Anther
Smash Champion
I don't think a modern game designer would be oblivious to what people did with previous installments of a game. x_X.
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Is Brawl Truly less technical?
- Thread starter Takalth
- Start date
A New England Winter
Smash Lord
Actually, L-cancel is still in. To quote Gimpy...
Okay then...Next point...Gimpyfish said:
I can't think of anything to say to this other than the simple fact that they probably weren't trying to get rid of WDing. I mean, wavelanding is in still, done differently to be sure, but if they wanted to get rid of wavedash, they'd've changed the landing engine in the way you said they should. It's not like WDing is a real move, anyways. It's a glitch. A bug in the game. Of course it's going to get rectified.
And, by the way, and I think this was overlooked by some...
There's your f**king Wavedash.Gimpyfish said:
What DEPTH? A very slow, short-ranged aerial dodge that lasts for, what, one second? And then you free fall helplessly? Compare that to the ability of an air dodge you can do multiple times, and you get your Up-B, second jump, attacks, and all that back after half a second. This new air dodge add depth, not skewing it.
I'm getting tired of people saying that just because a move is a bit easier to do, it automatically a lack of depth, when it's more about application of these moves than the controlling of it. If they want to make L Cancel a bit easier to do, then fine, no skin off my fat ***, but it's used in the same way as before. If they want to make the air dodge not suck, then don't let me stop them. And it's not like most of your techniques aren't still in, along with more that weren't before.
I'm absolutely sick of people's desperate attempts to badmouth this game every chance they get, when most of them have never even played it. Why is it that, just because it's not Melee 2.0, all of the sudden it's crap, or it "Lacks depth"? It's got pretty much EVERY TECHNIQUE from Melee. I just can't understand it...Why badmouth the new? Do you fear change?
MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
To anyone that thinks they are going to dumb down the game for casuals, I hate to say it but, your wrong. In case you have forgotten, Melee is an extremely easy game to play, its a game that many people can learn in a few days time. Will they be good at it? Of course not by a competitive standard, but that has nothing to do with how easy/hard playing it is or how much depth the game has. Taking away something like wave dashing has no impact on someone new to smash, they don't even know what wave dashing is. Melee was originally geared towards casual gamers, not Brawl.
Way to overreact and throw a tantrum like a child.
First of all, nobody is complaining about WDing being gone. Get that out of your head before you turn this into another ****ty WD topic. Now to address the rest of your so-called "arguments."
Point two: What gimpy mentioned in that quote is not a wavedash. Not sure if you know the difference between a wavedash and a waveland, but what you quoted happens to be a waveland. Know why? You're in the air, about to land, and you slide on the ground. Wavelanding isn't nearly as useful as wavedashing, but that isn't what this topic is about anyways.
It's not the fact that a move is easier that reduces depth. That just lowers the amount of skill needed to play the game well. What reduces depth is when a move is automatic (sweetspots, tether recoveries, l-cancel), predictable (new airdodge, sweetspots), or removed completely (DJC, WDing, controlling where you airdodge).
Most of the Melee techniques are in Brawl, but they are simplified or less useful. And now why the **** won't anyone tell me what techniques Brawl added that will contribute to the depth of the game? I've asked the question several times by now and I still haven't gotten a decent response (I can come up with only one, but let's see if anyone else can think of it).
First of all, nobody is complaining about WDing being gone. Get that out of your head before you turn this into another ****ty WD topic. Now to address the rest of your so-called "arguments."
Thank you for telling us something we already knew and admitted to. Now how about you actually discuss the topic at hand. L-cancelling is now automatic as long as you fast fall while doing an aerial. It is not the same thing as the L-cancel in SSB64 or SSBM. This is dumbing the game down because you do not have to have skill of any kind to perform it. Hell, you don't have to do anything other than attack and land. Timing is not an issue. My five year old brother will be performing l-cancels completely by accident. Now tell me how this is not making the game too simple when a 5-year old child can pull off what's considered an advanced technique?
Point one: WDing is a real move...or else you...you know, you wouldn't be able to do it. Because it wouldn't exist. It is not a glitch or a bug. The black hole trick is a glitch. Jigglypuff's shield break is a bug. WDing is a combination of jumping (a real move) and airdoding towards the ground (also a real move). The sliding is a result of the physics engine and traction of each character. It's simply an unforseen by-product of the Melee engine.
Point two: What gimpy mentioned in that quote is not a wavedash. Not sure if you know the difference between a wavedash and a waveland, but what you quoted happens to be a waveland. Know why? You're in the air, about to land, and you slide on the ground. Wavelanding isn't nearly as useful as wavedashing, but that isn't what this topic is about anyways.
You know there's a pretty **** nice delay after airdodging before you can do anything, right? Anyone with half a brain can kick the **** out of you before you gain control of your character and it's made that much easier because they can predict where you will go because the airdodge is based on momentum. So this adds depth how? In Melee, you could control where you go, which added depth because you could mind-**** your opponent.
It's not the fact that a move is easier that reduces depth. That just lowers the amount of skill needed to play the game well. What reduces depth is when a move is automatic (sweetspots, tether recoveries, l-cancel), predictable (new airdodge, sweetspots), or removed completely (DJC, WDing, controlling where you airdodge).
Most of the Melee techniques are in Brawl, but they are simplified or less useful. And now why the **** won't anyone tell me what techniques Brawl added that will contribute to the depth of the game? I've asked the question several times by now and I still haven't gotten a decent response (I can come up with only one, but let's see if anyone else can think of it).
Shadowclaw
Smash Cadet
You seem to have been missing some things.
