Is fighting against CPU's and treating them as real players a legitimate way to practice?

[monkokaio]

Obviously there are things such as character specific techs and knowing match ups that you need to know, but without human players, are CPU's decent training partners?

I've tried to look into this online before, and I've heard that CPU's can teach you some really bad habits, and I get that. There is only so much a CPU can do, and it's not like it can just learn to adapt.

Usually after practicing some tech skill and attack strings and whatever, I'll put the cursor on random, and I'll vary the CPU's level every now and again so I don't get used to fighting one level.

At the moment, I only have one friend who is willing to play with me, and I only see him about once a week. Problem is he doesn't even own the game, however I think he definitely has a good grasp on the game, and it's nice playing against an actual thinking human. But I don't think that's enough, I can't really gauge whether or not I am actually improving. After fighting CPU's for a few hours or however long I may play, I'll usually feel more confident. But once my friend comes over and say he picks Marth and spams counter or something, I have no clue how to deal with it.

I'm really trying to get better, I've always loved the smash series since the N64 days, but I just sort of recently got into the competitive aspect of the game. I watch a ton of matches to try and learn how top players use them, and sometimes even just for fun or to pass time. I read guides to have a better understanding of my character. I'm really trying to get better, it's just hard without people.

My apologies if this isn't the place to put this, or if threads like this have been done to death. I like to play mostly P:M and Brawl, I've been playing a bit more Brawl as of late because I feel smash 4 will probably be closer to Brawl than P:M, so I'm just wanting some skill to carry over.

 

[Sazen]

Well, personally I would say that training against the CPUs can help you get your execution to be more precise, so you can technically pull off the stuff you want to. I personally have trained quite a lot against the CPUs, mostly on just focusing getting my strings on point, movement, follow ups from throws etc. It has made my level of execution pretty good it seems, but then again my brother also plays Brawl with me pretty often.

About your friend spamming counter or something, I used to have problems with stupid stuff like that, but the way around that was just trying to think of a way around it, focus on it really hard, and usually it would eventually work. Like, with counter if he spams it you might as well just try to run up and shield, go for grabs and try to watch when he usually uses the move. That way you can prepare yourself for him throwing the counter out, and reacting to it by punishing it with a smash/grab/whatever. So, to deal with dumb stuff you need to think of a way around it, like back in the day my brother spammed Wolf's blaster, which I then learned to deal with by just Perfect Shielding it or short hopping over and trying to punish him for the ending lag. And as he would eventually catch on to me punishing it, he would roll, which I would try to read and punish him.

So basically just focus on the thing you have problem with, think of the things you could do to beat it, and focus on reacting to that stuff and punishing it. Since when you expect something, your reaction speed will be quicker and such. Counter in itself is kind of a bad move 'cause of the ending lag, but I think your problem is that you are used to the CPUs repeating certain patterns thus you don't need to adapt to new stuff.

So CPUs are just for practicing your tech skill, combos and stuff, but they are NOTHING like a human opponent so I would say focus on the execution while playing against them. Also, what level are the CPUs you practice against? Since usually people practice using lvl 3 MK or lvl 7 Snake, while lvl 9 is just horrible with it's perfect shields and such -> really, REALLY inhumane and creates bad habits.

Edit: Also your avatar is super awesome, Dachshunds are the hypest dogs there are with their short stubby legs and big dog bark, not to mention ego

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Counter spam is frustrating if you've spent most of your time playing CPU, this is actually one area that people mean when they say it creates bad habits.

You see, when you fight a player, there's more than just fishing for hits going on. There's some mind work going on under it all. You can't really read a CPU, they pretty much know your inputs the moment you press them, so the best way to kill them is just be fast and aggressive.

You've likely trained yourself to be aggressive, and it has you meeting face to sword with counter quite often. Ideally, you'd be able to download his countering habits. You'd see how he's reading you, and then read him in return. You can feign aggression, bait his counter, and then the next thing you know he is wide open to get smacked in a counter animation.

Counter spam could end up being the death of him, and he would in-turn need to figure out a different approach. Something else worth noting is that if you play defensively, attempting to win hit-trades, using Counter effectively becomes much more difficult for him. He would need to bait you in to them, as opposed to now where he likely relies on you attacking him offensively so he can easily pull off counter.

Playing with a CPU can actually be really helpful but it's all in how you approach that training. The best way to approach CPU training is focus on your execution and combo strings. Your movement, your hit confirms. Don't go in to CPU matches just thinking "Win". Once I read that advice from someone, and I began approaching CPU's with that mindset, it actually started to greatly improve my experience training alone, it helped me transfer that training much more realistically in to PvP.

