Is Chaingrabbing actually not that important at the top level of play?

[Winston]

There are only two "top" ICs players that I know of (that place well in major tourneys), being Chu and Wobbles. Of the two I've seen more Chu vids, and they're more recent.

With that bias out of the way, my question is:

Is chaingrabbing really that important/is the IC's "0-death chaingrab" overrated?

It might just be Chu's personal idiosyncracies as a player but in almost all of his match vids, even against fox/falco/falcon, he rarely does the dthrow dair chaingrab at all. Most of his grabs when he has nana available are used to blizzard > smash > techchase or something.

If chiangrabbing really worked that well, and he was playing to win in tourneys, wouldn't it make more sense to attempt it every time he landed a grab with nana around?

For reference, I think this happens a lot throughout his matches with Jiano at pound 2.

 

[Binx]

the smashes are easier to do there is little chance of messing up and the opponent doesnt have an opportunity to escape, chu is a great player and can read techs and reactions faster than most, his style of play isnt practical for everyone. From what I understand all chain grabs save wobbles can be DIed out of, you will see Chu use them on occasion but I think its more of a switch it up kind of thing cause you are expecting to be smashed so arent worrying about chain throw DI.

I personally dont chain throw very often, I did it once today out of about 10 matches and it got me about 80% before he escaped it, but if I did that primarily he would learn to get away and it would be tough on me when I needed them.

 

[Lixivium]

If you watch Chu's matches from OC2 (a year ago) you'll see he uses the D-air chaingrab a lot more often, even against people like M2K and KDJ. He doesn't use it much against PC Chris, and I suspect it's because PC can get out of it consistently.

 

[pockyD]

dthrow dair is inconsistent on most characters

 

[bËst^]

Chaingrabbing is a way to **** ypur opponent totally. 0% to kill sounds pretty good, doesn't it? so IC's chaingrabbing is very powerful technique and if you can handle it, why not to use it. and most of the pros can do it very well.

so it is very important but not vital for the IC's. I myself do pretty well in Europe (or at least in Finland =P) and I'm not so aggressive what comes to chaingrabbing. so I think IC's can be mastered also withput chaining. I thin both, Chu and Wobbles, can do very well also without chaining but like I said... why not to use it? >_>

 

[Winston]

I thin both, Chu and Wobbles, can do very well also without chaining but like I said... why not to use it? >_>

That's my reasoning in thinking that it's overhyped (i.e. people are VERY fond of saying, in wobbling arguments, "ice climbers 0-death you with chaingrabs anyway"), because if chu doesn't do it much there must be a good reason.

A lot of things in this game are overhyped ><... thanks for the responses guys, they make sense.

EDIT: pockyD, notice I said in vids vs fox/falco/falcon, the fastfallers... I don't expect much dthrow dair vs peach or marth =\

 

[pockyD]

dthrow/dair can be escaped by fox (pretty easily) and falco (not as easily)

it does work on falcon though

 

[Binx]

I cant seem to get the timing right for Falcon, I always dair way too early.

 

[Delphiki]

I have been thinking about this a lot, because at OC3 I did not see one CG from either Chu or Wobbles. I don't have an answer to why not. It seems that it's best to CG as long as it gets you more damage than the smash will. Even if your opponent gets out by the say, 3rd CG, that's still 3 blizzards, 3 throws, and (depending on CG) 3 dairs. That's a hell of a lot of damage from only one opening, and MUCH MUCH BETTER than grab, blizzard, throw, Smash.

I'll ask one of them at SCC for us all.

 

[pockyD]

well often if you rack up damage on the grab (i.e. blizzard) they will be able to set their DI and escape the regrab

a quick throw (grab -> dthrow -> dair) adds like 8-10 dmg or something though and will catch them missing their DI a large amount of the time. i doubt you ever get a 3rd grab on a good player though unless they are worried about DI-ing a potentially finishing smash

 

[Wobbles]

Delphiki; you didn't see me CG Zarelid, Blood of the Fallen, DSF, and DJ Combo from 0-death?

Edge chaingrabs, d-throw d-air mixed with f-tilts to make them mash instead of DI, reverse d-throw d-air if they prove capable of escaping the normal one... and failing all of that, there are pretty good ways to screw up the DI from finishing smashes if you want to get an edgeguard. Or rather, I like to make them DI too far to return well, and let them onto the level where I can edge chaingrab until finishing percent.

Chaingrabs are pretty useful, I thought.