Second, making the game easier to control does not automatically mean it's been dumbed down to a point where "you do not have to have skill of any kind". L-canceling is not automatic; you need to fast-fall first, and not everyone fast-falls all the time before attacking. Timing is an issue because you need to know at what height you can perform an attack while fast-falling to get the best results. As it has been said, the depth comes from how you can apply techniques, not how you perform them. Your five year old brother may perform l-cancels by accident, but I doubt he will be able to apply them effectively and gain advantage from it, which is what advanced techniques do.
Two: I'm pretty sure he already knows what the difference is. Not sure if you actually read his post, which mentions wavelanding separately. He was just mentioning how the landing mechanics still allow for a potential wavedash, which means they were most likely not specifically targeting it for removal, as they could have just modified that aspect instead, without modifying the airdodge mechanics.
Finally, skill is not only being able to perform a difficult move, it is also knowing when and how to use it to your advantage, depending on the situation. You already said an easier move does not reduce depth, but then you argue saying that many techniques were simplified; that's a bit contradictory. The key word in all this mess is to ADAPT and discover new depths, like you had to do for Melee some years ago. Don't expect all the "depth" to be lying before you in a silver plate just after a few days of playing brawl - and even less before it even comes out.
First, he was replying to another post, which stated there was no L-canceling in Brawl. Just because you, or even the majority know something doesn't mean everyone does.
Second, making the game easier to control does not automatically mean it's been dumbed down to a point where "you do not have to have skill of any kind". L-canceling is not automatic; you need to fast-fall first, and not everyone fast-falls all the time before attacking. Timing is an issue because you need to know at what height you can perform an attack while fast-falling to get the best results. As it has been said, the depth comes from how you can apply techniques, not how you perform them. Your five year old brother may perform l-cancels by accident, but I doubt he will be able to apply them effectively and gain advantage from it, which is what advanced techniques do.
One: WD'ing was most likely not an intended use of the physics engine (whether its a bug or not). But again, it was a product of the Melee engine. Brawl has a different engine, with different characteristics, which obviously do not allow for the so-called WD-ing.
Two: I'm pretty sure he already knows what the difference is. Not sure if you actually read his post, which mentions wavelanding separately. He was just mentioning how the landing mechanics still allow for a potential wavedash, which means they were most likely not specifically targeting it for removal, as they could have just modified that aspect instead, without modifying the airdodge mechanics.
You know you can't do absolutely anything after airdodging in Melee until you hit the ground (or get hit), right? Sure, you may trick your opponent by moving in a direction he does not expect, but then you can't do anything else. With the new airdodge, you can do absolutely anything after airdodging, including attack, jump or airdodge again. This adds depth because it gives you more freedom and allows for more tactics. For example, you run at someone who is about to receive you with a f-smash, but just before it hits, you short hop-airdodge past him and hit him with an attack of your own (say, bair). No depth you say? You just have to get creative.
Did you actually read the first post of this thread? The OP has many points worth considering as for what you mentioned of auto-sweetspots and such, and there is also a latter contribution of Smooth Criminal, also presenting an interesting thing that adds depth to the game.
Finally, skill is not only being able to perform a difficult move, it is also knowing when and how to use it to your advantage, depending on the situation. You already said an easier move does not reduce depth, but then you argue saying that many techniques were simplified; that's a bit contradictory. The key word in all this mess is to ADAPT and discover new depths, like you had to do for Melee some years ago. Don't expect all the "depth" to be lying before you in a silver plate just after a few days of playing brawl - and even less before it even comes out.
A New England Winter
Smash Lord
You are right about this much. I did act very childish, and I apologize for that. However...
I did say that simplifying inputs would make it better without detracting from depth. Time to explain my reasoning. You see, Melee, even without all of these Advanced Techniques, was a pretty deep game. You could string any technique with any technique, thusly yielding different playstyles and different ways to play. Add the fact that the characters all (mostly played differently, and you've got even more variation. Now, start applying things such as Dash Dancing, Crouch Canceling, Sheild Grabbing, and all those other techniques you've got stored up here. Suddenly, you've got one of the, if not the, deepest fighting games ever.
Now, say you were a casual fan of SSBM, who has never heard of these terms, and you look up a video on YouTube, just for the **** of it, and you see people doing really cool moves, playing at a very high speed, and you think, "Holy s**t, this is awesome! I want to do this!" With Melee, you had to put in a lot of work to achieve techs such as WD and Shuffling, and for a casual fan, it'll seem daunting, if not impossible. Granted, not everyone is like that, but still.
Now here comes along Brawl, with it's easier-to-do moves and more ways to make yourself better in the game. All of a sudden, you've got a whole slew of new and interesting techniques at your disposal. All of a sudden, that 5-star, 2000+ view, 100+ favorited video on Youtube isn't so far away. All of a sudden, you're playing like a pro. All of a sudden, you're awesome.
And then you enter a tourney, and BAM, you get dropped out in your first match against someone who actually knows his s**t. Someone who's honed his skills and learned what to use when, where, and how. He understands the true depths of this game. And now that it's easier for him to unload hell onto his opponent, you stand no chance.
So you think, "Oh, alright, I'll just play a bit more", and start learning more. You learn the proper application of Shuffling. You learn Pivoting and Shield Grabbing. Air Dodge, Sweet Spot, Edge Guard, you learn 'em all. And then you go back to the tourney next year. You meet
up with that dude again in the tourney. And, while you still lose, you notice that you got him down to one stock and 60% damage. You feel awesome again, and you've gotten better.
You see now? The depth isn't gone, it's just easier to get to. If it were the ocean, Melee was getting to the bottom in a crappy submarine with half a tank of gas and half of oxygen, while Brawl is a considerably less crappy but still kinda rinkidink submarine with a full tank of oxygen, but only half a tank of gas.
tl:dr : F**k you, this took me an hour to type. Read it. >:D
So....a glitch then.
