Is Falco #1 Now?

[Hakkat]

He seems amazing in P:M.

His laser is amazing, his jab combo is inescapable, his shine sends enemies flying even at low percents, and he has good power too. (I still main Fox due to MUCH better speed and a MUCH better DD), but Project M made Falco amazing. His Dair spikes and is an amazing edgeguard, and his Phantasm recovery spikes like a meteor smash (like his Dair), which gives him an amazing recovery advantage (horizontally, because the tradeoff is that Fire Bird sucks).

Thoughts?

 

[Giygacoal]

Phantasm is a meteor smash. Dair is a spike.

 

[Planet Piss]

His laser is amazing

Melee

his jab combo is inescapable

Directional Influence

his shine sends enemies flying even at low percents

Melee

he has good power

Melee

Project M made Falco amazing

Nah, made him Falco

His Dair spikes

spikes

Wait, Project M made his dair SPIKE? WHAT THE ****, PMBR?

I would actually make the argument that Falco's tendency to spawn at KO percentages makes him less viable in light of seemingly every other character's heightened offstage/gimping potential. Yeah, he's still Falco, but on the negative side of things, he's still Falco.

 

[Hakkat]

OK then...Lol, but I still think that he is really good and not all of those things are melee only. His laser still rocks and his shine still sends enemies flying

 

[standardtoaster]

his dair spiked in melee

 

[trash?]

It didn't spike fully in the PAL version (which should be the version that should be in P:M anyway but shhhhh no arguing today), but it did in NTSC, which is what P:M falco is.

 

[Strong Badam]

I would actually make the argument that Falco's tendency to spawn at KO percentages makes him less viable in light of seemingly every other character's heightened offstage/gimping potential. Yeah, he's still Falco, but on the negative side of things, he's still Falco.

it's funny because no matter how extreme we make characters' punishing games against spacies, they never manage to have a positive MU with them.
it's almost as if their neutral games are such that you can't design around them effectively.

 

[Player -0]

Not that I'm superawesome at P:M or anything but isn't Sonic pretty overkill on the spacies? He can: get them off the stage fairly quickly and has amazing gimping tools such as the homing attack and the spring as well as recovering.

 

[Planet Piss]

it's funny because no matter how extreme we make characters' punishing games against spacies, they never manage to have a positive MU with them.
it's almost as if their neutral games are such that you can't design around them effectively.

I think the Falco MU has always been less strenuous for those who know how to abuse his volatility and gimp him. I don't really care if there isn't a positive MU (which there may be if we give it a couple years without changing much, but that's not going to happen), because if one edge-cancel out of a pillar combo can give me an opening to kill him in a couple moves then I'm satisfied.

his dair spiked in melee

No it doesn't, I promise.

 

[Kink-Link5]

And Wizards won't print utility Mythics, we swear.

 

[DMG]

Falco's Dair has been a True, non meteor cancel-able Spike, since the day I started playing NTSC Melee. I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Planet Piss]

Rofl guys calm down, it's obviously a spike. I was making a joke because OP was basically just describing Melee Falco.

 

[DMG]

I was aimed at OP actually

Like what the **** is he talking about

Guy makes so many threads and I try to read but my head hurts

 

[Strong Badam]

is everyone ready for the falco buffs?

 

[DMG]

Should check out my Soda line

 

[Ace55]

it's funny because no matter how extreme we make characters' punishing games against spacies, they never manage to have a positive MU with them.

Bowser.

*Though he still gets ***** by Fox.

 

[ph00tbag]

it's funny because no matter how extreme we make characters' punishing games against spacies, they never manage to have a positive MU with them.
it's almost as if their neutral games are such that you can't design around them effectively.

Well, at least with Falco, it's really as simple as giving the character a means to initiate through or despite Falco's laser game. I'm not sure if any characters beat Falco that didn't beat him in Melee, but enough characters have been given straight up anti-Falco tactics that I think Falco's overall position on the tier list has actually dropped.

 

[DMG]

I disagree with that. I really don't think characters were given that much anti Falco stuff. People have broader things like CG's or better than average edge guarding. Those are all negative against FF's or bad recoveries, not tools vs Falco onstage. Bowser is the only one that comes to mind.