 

[Delphiki]

Delphiki; you didn't see me CG Zarelid, Blood of the Fallen, DSF, and DJ Combo from 0-death?

Edge chaingrabs, d-throw d-air mixed with f-tilts to make them mash instead of DI, reverse d-throw d-air if they prove capable of escaping the normal one... and failing all of that, there are pretty good ways to screw up the DI from finishing smashes if you want to get an edgeguard. Or rather, I like to make them DI too far to return well, and let them onto the level where I can edge chaingrab until finishing percent.

Chaingrabs are pretty useful, I thought.

Most of your matches happened when I was watching NorCal matches....I was torn between two loves But from Chu in the last few rounds I saw no CGs, even against characters that can be easily chaingrabbed. Instead he was mostly techchasing from B/F/Dthrow....even when he had two Climbers

pocky - just because your opponent sets their DI doesn't mean you can't make them set the WRONG DI. But I do agree on the quick throws. No DI almost always equals a regrab.

 

[cloudz]

Delphiki; you didn't see me CG Zarelid, Blood of the Fallen, DSF, and DJ Combo from 0-death?

Edge chaingrabs, d-throw d-air mixed with f-tilts to make them mash instead of DI, reverse d-throw d-air if they prove capable of escaping the normal one... and failing all of that, there are pretty good ways to screw up the DI from finishing smashes if you want to get an edgeguard. Or rather, I like to make them DI too far to return well, and let them onto the level where I can edge chaingrab until finishing percent.

Chaingrabs are pretty useful, I thought.

can you explain the "i like to make them DI to far to return well" how would somebody go about doing that?

 

[Wobbles]

Using alternate finishers to confuse their DI; when you know how they ::want:: to DI your smashes or CG's, you send them the wrong way. This means that you get them to DI with the hit and die earlier.

Example: Charge a forward-smash, then up-throw and release. This gives you the reverse hit of the f-smash and sends them behind you. You can do the same thing against some characters with down-throw and down-smash.

Another one is back-throw b-air. It's faster and surprising. Once they're used to the forward smash reversal, this will scare them even more.

Reverse d-throw d-air into a backwards forward smash is really potent. The reverse tends to confuse how they want to DI, and you also get the d-air's damage tacked onto the smash. Plus, once they see that they're behind you, they will DI that way to escape; once the smash comes down, they DI with it.

This sort of stuff can get you earlier kills, particularly against fast fallers or those who are easy to edgeguard (Sheik, for instance). If the infinite is banned, you can't rely on your opponent's not knowing how to escape d-throw d-air, so you'll need alternate deadly grab combos.

Also: today in some friendlies I was managing to 0-death my friend's Marth using the edge chaingrab. It made me feel good.

 

[choknater]

lmfao wow wobbles is using my tricks now. j/k we all invent them ourselves i guess.

azn_lep knows of many inescapables. it's situational, and depends on the character and %... but they are still inescapable. for example, reverse dair on falcon up to like 150% and higher is inescapable. if you don't mess up lawl

i think even with smash di

 

[AzN_Lep]

Reverse d-throw d-air into a backwards forward smash is really potent. The reverse tends to confuse how they want to DI, and you also get the d-air's damage tacked onto the smash. Plus, once they see that they're behind you, they will DI that way to escape; once the smash comes down, they DI with it.

QFT

Chainthrowing is important at top level play, it's silly to think otherwise. To think "0-death" is overrated is mind boggling. What's better than taking a stock with one grab? If you can perform that at high levels of play, it's far more useful than trying to skillfully mind game your way to victory. Take wobbling for example. If you are allowed to wobble, and you grab an opponent, why bother try to be clutch with chain throws. It'd be dumb not to just wobble away that stock. The final matches Chu had at OC3 were against M2K and PC. Chain grabbing Marth is a pretty difficult task to do, especially when the Marth is M2K. Chu probably thought he'd just settle for the damage. As far as his match with PC, PC was putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on Chu, so he may have been a bit rattled.

On another note, d-throw -> d-air -> d-air -> d-smash is too hawt. I made that all by myself, choknater stole it from me LOL. Nah I'm kiddin choknater combo is too good.

Edit: I edge chaingrabbed (are we calling it that now) my friends Jiggs from 0 to death, twice. d-throw (tilt so Nana doesn't jab) -> grab -> grab -> blizzard -> d-throw (tilt again) -> grab -> grab -> blizzard -> d-throw -> u-smash (cuz they're DIing towards the stage in fear on an f-smash) Wow, that sounds complicated looking back on it, but it happens really fast with Jiggs.