The bolded part was the part that was meant to be paid attention to. He basicly explained something that could, conceivably, replace WD, considering that fastfall l cancel could work the same if not with a bit of delay/harder to do. Also, wavedashing is that little sliding move you do on the ground that lets you do crap. Wavelanding is also a slide, but you do it after jump and then, amazingly, land. It's not rocket science.
1: I don't have half a brain.
2: You'd also know that that delay gives them time to get situated to start beating the **** out of you. Against a slower character like Bowser or DK, maybe that'd work, but faster characters like Falco or Marth or even Roy would easily move in on your disabled form and eat your soul. Of course it'd work in a situation where you're about to get spiked, but then again, so does the new one, only you need to plan it out more.
Read the story above. I think it effectively explains what I'd say in this situation.
Actually, from what I've read, Dash Dance, DI, Sheild Grab, Pivot, and others were actually better than their Melee iterations. But then again, I'm just a stupid noob, what do I know, right?
And to reply to your question, well, Tether Recovery seems nice, and Footstool Jump is also pretty cool, but I'd think the returning Shielding through platforms thing from ssbs6 or the moving while shooting thing would be good editions to the Tech arsenal.
Also...dude, my 100th post is so epic, it's serial...sweet :D
Also also...Shadowclaw said it waaaaaaaay better than I ever could have.
WeeklyJumpman
Smash Journeyman
I can tell you Brawl's more fun than Melee.
GreenKirby
Smash Master
Pics of your time machine! NOW!
Thank you for that insightful and off-topic post. Who was arguing with that?
One: Yeah, the Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 argument. I already understand that. I don't care about that. I care about having more control over my character. I like having more movement options (being able to turn around with B moves was nice).
Two: I saw him mention wavelanding, but then after quoting what is clearly a waveland, he calls it a wavedash. That's all I was pointing out.
I also think wavedashing was removed on purpose and wavelanding was kept in intentionally. It makes sense when you think about the direction they wanted to take Brawl in. Sakurai always said he wanted to make the game more about aerial combat. You take wavedashing out, and people (AT users at least) are more likely to get away from ground combat. Wavelanding was still kept in because it's performed after being in the air. That's just my opinion though (and one that I formed 5 minutes ago).
Your idea for the SH'd airdodge is nice and everything, but being realistic, there's no way you're going to be able to do that and BAir before you hit the ground again. The delay after the airdodge is way too long to allow it. I would personally love it if that wasn't the case (if it was just a bit shorter) because it would add more depth. No doubt about that. The nice delay messes that up though. It's a great idea on Nintendo's part, but the way I see it, it's executed poorly.
I knew someone would bring this up. I'm arguing two different points though. I'm saying that Brawl is being simplified way too much (all of the mentioned auto-whatever moves) and that it's having depth taken away (airdodge, nearly every character having the same jump/fall speeds). They are two separate ideas. Sorry for the confusion there.
@Xaoz: I get what you're saying with the whole tourney thing. Good example there. I have nothing to argue with.
Just because it wasn't recognized by the developers before being released doesn't make it a glitch. My point is that it uses a string of real intentional moves to perform something that the developers never knew was possible. Just because they didn't know about it doesn't make it a glitch. The topic isn't about that anyways though, so that's as far as I'll go into that subject.
Yeah, I get what you're saying. But a WL cannot replace a WD. That's the point I wanted to get across. WLing isn't nearly as useful because you have to do jump, fall, and use an aerial before it's actually performed and because it cannot be used consecutively like WDing could. It doesn't have the same "mindgame" potential that WD does.
1. It's an expression.
2. Yes, that is true, but you are much more predictable in Brawl. It's easy to know exactly where you'll go after you airdodge. Your opponent doesn't have to guess, making it that much easier for him to set up his attack.
Dash danceing was better for some characters (Sonic for the most part...didn't change for others), DI was made easier and more powerful (if this is better or not is debatable), and I don't see how Shield Grabs and Pivots are better in Brawl than Melee? What makes them better?
Footstool jump could be a good technique and I'm hoping it will be. We don't know if it's that useful yet though or if it's just going to be one of those "omg I accidentally did it" kinds of techs. The tether recovery being automatic isn't better in my opinion, but I guess other people who may have had difficulty pulling it off may see an improvement there.
Also, I hate making these horribly huge replies.
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Dang! Stupid class schedule.
*bookmarks*
I'll be back for this.
*bookmarks*
I'll be back for this.
Shadowclaw
Smash Cadet
@Xaoz: Nice 100th post 
And thanks for the comment, but we covered some different points too; mine was not that much better.
Back on topic!
Anyhow, the idea I came up with obviously involves air dodging as soon as you leave the ground (think of the WD timing) so that you can recover control over your character as soon as possible and perform the attack. Also, it may not work in every situation as well, but it does have potential uses. The main point of that is demonstrating that there are more applications to the new airdodge than it may seem right away; like I said, it's a matter of getting creative and explore the possibilities.
We could say that the first one serves mostly for mindgames, while the second one allows for more variety/freedom in recoveries. Let's say that mindgames are less present in that aspect, but then let's take into consideration the "auto-moves", which make recovery easier, forcing you to work harder on killing your opponent, mostly because edge-guarding is a lot less effective. You might very well need to leave the stage to intercept your enemy in the air more often, or come up with other strategies to ensure the KO. All in all, it means that since it takes less skill to recover, you will require more skill to KO your opponent, and mindgames will surely take a big part here (basically compensating for the earlier point). Anyhow, simplifying some controls doesn't mean the game is automatically worse; not everything has been simplified, and even so, it just means you'll have to focus more on other aspects of the game (such as tactics and mindgames), instead of button mashing (which will still be present, anyways).
But I must agree it is quite bothersome and time-consuming to do these. 
And thanks for the comment, but we covered some different points too; mine was not that much better. Back on topic!