When you're fighting a player, and most specifically in Brawl, it's a huge mind game. That's actually a part of it that I like over melee. Melee, of course, has plenty of mind games, but there's less time to think on it. Brawl doesn't make for as interesting a spectator sport as a result but I love attempting to out-think my opponent. Brawl sacrifices the need for technical prowess for an incredible amount of mind-games necessary. Once you start going 50/50 w/l with human players often you'll find yourself reading people more, and doing things to counter-act what they are doing mid-match in order to get you a hit. I honestly think of it like a complex, Nintendo-themed game of chess.

 

[NickRiddle]

Once you know what your character's moves do, playing CPUs is absolutely awful.
http://smashboards.com/forums/regional-zones.89/

 

[link2702]

playing against cpu's is a horrible idea.

About the only thing you'd use it for is to get the timing down for certain moves like the ice climbers chaingrab.


Other than that its a horrible idea. CPUs in smash have never played like real players, and never will. Most cpus are incredibly easy to deal with, including the level 9s.

Spend too much time facing a cpu and you'll get into habits that would *ONLY* work on a cpu. A real player will read you and predict and punish you hard. You'll also be completely caught off guard by what some characters actually are capable of since you've spent your time only facing cpus and not real players.


So in short; Facing cpu's to practice is a horrible idea.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

playing against cpu's is a horrible idea.

About the only thing you'd use it for is to get the timing down for certain moves like the ice climbers chaingrab.


Other than that its a horrible idea. CPUs in smash have never played like real players, and never will. Most cpus are incredibly easy to deal with, including the level 9s.

Spend too much time facing a cpu and you'll get into habits that would *ONLY* work on a cpu. A real player will read you and predict and punish you hard. You'll also be completely caught off guard by what some characters actually are capable of since you've spent your time only facing cpus and not real players.


So in short; Facing cpu's to practice is a horrible idea.

CPU's can actually consistently do things human players can't. Try fighting a CPU and not taking advantage of their AI in some cheeky way. They can actually be pretty difficult.

I think the idea when fighting CPU's is not to do it under the motivation of simply beating them, you use them to perfect your combo strings and execution.

It is absolutely not a bad idea to sharpen yourself on CPU's, but you have to approach it correctly. You definitely can't use it as a way to measure your skill, but if you have no one to play with at all or very often, there's not much of a choice. Far from a 'horrible' idea.

 

[Luco]

Playing against CPUs is obviously second to playing actual players (and ones around or slightly above your skill level, at that) - CPUs promote some pretty awful habits such as rolling and spamming of certain moves that the AI doesn't really deal well with (for me this is PKT2 spamming ). That said, if you can go into a CPU match with this in mind, they're not useless and would have the potential to help you focus on punishes and certain strings.

I wouldn't really advise it if you have the alternative but if you don't then it's not actually the worst thing you can do. Especially early on. I actually don't think many people are able to go through without going through an 'excessive rolling stage' so I dunno, maybe it would help you in some way haha.

 

[R0Y]

Maybe in Brawl, definitely not in 64 or Melee, they're horrible and you'll find yourself exploiting them without meaning to.

 

[RopeDrink]

Sorry for bumping this but it was a discussion I was holding elsewhere, as I'm one of those unfortunates who had Brawl but couldn't nab a device to play it, thus I resorted to using the game on Dolphin Emulator (PC). Not only was I stuck playing with a keyboard (which is quite awkward) but considering its multiplayer functionality was limited if not non-existent without ballsing up the settings, meant all I COULD ever play was CPU.

Naturally, we all know very well that playing CPU's will never be the same (and never better in any way) than playing actual players for the obvious reasons that we don't need to explain.

However, if you're not 'A Pro' who knows the game, understands spacing, mechanics, matchups etc - Then CPU is a challenge if you're not the type to abuse the AI. When I first started playing - Naturally, I was getting my ass handed to me by CPU of any difficulty above level 5 - Despite the fact that I had multiple years of SFIV And SFIVAE fighting experience to give me a mechanical edge over someone just starting fighting games (due to not having an iota of character experience and my stubborn refusal to play ANYONE other than Bowser).

Eventually, thanks to persistence and watching many competitive Bowser players (and trying to see how the game was meant to be played) meant that I would still never learn enough to compete in any way but I'd probably give the average Joe a fair fight, which was good enough for me.

I uploaded quite a lot of purely CPU games to my channel, simply to say to the subscribers at the time that "I play, and thoroughly enjoy, this game" despite not being able to play it in its proper form and always admitting that I'm clearly a downright rubbish noob at it.

Am I any good? No, not at all - But can CPU teach you? Yes, so long as you know what you're trying to learn, rather than just go in blind and assume that being able to beat 2xCPU level 9 even as a noob like me doesn't mean you've actually accomplished anything. If you have any sort of experience then you won't let the CPU issue teach you bad habits - Much like if I found a way to play players, I wouldn't treat them like I do CPU thanks to previous experiences in other games, as well as being mindful enough to look for visual and written research.