 

[Delphiki]

Pat I posted that combo in the Samus thread. The timing is a bit later on her than on Jiggs, but it's a zero-death on any character. You can even do it with a bit of luck in the middle of the stage - a 2 in 4 chance of getting another grab, 2 in 4 for a smash.

Wobbles, when you talk about Ut-Fsmash, how would that mess up DI? Shouldn't they be DIing up anyways? Whether or not that's the best choice, it surely is if you may end up launching yourself full speed into a wall.

 

[Wobbles]

Delphiki: You should be DI'ing the smash up and against for maximum survival. DI'ing straight up does not offer maximum DI and causes them to die earlier. Plus if you scare them enough, you can start landing early down-throw up-smashes like this.

Or, against a Fox, you can do what I do, which is charge the smash and make it miss. That causes them to DI straight into another grab--assuming they're DI'ing up or towards you--and lets you grab them again. If they weren't confused before, they certainly are now.

 

[Buuman]

Guys I have a quick question with some of the aerials you can pull off with nana during a grab. Now let's say I'm doing the chain grab with the down throw dair...do I want to l cancel the dair? Just wondering cause atm I don't and the chain throw gets very inconsistent. Same thing with the fair. Just started picking up ice climbers a few days ago. So still testing out the combos and grabs and such. Well who ever can get back to me on this would be awesome. Thanks

 

[Binx]

Guys I have a quick question with some of the aerials you can pull off with nana during a grab. Now let's say I'm doing the chain grab with the down throw dair...do I want to l cancel the dair? Just wondering cause atm I don't and the chain throw gets very inconsistent. Same thing with the fair. Just started picking up ice climbers a few days ago. So still testing out the combos and grabs and such. Well who ever can get back to me on this would be awesome. Thanks

I usually L cancel the dair but I really dont think it matters, you have plenty of time for a headbutt and another throw with or without it.

 

[Xephalon]

chain grabbing is a very useful thing especially when you are ice climbers, but having to attack than grab is more of a mind game, such as you can use an aggro strategy such as WD-Dsmash for the stock, then the next stock the opponent will expect an attack and shields, but you decide to chain grab him to death, leaving him confused.

 

[Winston]

Chainthrowing is important at top level play, it's silly to think otherwise. To think "0-death" is overrated is mind boggling. What's better than taking a stock with one grab? If you can perform that at high levels of play, it's far more useful than trying to skillfully mind game your way to victory. Take wobbling for example. If you are allowed to wobble, and you grab an opponent, why bother try to be clutch with chain throws. It'd be dumb not to just wobble away that stock. The final matches Chu had at OC3 were against M2K and PC. Chain grabbing Marth is a pretty difficult task to do, especially when the Marth is M2K. Chu probably thought he'd just settle for the damage. As far as his match with PC, PC was putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on Chu, so he may have been a bit rattled.

.

I think you misunderstand my point. Obviously, IF YOU CAN EXECUTE IT CONSISTENTLY, then a 0-death chaingrab is awesome. And obviously, if wobbling is legal and you're in a position to do it, then it's an extremely powerful tactic.

Maybe I phrased my question wrong. I meant, really, is the ICs' ability to take a stock with a single grab (in tourneys where wobbling is banned) overrated, in a similar way that fox's flatland drillshine infinite used to be overrated? (Although it'd be great if you drillshined peach to death on FD, most foxes would settle for a grab.)

 

[Speedsk8er]

Edge chaingrabs, d-throw d-air mixed with f-tilts to make them mash instead of DI, reverse d-throw d-air if they prove capable of escaping the normal one...

Holy hell, I NEVER thought of that one. Thank you for that mindgame. O_O

 

[siresword]

I think you misunderstand my point. Obviously, IF YOU CAN EXECUTE IT CONSISTENTLY, then a 0-death chaingrab is awesome. And obviously, if wobbling is legal and you're in a position to do it, then it's an extremely powerful tactic.

Maybe I phrased my question wrong. I meant, really, is the ICs' ability to take a stock with a single grab (in tourneys where wobbling is banned) overrated, in a similar way that fox's flatland drillshine infinite used to be overrated? (Although it'd be great if you drillshined peach to death on FD, most foxes would settle for a grab.)

even though i don't main IC's ( ) i think that this post sums up what this thread was originally about.
taking a stock from *one* grab ...should...? be overrated or feared because it sums up the power of the ice climbers.