Well, except that the people who used Wavedash are a minority (at least when compared to the casual crowd), so it would not make much change on the big picture. If I'm not mistaken, the core of the aerial combat now comes from the "increased floatiness", which allows for more aerial combo's. My main argument was that they could have removed wavedashing without modifying the airdodge mechanics. But like yours, that's only an opinion, and doesn't change the fact that it's gone; no point arguing over it.
Did you play the demo, or how do you know that the delay is too long to allow counter attacks? From what I read from Gimpy's thread, I only found "There is a short amount of time where you can't air dodge so that you can't just stay invincible in the air forever though.", which states nothing about how long do the dodging frames last.
Anyhow, the idea I came up with obviously involves air dodging as soon as you leave the ground (think of the WD timing) so that you can recover control over your character as soon as possible and perform the attack. Also, it may not work in every situation as well, but it does have potential uses. The main point of that is demonstrating that there are more applications to the new airdodge than it may seem right away; like I said, it's a matter of getting creative and explore the possibilities.
I still don't see how the new airdodge takes away depth; unless of course you mean the removal of wavedashing, which I'd rather not go into. If we just compare both, forgetting that wavedash exists, we have that the old one is moving into any direction briefly, then falling helplessly; while the new one is just dodging, but giving you full freedom afterwards.
We could say that the first one serves mostly for mindgames, while the second one allows for more variety/freedom in recoveries. Let's say that mindgames are less present in that aspect, but then let's take into consideration the "auto-moves", which make recovery easier, forcing you to work harder on killing your opponent, mostly because edge-guarding is a lot less effective. You might very well need to leave the stage to intercept your enemy in the air more often, or come up with other strategies to ensure the KO. All in all, it means that since it takes less skill to recover, you will require more skill to KO your opponent, and mindgames will surely take a big part here (basically compensating for the earlier point). Anyhow, simplifying some controls doesn't mean the game is automatically worse; not everything has been simplified, and even so, it just means you'll have to focus more on other aspects of the game (such as tactics and mindgames), instead of button mashing (which will still be present, anyways).
Which is why you must know how and when to apply the airdodge correctly. Mindgames still apply here, in both ends.
I'll quote Gimpy for this one:
Anyways, most techniques will require more testing when the game is out, so we can't mark any technique as being useless or ineffective just yet. Yes, there will surely be some of these, just like in melee, but many of them still have good potential.
Well, it's not like you're forced to do them.
But I must agree it is quite bothersome and time-consuming to do these. 
Sliq
Smash Master
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The next god**** person that says Brawl is a new game is getting punched in the throat.
That is like them announcing brawl, but now it is a cooking simulator with Nintendo's mascots. Then I come here and start complaining about it and someone goes, "lol brawl is a new game lololol!!!11 it isnt melee 2.0 nintendooo noes wut they r doin lol!!!1eleven."
That is like them announcing brawl, but now it is a cooking simulator with Nintendo's mascots. Then I come here and start complaining about it and someone goes, "lol brawl is a new game lololol!!!11 it isnt melee 2.0 nintendooo noes wut they r doin lol!!!1eleven."
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Xoaz, your other points were primarily addressed by the other folks here, but let me just reiterate (as I am quite famous/annoying for this) that the wavedash is not a glitch. Your definition of a glitch extends so far outside the programming that just about any combo that Sakurai never thought up can be considered a glitch. Falco's short-hop laser is far closer to a glitch than wavedashing is, but even that has no programming faults.
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=67
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=49
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=67
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=49
5150
Banned via Administration
a-****ing-men
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
wate wat
You mean saying Brawl doesn't play like Melee from a slight technical standpoint is the same thing as calling it a completely different game?
What I'm saying is that your comparison is unfair. We're not saying "SUPER MASH BUTTON LAWL IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED GAME" we're saying "don't expect it to play exactly like Melee"
You mean saying Brawl doesn't play like Melee from a slight technical standpoint is the same thing as calling it a completely different game?
What I'm saying is that your comparison is unfair. We're not saying "SUPER MASH BUTTON LAWL IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED GAME" we're saying "don't expect it to play exactly like Melee"
QFT.
1. Whether or not the Footstool Jump could be good depends on your character, really. Short characters, like Fox, Mario and Metaknight will have an easy time pulling this off and finding ways to incorporate it into their game because they have to get close anyway. Especially Fox, since Fox players are already so used to getting as close as possible and to jumping onto an opponent. Characters with long legs, like Samus, might not have as good a use for it because it'll mean moving beyond the character's safe zone.
2. As I've already talked about with Metroid_01, the new tether system will either suck or rock depending on one thing: how it behaves when you're unable to attach to the edge but could still attach to the stage. If it homes in on the edge even if it's futile (as in, even if the game knows it'll miss), then the new tether will suck horribly. If it goes straight, as in Melee, when it can't touch the edge, it'll be awesome.
I'm rapidly becoming sick of you, as well as your five thousand, one hundred and fifty lapdogs.
Punch my throat all you want, but it won't help you compensate in face of the fact that Brawl is a "new game". Brawl is an experience that is different from SSB64 and Melee, yet retains the core gameplay. It is a new, fresh adaptation of the same Smash gameplay.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
Fix'd, because quite frankly this clown (5150, not sliq)) has some of the worst elitism I've seen since old Dylan_Tnga.
DraginHikari
Emerald Star Legacy
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This is starting to get very old now.... This is all the same debates and points just under another topic title...
Takeshi245
Smash Champion
Welcome to Smashboards, DraginHikari.
As for Brawl being less technical, to me it seems so but I'll need further analysis before I can come to a definite conclusion.
Sliq
Smash Master
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WTF who the **** would they be?
Furthermore, my example was hyperbole for the sake of making my argument more clear.
Watch out guys, Psydon is getting sick of my crazy and kooky antics. If I keep it up, you all know what will happen!
Absolutely nothing.
