandu states, but I don't think Brawl will be competitive enough to sway most of the older Melee players. Not that any of you care:ohwell:
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
3,214
Location
Montreal
I mained a bottom tier and even I don't really think Brawl will be as good as Melee. I don't think it will be as extreme as Orlandu states, but I don't think Brawl will be competitive enough to sway most of the older Melee players. Not that any of you care:ohwell:
So the competitive scene is ruined if the older melee players don't make the jump? Wake up. Why is it that someone else should have to work for crap that we can do by ourselves? I'm getting sick of all the people that won't be doing **** when Ken won't be around anymore.

1. Melee is an amazing game in terms of competition due to how deep and expansive it is.
2. You never truly master regardless of how smart/experienced you are at the game because
there are always new skills to incorporate into your game.
3. The engine allowed players to make it much greater than was ever intended
4. In Brawl, the engine itself appears to be much more restrictive
1. And you don't have much to compare Melee's deepness with since you, aswell as M2K have no idea about Brawl's deepness which will take years to unravel.
2. Assuming that everyone will have mastered Brawl in one year?
3. The focus has simply changed. How do you know that Sakurai's inclination on developing aerial battles and thus developing the engine with such mindset won't have tremendous positive impacts later on? Lengthy aerial fights were practically unheard of in Melee, why is this aspect suddenly overshadowed by what Melee had that Brawl does not have? Why aren't you looking into the newer features of Brawl and the potential said changes could have in the future?
4. Appears. Appears. None of you people are even giving it time.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
So the competitive scene is ruined if the older melee players don't make the jump? Wake up. Why is it that someone else should have to work for crap that we can do by ourselves? I'm getting sick of all the people that won't be doing **** when Ken won't be around anymore.
No, Im saying the people who stayed dedicated to smash for years and years of their lives discovering every little intricacy of play and took it to its most extreme limits wont be playing. And before you start saying how there will be more players like that and people will take Brawl to its extreme, take a VERY good look at the Brawl Boards and tell me you actually believe that >_>
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
1,538
So, um, the thing of it is, you're full of crap, and think you know so much of the game. You've basically decided that even though Melee wasn't judged immediately as a steaming pile of crap competitively, that's what Brawl is, because even though Brawl will probably show advanced techniques just like Melee did over time, you don't want it to be better competitively, because that would mean that Brawl is a better idea than Melee 2.0.

To sum it up: You don't WANT to give it a chance, and refuse to accept the very notion that it could be better because it isn't what you wanted out of Brawl.

Get over it.
 

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
4,319
Location
North Carolina
No, Im saying the people who stayed dedicated to smash for years and years of their lives discovering every little intricacy of play and took it to its most extreme limits wont be playing. And before you start saying how there will be more players like that and people will take Brawl to its extreme, take a VERY good look at the Brawl Boards and tell me you actually believe that >_>
Great idea! since everyone's had a chance to play the game already.
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
3,214
Location
Montreal
The Brawl Boards are in their current state because some stubborn people have childishly chosen to deem SSBB unworthy of their time which causes unneeded ruckus. Both sides are being as immature, why is it that you can only point on one side of the fence?
 

Archenyte

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
229
I'll just keep an open mind and see what Brawl has in store for me to discover instead of planning ahead how good or bad a game can be.
 

OrlanduEX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,029
How idiotic can one person be?

People didn't declare Melee uncompetitive after one day, they experimented with it for months before many of the advanced techniques were discovered. But yeah, who cares about that?
And my God, are you implying that floatiness, which harms no one and helps every one, is a bad thing? That because it's more balanced between characters, it harms competitive play? No, see, fun fact - it harms your competitive play, because you, likely, played with a top tier in Melee, and now that bottom tier characters are improved, you're upset and feel "cheated".
Right, I'm sure that random, mediocre Smash fans can determine how competitive Brawl will be based on almost nothing.
Almost every single advanced technique was discovered many, many months after Melee. In no universe will Melee be better for competitions.
Quit flaming man and try to understand what I'm saying here.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ADVANCED TECHS OR CHARACTER BALANCE. Stop trying to assume how I feel about the game and just go by what I say.
I'm talking about the GAMES MECHANICS. They are more restrictive than in Melee in a number of ways and there's a good chance that that may reduce the playability of Brawl at a competitive level.
Again, Brawl will be competitive, but probably not as much as Melee.

1. And you don't have much to compare Melee's deepness with since you, aswell as M2K have no idea about Brawl's deepness which will take years to unravel.
2. Assuming that everyone will have mastered Brawl in one year?
3. The focus has simply changed. How do you know that Sakurai's inclination on developing aerial battles and thus developing the engine with such mindset won't have tremendous positive impacts later on? Lengthy aerial fights were practically unheard of in Melee, why is this aspect suddenly overshadowed by what Melee had that Brawl does not have? Why aren't you looking into the newer features of Brawl and the potential said changes could have in the future?
4. Appears. Appears. None of you people are even giving it time.
1. I'm saying that Brawl probably wont be as deep due to the inherent restrictions in the game engine such as the reduced hit stun from all attacks among other things.
2. I never said that anyone would master Brawl in a year. I'm saying that it could take way less time to master it, which would reduce its longevity as a competitive game.
3. Granted Brawl has its new features that we will have to get accustomed to, but the restrictions present may mitigate the meaningfulness of those features.
And honestly, the aerial combat in Brawl hasn't improved all that much. Being more floaty actually makes you more vulnerable to attack from players on the ground, especially since landing lag can no longer be reduced. Shield grabbing will screw over aerial attacks in most cases. Also, since hit stun is generally reduced, the extra floatiness doesn't help you to combo all that much. It actually makes combos harder.
If all aerials had 0 lag or they were all just beastly for combo or KOs then I'd say that the aerial game has improved.
4. Please don't think I'm writing Brawl off. I highly anticipate this game and I'll definitely play it competitively, but I just don't think that it will be as great as Melee is in terms of competition in the long run. It's not that serious for me really.
 