For the noobs, it's a good way to get some simple understanding of the game. For the pros, it's just a training room that fights back, allowing you to practice your combos or find silly ways to abuse AI for a laugh.

If you can play players, they'll always be better practice than anything else - And the better they are, the more you learn. CPU is a mediocre replacement but a replacement nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9J8VsnDxYM

That was my last video - Feel free to laugh at how bad it is but I'm having fun and still learning despite my 'handicap'. I have not to this day managed to play a player once in Brawl, and had never played Smash. Going by some of the other 'regular' videos even against players (newcomers), they're all mashing buttons and doing weird stuff - Not that I'm not, but I'm making an effort at least.

I'll treat it all differently if I'm able to get involved in the next SSB game - Fingers crossed.

TLDR - I'm in the 'yes they can' camp.

 

[Gnight]

I fight mostly CPUs because I rarely have a chance to battle a real person.

 

[AirFair]

I fight mostly CPUs because I rarely have a chance to battle a real person.

Same, I rarely get a chance to play any other people, so I'm stuck with lvl 7 computers to practice execution.

 

[TOGOpuff]

couldn't we all netplay ? I keep seeing people complaining about having no one to train brawl with and i think to myself if we couldn't be playing online ...

 

[PKBeam]

couldn't we all netplay ? I keep seeing people complaining about having no one to train brawl with and i think to myself if we couldn't be playing online ...

Not all of us have Mayflash adapters

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but sometimes when I'm bored or don't have anyone to play, I play vs the CPU (level doesn't really matter) and practice my spacing, trying to avoid being hit at all costs. I usually pressure myself into not being hit a single time.

I find this really helps me spacing as it makes me aware of how close or how far I need to actually be to be at a safe distance, and what distance is an OK distance, what distance is overextending, etc.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Obviously there are things such as character specific techs and knowing match ups that you need to know, but without human players, are CPU's decent training partners?

I've tried to look into this online before, and I've heard that CPU's can teach you some really bad habits, and I get that. There is only so much a CPU can do, and it's not like it can just learn to adapt.

Usually after practicing some tech skill and attack strings and whatever, I'll put the cursor on random, and I'll vary the CPU's level every now and again so I don't get used to fighting one level.

At the moment, I only have one friend who is willing to play with me, and I only see him about once a week. Problem is he doesn't even own the game, however I think he definitely has a good grasp on the game, and it's nice playing against an actual thinking human. But I don't think that's enough, I can't really gauge whether or not I am actually improving. After fighting CPU's for a few hours or however long I may play, I'll usually feel more confident. But once my friend comes over and say he picks Marth and spams counter or something, I have no clue how to deal with it.

I'm really trying to get better, I've always loved the smash series since the N64 days, but I just sort of recently got into the competitive aspect of the game. I watch a ton of matches to try and learn how top players use them, and sometimes even just for fun or to pass time. I read guides to have a better understanding of my character. I'm really trying to get better, it's just hard without people.

My apologies if this isn't the place to put this, or if threads like this have been done to death. I like to play mostly P:M and Brawl, I've been playing a bit more Brawl as of late because I feel smash 4 will probably be closer to Brawl than P:M, so I'm just wanting some skill to carry over.

I will just relay some stuff I have recently experienced.

Your learning needs to be structured in someway. As in everything you practice should have a goal. If you can accomplish this it seems as if you learn some permanent things. CPUs in this regard are completely fine so long as you are doing something that has an achievable goal. When you first start out playing you are probably doing this a lot without realizing it. At least this is how it was for me at first. With Falco I would practice SHDL until I got the timing down until I was satisfied with a certain amount of success. Or with Snake, I would try figuring out how to do a Dacus until I could do it properly say 8/10 times.

I had a clear goal in mind and kept working on it until I was satisfied with it. I have since stopped playing Brawl, but if I went back to practice I would probably want work on fine tuning my skills. Instead of getting a SHDL, I try for a SHDL with a silent laser at the end or maybe doing SHL and achieving different heights to stuff the CPU's approach. With snake's dacus I might fine tune it so I can do 10/10 attempts, then move onto say buffering dacus out of a move like jab perhaps.

Those are still execution things, but the other thing CPU can be used for is say trying to remove habits. At least with melee recently, I am trying to remove ever pummeling while getting a grab and instead throwing right away (there is a benefit to this in melee while I do not think it exists in brawl).

The CPU provides you with an animated object to play with. Figure out strats to use it.

 

[TOGOpuff]

Not all of us have Mayflash adapters

oh! Because you play on dolphin... i see... i was talking about online playing on wii with the wimmfi patch.

 

[Taco Emperor]

Obviously there are things such as character specific techs and knowing match ups that you need to know, but without human players, are CPU's decent training partners?