New =/= Better you moron, so keep spouting "lol brawl is new," like that helps your argument any.
Welcome to humanity. It's highly recommended you depart immediately, as at the moment we're experiencing technical difficulties.
1. Flaming is not "crazy and kooky antics". And I'm not threatening you. You were right when you said that you're free to be a **** if you choose, and your freedom is not something to be challenged. However, people like you have no place here. This topic was created for constructive intellectual debate, and people like you invite nothing constructive at all. Hence I'm rapidly becoming sick of you.
2. Well, I've never said that just because Brawl is new, that it'll be better than Melee. I say that Brawl will be better than Melee because I'm optimistic concerning the game. I say "Brawl is a new game" because a great deal of the arguments made against Brawl adhere to the assumption that Brawl must be similar to, if not exactly like, Melee, because everybody knows Melee is perfect and the greatest fighting game ever made. Remove that assumption and a great deal of the argument become meaningless, since Brawl is like neither SSB64 or Melee, and we have no choice but to accept that and comment on the changes for what they are, not what we'd prefer was preserved from Melee.
Sliq
Smash Master
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My problem is that anytime anyone mentions anything that is in Brawl and not Melee, they think all they have to do is say, "Brawl isn't melee. It is a new game," and suddenly my argument is completely null and void, despite the fact that I was never arguing the Brawl and Melee are the same game/should be the same.
I hate the new snap recovery mechanic, and I am currently not too fond of the new l-canceling system, but all I have to do is idly mention either one of them and get barraged with a bunch of ******* telling me the Brawl is a new game, as if I didn't already understand that.
MY POINT IS THAT I BELIEVE THESE CHANGES ARE NOT FOR THE BEST. When you change something, there has to be a reason for it.
New Air Dodge System:
-To reduce skill gap (eliminate WD'ing)
-To eliminate accidental deaths when people air dodge when trying to tech
-To augment aerial combat (I don't believe this system will do this, but some argue it will; furthermore, aerial combat is already dominant in melee)
-To keep things fresh (i.e. no reason because new =/= better)
Auto Sweetspot/Tether:
-To reduce skill gap (sweet spotting done for you)
-To reduce emphasis on edge guarding (i.e. eliminate one of the more unique aspects of the game)
-To make slow strong characters better (more kills off of the side means less edgeguarding outside of edge hogging, and less gimpability)
-To keep things fresh (i.e. no reason because new =/= better)
Since it is done for you, automatically, the ability to sweetspot is no longer a necassary skill. Also, this removes the option of NOT sweet spotting, reducing depth.
Auto L-cancel/Easier L-cancel (i.e. most aerials have standard Melee l-canceled lag, and to eliminate ALL lag you simply FF before attacking)
-To reduce the skill gap (no longer need to be as technically sound in order to do well)
-To emphasize aerial combat (which is already dominant in Melee)
-To keep things fresh (i.e. no reason because new =/= better)
While you still need to time the FF and aerial, the error gap for these commands are HUGE (i.e. attack ANYTIME after you FF (unless I misunderstand Gimpyfish's explanation)), as opposed to the frames right before you land (which varies depending on if you hit your opponent, if you miss, or if you hit their shield). Furthermore, this new l-canceling is counter intuitive for slow characters with slow aerials, as the move might not even come out in time because you are FF'ing (i.e. no more l-canceling DK's fair or probably ANY of Ike's aerials).
In the bulleted lists, those are the viable reasons that I could think of for these changes. Notice how all of them include reducing skill gap? This may or may not be the case, but it APPEARS that way to me.
I've posted "intelligently" before in these types of threads, only to be responded with, "lol brawl is a nu gaem!!!!!!1one"
I swear to God if anyone quotes this and replies with anything even remotely close to "brawl is a new game" I will find you and burn your house down.
I really don't think the loss of the WD decreases the skill gap, because there are some who don't use it and can play-in tournaments-and do just fine. Personally, I've never wavedashed in a serious fight. If asked, I could do it just as easily as anyone else could (well, I might screw up because I don't do it often, but w/e), but I choose not to. I can play competently without it, and I'll be honest: it doesn't seem to help me that much (I can only imagine it'd help me when I play against a Marth, to help with outspacing that godd@mn sword, but it's not like I lose to every Marth I battle). I don't deny its usefulness, but I just don't need to use it.
And I main Samus.
So, what do I have to do to make up for not wavedashing? Whatever I must. Wouldn't that mean I'd have to work harder to accomplish something like that? I think so. And I think that'll be the same case for Brawl. Those who are so used to wavedashing will have to readapt their styles to not using it, which will require them to find ways around it, which will make them better players in the end. So, either way, those who have never wavedashed, and don't play to compensate, will be battling against superior players.
I'll admit, the recovery buffs are rather ridiculous and can't really be justified as anything other than Sakurai kissing noob butt, and as I explained in either this or another topic, the new tether system has a chance of sucking badly. But, at the same time, I think that in the end they'll make the game tougher, for the simple fact that we'll have to work harder to kill our opponents. That'll certainly increase the skill gap in my mind, because new players will have a harder time winning matches because they won't be as adept at anti-recovery, allowing the recovery buffs to truly work in their opponent's favour. Good players will get slightly longer matches, but that's about it.
I do not (not anymore, anyway) think that they'll be that big of a deal in the end. You said that it makes slow characters better. While this is true, slow characters also have to deal with slow aerial movement and, generally, subpar Up+Bs. Okay, sweetspotting is automatic now, but you could still easily whack someone away with a quick f-tilt at the last second. You can still edgehog. You can still go away from the stage to finish the job, you can still hit below the edge depending on the attacks your character has. And, of course, there are projectiles.
...Well, what do you know? Samus can do all of those things.
I think edgeguarding will still be a very important element of Brawl, but there'll be a greater emphasis on what you and your opponent do before and after your opponent grabs the edge, especially after. Punishing post-grab edge recovery will become much more prevalent.