Jael Irish

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
96
Location
Baltimore
Melee is better, but I'll probably still play Brawl for a while.
Any REASON you would like to include with that statement?


why does a game need to have a huge competitive user base for it to be "better"?
In my personal opinion from both a tournament perspective, Allowing competitive play in a game increases its lifespan and replay value, for melee to be played 6 years strong after its initial release, that feels pretty good to a game developer. Plus as a player you found a game your willing to stick with and play consistently. Some casual players (SOME, make sure you read that part) simply buy a game, play it for a bit, maybe even visit forums and talk about how great the game is, enjoy discussion but then eventually just put it down for something "better" or new aged. Melee lasted a while because the tournament players kept it alive, inventing new tricks, techniques, abilities, ways of play. Competition value increases a games value and lifespan, if any think I'm wrong feel free to say so, I myself have work so ill respond later.
 

Formless

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
59
Brawl will definitely be competitive, but as it appears now, it wont reach the level that Melee did due to the restrictiveness on the game engine itself.
There's plenty of different techniques exclusive to Brawl. Just because your precious techniques from Melee aren't all included doesn't mean that it won't "reach the level that Melee did". Like I said, this happens with almost every fighting game sequel that comes out, the veterans are disgruntled because it's not the same game. This really should be a non-issue anyways because it's a different game.
 

jwj442

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Messages
212
Brawl seems to be very controversial. There are a lot of competitive players who hate it (M2K is the most prominent, but certainly not the only one) and a lot who love it (Gimpy, Azen, Wes come to mind). There isn't anything to a consensus about it.
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
Brawl seems to be very controversial. There are a lot of competitive players who hate it (M2K is the most prominent, but certainly not the only one) and a lot who love it (Gimpy, Azen, Wes come to mind). There isn't anything to a consensus about it.
Just like there were plenty of competitive players who hated Melee and loved N64. The community moves on, an a new generation of great players emerge.
 

Kirby M.D.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
320
It's just different. Mindblowingly different. Change is scary to a lot of people, so you're just gonna have to play it.
 

Boxob

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
2,101
Location
Long Island NY.
I loved the 'advanced' techniques of Melee. I use them very fluently, muscle memory I would say. But the fact is that with the removal of all the stuff that other people couldn't do due to the difficulty of said techniques, the game boils down to what a good fighting game should be all about, strategy.


It's a good thing. :]
 

Doomgaze

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
195
Location
Sweden, Stockholm
I agree entirely that the brawl mechanics limits the game play, which is especially noteable when it comes to approaching, comboing and edgeguarding.

Now it's all camping and stalling :(
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
1,538
I see no problem with comboing.

And, um, how is edgeguarding not camping? Hell, it's pretty much edgecamping.

Poor gamers have to relearn how to make Smash, :crycry:
 

SGX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Messages
232
I like it as a party game, it's fun...but I'm disappointed that it seems to have lost it's competitive feel.

It's definitely more accessible than melee, but in turn I feel like there will be lower "skill ceiling" due to the slower pace of the game.

I really just wanted Brawl to be the next "big" thing in terms of a competitive fighter, but it looks like it will be there for having fun with your friends.
 

soviet prince

I am the terror that flaps in the night
Joined
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Messages
3,142
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Kentucky
NNID
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the game has only been out for a month give it time,

so what if the tech. are gone, Brawl is a new game find another way to win. At does not make the game the player does.
 

StarFox64ftw

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
45
i have played it. its offers so much moer than melee. btw my favorite feature is stage builder, oh the fun i have with it...

also, characters and general fighting= rocks,
all the cool levels= yayyyy
 

Doomgaze

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
195
Location
Sweden, Stockholm
I see no problem with comboing.

And, um, how is edgeguarding not camping? Hell, it's pretty much edgecamping.

Poor gamers have to relearn how to make Smash, :crycry:
With reduced hit lag and increased floatynes comboing is on a much lower scale than previously. Which you will learn once you play the game.

With camp/stalling I mean retreating Fair with marth, spamming projectiles with everybody else, flying below maps where other chars can't follow once you have a lead, continously up+b the edge with ike et.c.
 

falco-hokage

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
47
Location
baltimore md
from what i saw so far in vids melee has a much more strategic aproach to advance gameplay, brawl seems 2 have a better presentation of gameplay on the surface...........malee works the mind a lot more for those of us that r tech junkies(from what i saw and the advance techs found so far in brawl)
 

fouxs2

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
74
I find it better, I really never used advanced techniques in Melee (I could SHFFLL and wavedash, but didn't enjoy it much), and found Brawl much funner anyway, definitely better than Melee and even 64 in MY OPINION.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
Melee is much, much better than Brawl. I find no need to even list out reasons. If you don't agree, you probably never got the full Melee experience, or just weren't very good at it. It's plain to see, even after only playing Brawl once lol.
 
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