People don't have solid ways to initiate or gain the edge on him in neutral. People have great tools once he messes up to the point of getting grabbed or off stage, but it really seems like the only things mitigating lasers this time are things like crawling or movement options added in like Glide Toss/DACUS.

 

[SpiderMad]

but it really seems like the only things mitigating lasers this time are things like crawling or movement options added in like Glide Toss/DACUS.

There's a lot of reflect/absorb options as well, being buffed from Brawl (ROB/Pit side-b down-b, Ness/Lucas down-b with a JC) or Melee (GnW better bucket)

 

[Master WGS]

I thought Falco was the best in Melee, so...

 

[0RLY]

Chain grabs vs spacies doesn't even affect them if they can just ban FD. Every other stage has platforms in abundance

 

[leelue]

GHZ has hella platforms

 

[SmashAmass]

Here's the thing, they kept Falco's meta-game the same... nearly identical in fact, and that's the problem. Fox and Falco have been such versatile characters through the whole series, like the Swiss army knife of characters. They have everything you need to get out of a tough spot, but some things work better than other. Why is this a bad thing? Because it's a getaway ticket for the flaws of other characters, since every character has some sort of flaw (Pikachu has poor spacing, Ganondorf has poor horizontal speed and easily edge-guarded, Peach has poor KO potential at low percentages, etc.) While I am in full support of keeping the meta-game in tact, I do believe a DPS output nerf would be fair to encourage comboing and offensive play.

 

[SpiderMad]

I think I heard lasers do less damage now

 

[SmashAmass]

I think I heard lasers do less damage now

It's not much of a nerf, but I guess it's appropriate enough.

 

[SpiderMad]

I wonder if it doing less damage means it's also less hitstun

 

[SmashAmass]

I wonder if it doing less damage means it's also less hitstun

I bet there's a way to turn up the hitstun from less damage dealt, it's probably possible. If not that's a real bummer, I just mean the actual percentages of damage being reduced, but not the KO potential (meaning they have to work harder to score that KO and effectively focus more on the character's strengths).

 

[SpiderMad]

I bet there's a way to turn up the hitstun from less damage dealt

I think that's one of the few things they can't do

 

[ph00tbag]

I disagree with that. I really don't think characters were given that much anti Falco stuff. People have broader things like CG's or better than average edge guarding. Those are all negative against FF's or bad recoveries, not tools vs Falco onstage. Bowser is the only one that comes to mind.

DK has a similar buff to Bowser, and basically has a free KO for baiting a laser at dash attack range, which cuts off a pretty hefty portion of Falco's game plan. Others appear to have stronger projectile games, and so can lock Falco down better. I'm not saying there's a sudden influx of characters that beat Falco. Bowser's the only on that could be argued to have gotten to that point. What I'm saying is that Falco doesn't make as much of the cast totally obsolete as he did in Melee, and that's enough to make him less powerful overall.

 

[Deleted member]

i think fox is better than falco. sheik is probably better than falco too.peach is still pretty close. idk he's not that great tbh. still tier 1 but certainly not as oppressive as melee falco.

 

[leelue]

Even after playing characters that aren't sonic recently (which colored my perception for a long time, and probably always will (rip)), I think Falco is solidly not #2 in this game.

 

[MVP]

no he's not....

 

[DMG]

i think fox is better than falco. sheik is probably better than falco too.peach is still pretty close. idk he's not that great tbh. still tier 1 but certainly not as oppressive as melee falco.

Fox #1 all day. Falco mayyyy give the #2 spot to Sheik, but I think south of that there's not many characters in a position to challenge his spot. Peach can have some funky looking MU's with the Brawl characters and some of them seem really uncertain or harder to win than if you just went Fox Falco Marth or Sheik. Like perfect example, Peach vs Snake or Lucas. Marth Falcon and Jiggs are kind of out of the running for Falco's glory.

 

[ELI-mination]

especially marth

 

[SwordsRbroken]

especially marth

unviable character

rip marth 2001-2013

 

[Fortress]

EDIT: Image gone, post irrelevant.

 

[Deco-Nii]

lol? i eat sonic mains