As for the new L-cancel, I still wonder about that. Does it really activate only when you do an aerial after fastfalling, or will it activate if you are simply fastfalling and in the middle of an aerial animation, regardless of the order (in other words, you could fastfall and then attack or attack and then fastfall)?
And finally, I was wrong about you, and I'm happy for that. ^^
And I main Samus.
So, what do I have to do to make up for not wavedashing? Whatever I must. Wouldn't that mean I'd have to work harder to accomplish something like that? I think so. And I think that'll be the same case for Brawl. Those who are so used to wavedashing will have to readapt their styles to not using it, which will require them to find ways around it, which will make them better players in the end. So, either way, those who have never wavedashed, and don't play to compensate, will be battling against superior players.
I'll admit, the recovery buffs are rather ridiculous and can't really be justified as anything other than Sakurai kissing noob butt, and as I explained in either this or another topic, the new tether system has a chance of sucking badly. But, at the same time, I think that in the end they'll make the game tougher, for the simple fact that we'll have to work harder to kill our opponents. That'll certainly increase the skill gap in my mind, because new players will have a harder time winning matches because they won't be as adept at anti-recovery, allowing the recovery buffs to truly work in their opponent's favour. Good players will get slightly longer matches, but that's about it.
I do not (not anymore, anyway) think that they'll be that big of a deal in the end. You said that it makes slow characters better. While this is true, slow characters also have to deal with slow aerial movement and, generally, subpar Up+Bs. Okay, sweetspotting is automatic now, but you could still easily whack someone away with a quick f-tilt at the last second. You can still edgehog. You can still go away from the stage to finish the job, you can still hit below the edge depending on the attacks your character has. And, of course, there are projectiles.
...Well, what do you know? Samus can do all of those things.
I think edgeguarding will still be a very important element of Brawl, but there'll be a greater emphasis on what you and your opponent do before and after your opponent grabs the edge, especially after. Punishing post-grab edge recovery will become much more prevalent.
As for the new L-cancel, I still wonder about that. Does it really activate only when you do an aerial after fastfalling, or will it activate if you are simply fastfalling and in the middle of an aerial animation, regardless of the order (in other words, you could fastfall and then attack or attack and then fastfall)?
And finally, I was wrong about you, and I'm happy for that. ^^
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
*nods*
Even I, who doesn't play at the super-high technical level, can see that Brawl is being simplified in some areas. Easier recovery... ouch. Means guys like Sonic need to chase their foes off and finish them as opposed to simply knocking them away and edgeguarding.
It's nice to know that we're all talking sense here so far...
Even I, who doesn't play at the super-high technical level, can see that Brawl is being simplified in some areas. Easier recovery... ouch. Means guys like Sonic need to chase their foes off and finish them as opposed to simply knocking them away and edgeguarding.
It's nice to know that we're all talking sense here so far...
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
PaperLink
Smash Journeyman
Most people have argued his claim, yet some of you have just proceeded to flame him. You can tell him about other threads with similar topics, but don't just outright flame him.
Jeez.
Jeez.
Fletch
Smash Master
But Brawl is a new game!
But seriously, Sliq just owned this thread, I'd like to see anyone argue with the points he made. As far as we can tell from the demo (which may or may not be indicative of the final product), the game is being dulled down on the technical level on even more things that Sliq didn't even have to mention (i.e. game speed).
Look, dude, he made good points but there's more to it than that. Brawl seems less technical, or "dumbed down" because of what we're so used to. We have to look at what those changes can actually mean for the metagame; how people are going to adapt to those changes and where they'll go from there.
Chaosblade77
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,958
From what I saw and have read from non-pro players, the game speed is not actually slower. It was the lack of advanced techs like L-canceling and WDing that just made it seem slower.
Personally, I disagree with Sliq because he thinks the "new game" argument goes too far. But by that logic, Brawl is SSB64 3.0.
People are so **** pessimistic because they see that things changed from Melee, specifically advanced techniques. I can't stress enough that we did NOT know about Melee's advanced techniques before it's release!!
Hell, how long did it take the majority of the more difficult and more popular ATs to emerge? People have had FOUR DAYS with Brawl so far, not nearly the amount of time that it took to find Melee's ATs. I mean, L-Canceling wasn't figured out until the last day, who knows what else wasn't figured out, and what else has yet to be discovered.
Brawl is less technical on some levels. I agree with that. Some things were changed, removed, made easier and all of that, but at the same time, the average casual player didn't know some of these things existed. I know a lot of people who didn't know what a tether recovery was until I told them. Most of the people I know who play don't even know that L-Canceling exists; just because it's easier does not mean every 8 year old that picks up Brawl will be able to play a match with his mom and both of them will be L-Canceling and tether recovering.
Seriously people, all we know is a 4 day demo, which is not enough to base anything in terms of ATs off of other than WDing is gone and a few older "advanced techs" (and some not so advanced IMO) are easier. There are bound to be new ones, no game is perfect and Brawl will have it's exploits. To argue either way is stupid IMO. I am just trying to get the "Wait and see, it's not even out yet" point across. It might be less technical in general, there may may not be ANY new advanced techs in the game. Or their might be new ones that people will take advantage of.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
this thread proves how utterly stupid, biased, and ignorant people are. AKA 5150. He's proved with every one of his posts that he is a stupid ignoramus.
Im sorry gimpyfish, but you played the game for a few hours, you know NOTHING about this game. Not only do I laugh at how seriously he is taking all the attention hes getting, by spewing out ******** episodes, but i feel flat out sorry for all the idiots who are eating up all his bull**** like its freakin apple pie.
