Is anyone concerned that Ness has an impending nerf coming to him?

[TreeFire80]

It seems to me that with the nerfing of Sonic's and ROB's kill throws, the absurd power of his back throw has been highlighted even more and it seems Nintendo listens a lot to people's complaints more than anything when considering balance patches. With that said, I've noticed quite the spike in complaints about his back throw since the nerf. I think this combined with some of Ness' other ridiculous properties like 6th strongest fsmash, a frame 1 attack in the startup of upsmash, PKT2 being one of the strongest moves in the game (for instance it beats every single one of captain falcon's attacks including his final smash in KO percentage), and his potential for well placed pkfires leading to near zero-to-deaths make him quite prone to more complaints. Considering all this, do you think his time has come to be nerfed?

Personally, I have a strong feeling that at least the back throw is getting the nerf-hammer when the Lucas DLC is released with other nerfs possible too.

 

[Luco]

Ness and Mewtwo have had very strong throws since the very beginning. Most of those other qualities are either too iffy to be as good as they seem or have some other quality that takes away from them (PKT is gimpable, PKF can be DI-ed out of, the throw can be DI-ed, only 2-3 Fairs will hit, Fsmash is okay but on the shorter side on range, etc.). I think if anything, it says a lot about Ness if he, who had the strongest kill throw, was the only one that wasn't nerfed in that department. I think it was a purposeful decision to highlight the fact that he has a kill throw moreso than anyone else (as well as Mewtwo) and I don't think the complaints will be enough for Nintendo to nerf the throw. It's also semi-noteworthy that Nintendo has actually been paying attention to the competitive scene this time, and if they were to nerf Bthrow it would be an obvious destroying of one of Ness' unique mechanics and one of the biggest things that makes him so good. He'd be sent to the depths of mid tier instantly and I don't think Nintendo would do that.

But I could be proven wrong.

 

[Noa.]

Ness's bthrow is iconic and has killed in every game at really low percents. And Nintendo seems to be somewhat concerned about maintaining the identity of characters. They're not against kill throws in general, just on certain characters.

 

[Earthbound360]

They won't nerf it.

Like Noa. said, Nintendo isn't against kill throws altogether. Honestly, the nerfs to Sonic and ROB's throws should actually act as confirmation that they won't nerf Ness' bthrow. I mean, clearly the acknowledge that throws can KO, but what'd they do to the strongest one? Nothing. They want Ness' bthrow to be the strongest by far, it's his thing.

 

[Ranias]

I was surprised about the ROB Up Throw nerf, not needed at all.

I agree that Ness's Back Throw will probably not be nerfed.

I do also have a feeling Ness might get a small nerf though, but I think it's more likely that underpowered characters will be seeing buffs.

It might make sense for Nintendo to keep Ness the same, so as to more easily design a balanced Lucas around him.

 

[SuperTorn]

If they do I won't get it, Ness has stayed bottom tier in every Smash before Smash 4, give him his moment of glory please.

 

[Funen1]

It's funny, I mentioned before the patch how people weren't seeming to complain about Ness' B-throw that much, then afterwards they suddenly started doing so like you said lol.

But like others have said, Ness having a very strong throw has been part of his design for every game (and from what I've heard, he had two strong throws in 64!). I'm more inclined to believe that the nerfs to some kill throws in the patch were done more because they didn't fit with the character's design rather than because enough people were complaining about them. R.O.B.'s U-throw didn't receive much hate at all from what I could tell, but it got significantly toned down all the same.

I'm also no longer completely sold that Ness may receive significant nerfs in other departments in future patches, considering he went through the last patch virtually untouched. He'd have to start dominating the metagame a la 1.0.4 Diddy to warrant that, and I just don't see that happening. Slight nerfs, maybe, but nothing more than that.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness doesnt even need nerfs. He's not even top 5.

 

[PKBeam]

• Usmash isn't frame 1, it's frame 6 and it's also a big ~60 frame commitment.
• PKF has never been and never will be a 0-death, no matter how well it's placed.
• The strength of some of his moves is balanced by being hard to land.
• Bthrow killed since 64, you think it'd take them 16 years to nerf one move?

nerfs are not given because a character is good.
nerfs are given because a character is too good.

 

[SuperTorn]

It's funny, I mentioned before the patch how people weren't seeming to complain about Ness' B-throw that much, then afterwards they suddenly started doing so like you said lol.