I've tried to look into this online before, and I've heard that CPU's can teach you some really bad habits, and I get that. There is only so much a CPU can do, and it's not like it can just learn to adapt.

Usually after practicing some tech skill and attack strings and whatever, I'll put the cursor on random, and I'll vary the CPU's level every now and again so I don't get used to fighting one level.

At the moment, I only have one friend who is willing to play with me, and I only see him about once a week. Problem is he doesn't even own the game, however I think he definitely has a good grasp on the game, and it's nice playing against an actual thinking human. But I don't think that's enough, I can't really gauge whether or not I am actually improving. After fighting CPU's for a few hours or however long I may play, I'll usually feel more confident. But once my friend comes over and say he picks Marth and spams counter or something, I have no clue how to deal with it.

I'm really trying to get better, I've always loved the smash series since the N64 days, but I just sort of recently got into the competitive aspect of the game. I watch a ton of matches to try and learn how top players use them, and sometimes even just for fun or to pass time. I read guides to have a better understanding of my character. I'm really trying to get better, it's just hard without people.

My apologies if this isn't the place to put this, or if threads like this have been done to death. I like to play mostly P:M and Brawl, I've been playing a bit more Brawl as of late because I feel smash 4 will probably be closer to Brawl than P:M, so I'm just wanting some skill to carry over.

Obviously there are things such as character specific techs and knowing match ups that you need to know, but without human players, are CPU's decent training partners?

I've tried to look into this online before, and I've heard that CPU's can teach you some really bad habits, and I get that. There is only so much a CPU can do, and it's not like it can just learn to adapt.

Usually after practicing some tech skill and attack strings and whatever, I'll put the cursor on random, and I'll vary the CPU's level every now and again so I don't get used to fighting one level.

At the moment, I only have one friend who is willing to play with me, and I only see him about once a week. Problem is he doesn't even own the game, however I think he definitely has a good grasp on the game, and it's nice playing against an actual thinking human. But I don't think that's enough, I can't really gauge whether or not I am actually improving. After fighting CPU's for a few hours or however long I may play, I'll usually feel more confident. But once my friend comes over and say he picks Marth and spams counter or something, I have no clue how to deal with it.

I'm really trying to get better, I've always loved the smash series since the N64 days, but I just sort of recently got into the competitive aspect of the game. I watch a ton of matches to try and learn how top players use them, and sometimes even just for fun or to pass time. I read guides to have a better understanding of my character. I'm really trying to get better, it's just hard without people.

My apologies if this isn't the place to put this, or if threads like this have been done to death. I like to play mostly P:M and Brawl, I've been playing a bit more Brawl as of late because I feel smash 4 will probably be closer to Brawl than P:M, so I'm just wanting some skill to carry over.

I totally feel you. When I practice, I only have one friend who plays competitively, and he only plays Meta Knight and Marth, so it's hard to practice against any other high-tiered characters, so I play against a lot of CPUs. While I think it is a way to practice, there are also some gaps in it, as follows:

-Computers don't know the metagame. They were programmed with how Nintendo thought people could play in 2007, and with the programmers' knowledge of the game, which can lead to some problems. For example, if you fight any level King Dedede, the CPU will never use the Dthrow chain-grab, instrumental to Dedede's game at higher levels of play. A CPU Diddy Kong will never pull out more than one banana at a time, when bananas are what make Diddy Kong 4th on the tier list in the first place.
-CPUs have crazy reaction time. Since the computer knows what moves you put in at the same time that you input them, CPUs at higher difficulty levels will react unrealistically fast to many attacks that all but the best players won't see coming.
-CPUs are subject to illegitimate tactics. For instance, playing as Snake and spamming uncharged Mortars leaves even a Level 9 Meta Knight helpless, but is a comically useless strategy against a human.

In conclusion, I conclusively conclude (I like that word) that while playing CPUs is no substitute for playing actual players, it can help you hone your skills top the point that you can face real players effectively in battle, and so is a big part of training.

 

[WT!]

Hey! I can beat you with other high tiers! And I'll prove it today!

 

[MetroidFan4Life]

I normally practice on lvl 9 CPU's since they react more like real players

 

[WT!]

Serious mis

I normally practice on lvl 9 CPU's since they react more like real players

Serious mistake there. Level 9 computers will perfect shield everything and have inhuman reaction time in general. Ask Mew2King, who practices against level 8s, as do I.

 

[infiniteV115]

Playing against CPUs is pretty much useless outside of trying to learn the basics of a character and get familiar and comfortable with their moveset/movement/playstyle/etc. Basically you should be fighting CPUs if you're trying to 'pick up' a character

I guess since CPUs airdodge a ****ton, playing against them will also get lower level players to start noticing airdodge habits more quickly...but after you start looking for things like that, you don't need CPU practice anymore, really.

 

[PKBeam]

they roll a fair bit, so you COULD use them to learn how to read.