Not to be hard on anyone, but honestly ... i doubt anyone who played at E4ALL knows the first thing about Brawl, yet they continually act as if they do.
the OP was very well stated, made great points, and yet, do to the ignorance and stupidity of the members (and elitists) on this board, it has been ignored by many.
The end truth is that brawl is a new game, and that 90% of the elitists on this board cannot and will not accept this. Most gamers (intelligent ones) can pick up a new game and get into the groove quickly. The ones who cant, the ones who stay fixated on the game in which they spent countless hours practicing just to be competitive; just to imitate others; people who lack any kind of quick thinking skills(mindgames), who can never hope to be pro, find the prospect of a new game infuriating.
Im sorry people i described above. Yes, youre going to have to start all over again. You will not be able to convince us all that Melee is a better game, especially before its out. We will be moving on, and you can stay in the past and mop around like little *****es as much as you want. Brawl is the new, Melee is the old.
Why dont we just stop comparing them? The more you compare, the more you are putting yourself into the description above. A stupid idiot who is afraid of change.
Im sorry gimpyfish, but you played the game for a few hours, you know NOTHING about this game. Not only do I laugh at how seriously he is taking all the attention hes getting, by spewing out ******** episodes, but i feel flat out sorry for all the idiots who are eating up all his bull**** like its freakin apple pie.
Not to be hard on anyone, but honestly ... i doubt anyone who played at E4ALL knows the first thing about Brawl, yet they continually act as if they do.
the OP was very well stated, made great points, and yet, do to the ignorance and stupidity of the members (and elitists) on this board, it has been ignored by many.
The end truth is that brawl is a new game, and that 90% of the elitists on this board cannot and will not accept this. Most gamers (intelligent ones) can pick up a new game and get into the groove quickly. The ones who cant, the ones who stay fixated on the game in which they spent countless hours practicing just to be competitive; just to imitate others; people who lack any kind of quick thinking skills(mindgames), who can never hope to be pro, find the prospect of a new game infuriating.
Im sorry people i described above. Yes, youre going to have to start all over again. You will not be able to convince us all that Melee is a better game, especially before its out. We will be moving on, and you can stay in the past and mop around like little *****es as much as you want. Brawl is the new, Melee is the old.
Why dont we just stop comparing them? The more you compare, the more you are putting yourself into the description above. A stupid idiot who is afraid of change.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
My point is that you have no idea what is for the best, because you never played brawl. So get off your stupid idiotic highhorse, and stup thinking you understand what brawl is, cause you have no freaking clue.
And why are you listening to Gimpy Fish? Hes played the game for a total of ...MAYBE, an HOUR, assuming he played 30 times, which is a stretch. He has no clue what he is talking about.
If they subtract from one area, it will add a totally new thing to the game. If you add auto-tether, that means you will now have to know that its coming, youll have to understand how it works, when it happens, how to block it, how to not have it occur when you dont want... how to edgegaurd it.
We have no clue if there is an autoLcancel. For all we know, they simply changed the timing on moves. In fact... saying AutoLcancel is simply ********. There is no more Lcancel is its auto you stupid idiot. And what now? Now we have to increase our reflexes to account for quicker recoveries? OH NO! And who cares anyway? If youre better than a scrub its not because you LCANCEL. And when youre not playign a scrub, it doesnt matter either, because everyone who isnt a scrub already Lcancels.
Skill Gap has never once been based on technical game. Skill is 90% mindgames. The techinical skill simply opened more possibilities to expand on mind games.
The fact that you are so fixated on the fact that you could l-cancel and others couldnt puts you into a pathetic catetgory which is becoming the majority on this board. It is the people who believe that learning advanced techiniques is what made them better smash players, when in reality, that has SO LITTLE to do with it.
Being a good smash player is about knowing ALL the characters moves, learning reactions, predicting opponents strategies and reacting before them. The saddest part of that statement, is so many people flat out disagree with that. They think "I can wave-dash, so of course i can do mindgames DURH DURH DURH"
Man, all this crying is so god **** annoying. All these terribly opinionated people with delusions of grandeur and vacuums with lips up their *** sucking up the bull**** and then telling them what to say.
Pyr0
Smash Ace
Hey guys, I invite you all to read this long post I made, and discuss on my point of view (using logic to the extreme)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=130712
I think your quite smart as to get my Ideas and comprehend them.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=130712
I think your quite smart as to get my Ideas and comprehend them.
Yeah, skill isn't based on technical aspects of smash. That's why M2K is so good. He has h4x mindgamez lolz, right? So you're telling me that if his technical skills were as good as the average player, he would still be just as good as he is now?
Right...so we have no idea about Brawl but you can make assumptions about how subtracting from something will add to something else?
First of all, it's auto as long as you fastfall. It's not auto in the sense that the game does it for you. So way to look like the ignorant *** you're trying to bash by making assumptions.
Second, no, they didn't change the timing on the moves. The new l-cancel has been tested by several people (you know Gimpy wasn't the only one at E for All, right?) therefore it's pretty logical to assume that they're right. What are the chances of every one of them testing it and coming to the exact same conclusion if it isn't true?
Again, Gimpy wasn't the only one that tested Brawl out. I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that a large chunk of his info is pretty reliable.
You do know that most of the people who are angered by the direction Brawl is going in are good players, right? Or maybe you're right and M2K and Dylan both suck real hard. New game or not, those players you described above will still be able to hand your *** over to you with little difficulty. Don't get your hopes up. Brawl won't make you any better of a player just because you're more welcome to the change.
That's exactly what we're doing. It can't be that we're trying to have an intelligent discussion here. How stupid of us it is to compare two games in the same series. That's as dumb as comparing two different Street Fighter games, or two different Halo games, or two different Final Fantasy games. Man, I wish I could be as smart as you are.
Again, this topic isn't about WDing. But dude, if you can't understand how much WDing adds to Melee and mind games in general, then you really can't talk.
Watch this video and tell me I'm wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jteRL6oxw1E
Right, all of us opinionated people. And you are...not?
Does anyone else see the irony here?
I was at EforAll, while it's a lot different than melee, it's still much more similar to melee than it is to 64. At a basic level, you won't have to learn as much new stuff. I'm assuming most people will easily be able to take a level 9 the day they get it, Melee's physics were so different the same couldn't be said (at least not to the extent that it can be said for brawl)
NES n00b
Smash Master
. . . . . Sliq is a good Jiggs player. I think he knows more about being a good smash player than you.
You should of just stick to the trolling and flaming that he did. <_<
I am sick of the crying about people not liking Brawl.
You should of just stick to the trolling and flaming that he did. <_<
I am sick of the crying about people not liking Brawl.
matthewmilad
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2006
- Messages
- 212
Well
A big thing I'm thinking will happen with the edge snaps is that characters like Marth, or anyone really, can stand there like they're going to use a smash or tilt on you, but then grab your edge instead. Edge guarding is gonna be huge now. Also, characters like Sonic and Meta Knight are gonna go chase you down to hit you or Footstool your face in, and easily make it back to the stage, Meta Knight especially. 6 jump, glide, recovery B moves, plus ability to Footstool = Broken.
A big thing I'm thinking will happen with the edge snaps is that characters like Marth, or anyone really, can stand there like they're going to use a smash or tilt on you, but then grab your edge instead. Edge guarding is gonna be huge now. Also, characters like Sonic and Meta Knight are gonna go chase you down to hit you or Footstool your face in, and easily make it back to the stage, Meta Knight especially. 6 jump, glide, recovery B moves, plus ability to Footstool = Broken.
jupiter
Smash Apprentice
wow, you guys really go out of your way to try to prove to one another something as "fact" and argue back and forth when the actual game isn't even out yet...
Less technical? More technical? Who cares right now? the demo was a DEMO. Not the final product.
Sakurai DID say that they've got a little more development to do on the game to "perfect" it.
HINT: Not done yet.
Let this sad little thread die already and stop caring about technicalities right now.
Less technical? More technical? Who cares right now? the demo was a DEMO. Not the final product.
Sakurai DID say that they've got a little more development to do on the game to "perfect" it.
HINT: Not done yet.
Let this sad little thread die already and stop caring about technicalities right now.
1. Amen on the subject of 5150.
2. Dude, what the hell? It's one thing to make the "Brawl isn't out yet to save your judgment" argument, but that's just low. Do you see any other topic so incredibly comprehensive about a 4 DAY DEMO? This guy took note after note for all of us; he devoted so much time making something like that, AND now he's doing Brawl Talk; how dare you insult him?
Also, that information he acquired was from PLAYING THE GAME. Yes, it's true, the whole thing is, to an extent, from his experience (I've heard testimonies that clash), but that doesn't mean he's wrong. He PLAYED THE **** GAME, he watched people play and he recorded what he saw and experienced.
It's true that his info has only scratched the surface, and some things may be different in the final product (restore Samus' projectiles, you b*stards! ><), but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
3. Your analysis of players is riddled with contradictions.
"Most gamers (intelligent ones) can pick up a new game and get into the groove quickly."
-Not when they've been spending the last 6 years deeply immersed in a different version. It's called re-learning.
"The ones who cant, the ones who stay fixated on the game in which they spent countless hours practicing just to be competitive; just to imitate others; people who lack any kind of quick thinking skills(mindgames), who can never hope to be pro, find the prospect of a new game infuriating."
-Even a Melee veteran would have an easier time adjusting to Brawl than a fresh new player to Smash, because the veteran would still have his/her knowledge of the core gameplay.
-"Just to be competitive"? They win money in those tourneys, you know.
-I don't deny that there are players who imitate others (my little brother is a watered-down version of Ken as Marth), but the truly great at anything become great on their own.
-Wait, what? People who practice for hours can't become pro players? That actually makes sense to you?
-Without quick thinking skills, a player would just give up and not invest time into Smash.
-A lot of people find Brawl "infuriating" just because of the changes made to the game that are supposed to make it easier for new players, not because it's a new game. And such an opinion does not make one an elitist noob.
-Actually, the more we compare, the closer we come to true understanding. Like I said before, it's one thing to just rant about the new changes; it's a whole other thing to discuss what their effects will be on the game.
Besides, you don't need to know "what you're talking about" to make good discussion on this game. I never went to E4A. Wanna know what I did?
I read the testimonies.
I talked to people who went there.
I watched videos.
I analyzed what I had read and watched.
And through that I formed my own conclusions. It's called learning. And given what you've written, it would seem you still have much to learn.
1. Taking away one aspect of the game =/= adding another. What you're saying is not optimism, it's just silly.
2. Here's a question; what if the tether always homes in even when you're at the bottom of the stage and your grapple won't reach? Well, byebye to you. You knew it was coming, you understood how it worked, you knew when it would happen and how it could be stopped...but it didn't work out for you.
3. No, L-cancelling is not automatic. The correct thing to say is that lag has been reduced, to the point where it mimics the reaction speeds of Melee w/ L-cancelling. There is an L-cancel and it is not automatic: fastfall an aerial and you remove all lag.
4. Skill, as far as Smash goes, is 50% technical skill and 50% mindgames, but that's a mathematically correct analogy because, in truth, skill is 100% skill and 100% mindgames; either way, the point is that they're equally important. Outthinking your opponent won't help much if you can't play the game, and you could have mastered every single AT and be able to play in your sleep but it won't matter if your opponent figures you out.
5. You're talking about "mindgames" as if it's actually something. Remember that "mindgames" is simply outthinking your opponent. Being able to do ATs like wavedashing doesn't automatically make you a tactical genius, but they can help with confusing your opponent and overcoming his/her strategies.
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871