But like others have said, Ness having a very strong throw has been part of his design for every game (and from what I've heard, he had two strong throws in 64!). I'm more inclined to believe that the nerfs to some kill throws in the patch were done more because they didn't fit with the character's design rather than because enough people were complaining about them. R.O.B.'s U-throw didn't receive much hate at all from what I could tell, but it got significantly toned down all the same.

I'm also no longer completely sold that Ness may receive significant nerfs in other departments in future patches, considering he went through the last patch virtually untouched. He'd have to start dominating the metagame a la 1.0.4 Diddy to warrant that, and I just don't see that happening. Slight nerfs, maybe, but nothing more than that.

The SSB64 throw thing if I remember, is actually true. I played it a week or 2 ago with my friends and I played as Ness, I'm pretty sure I killed some of them with his backthrow at like 90 or 100% so his Bthrow goes back that far

 

[wingedarcher7]

I think the very most I can see Ness getting nerfed in is maybe a 1% difference in some attack that he has, but I feel that if Nintendo really wanted to do something to him, then they would have by now. We've had a number of patches and all we got was a sound effect on his bat and stuff.

Ness is solid in this game, but I think some people need to relax in calling him "too good" and begging for Nintendo to nerf him the one time he gets a spotlight in a Smash game. He can still get gimped during his recovery and it's not like he's impossible to deal with. The back throw is Ness' bread and butter, as it always has been so they won't pull that way from him now.

 

[TreeFire80]

• Usmash isn't frame 1, it's frame 6 and it's also a big ~60 frame commitment.
• PKF has never been and never will be a 0-death, no matter how well it's placed.
• The strength of some of his moves is balanced by being hard to land.
• Bthrow killed since 64, you think it'd take them 16 years to nerf one move?

nerfs are not given because a character is good.
nerfs are given because a character is too good.

1) You're right about that, I was misinformed along with reading the frame data incorrectly.
2) I disagree 100% on this. First of all, I said near zero-to-death, if you catch a landing or roll just right (where the PKF starts just past the halfway point of their frame), especially after a DJC, then there's just the right amount of knockback to keep them off the ground without freeing them enough for another PKF or the bat. This doesn't work on all characters (for instance Marth with his Up-B), but I believe it's there.
3) Yeah, I know PKT2 is hard to land, but it is landable, especially if the opponent is too fixated on the PKT itself. I was more or less pointing out that he has an option that is that strong but I'll concede that point to you.
4) I'm not saying don't make it kill, just that there's LOTS of room between his backthrow and the next strongest kill throw that it could get slightly nerfed without shrinking the gap too considerably.

5) Plenty of characters have already gotten nerfs that no one would have considered too good ex: ROB, Sonic, Rosaluma, Greninja, Mii Brawler etc.

#4 is being brought up quite a bit, I'm not saying they take his signature move away, just that they could nerf it (such as making it scale less with rage or what have you) without compromising his identity.

 

[Luco]

Personally I think the percentages it kills at are perfect as a defining move, but people who don't main Ness would probably shoot me if I said anything like that anywhere else.

 

[Drarky]

It's obvious that things like kill throws and defensive play cause a lot of controversy (Hey there, Dabuz), but Ness's BThrow has been always been one of the things that made him... well, Ness. It would be like removing some of the depth of the projectiles on Link's kit and they gave him a Counter or I dunno, it's just a thing that has always been there, but now that Ness is actually viable, you can see it more often (And by extension, hate it more often)

 

[Earthbound360]

The SSB64 throw thing if I remember, is actually true. I played it a week or 2 ago with my friends and I played as Ness, I'm pretty sure I killed some of them with his backthrow at like 90 or 100% so his Bthrow goes back that far

Not to mention the blastzones were incredibly far away in that game

1) You're right about that, I was misinformed along with reading the frame data incorrectly.
2) I disagree 100% on this. First of all, I said near zero-to-death, if you catch a landing or roll just right (where the PKF starts just past the halfway point of their frame), especially after a DJC, then there's just the right amount of knockback to keep them off the ground without freeing them enough for another PKF or the bat. This doesn't work on all characters (for instance Marth with his Up-B), but I believe it's there.
3) Yeah, I know PKT2 is hard to land, but it is landable, especially if the opponent is too fixated on the PKT itself. I was more or less pointing out that he has an option that is that strong but I'll concede that point to you.
4) I'm not saying don't make it kill, just that there's LOTS of room between his backthrow and the next strongest kill throw that it could get slightly nerfed without shrinking the gap too considerably.

5) Plenty of characters have already gotten nerfs that no one would have considered too good ex: ROB, Sonic, Rosaluma, Greninja, Mii Brawler etc.

#4 is being brought up quite a bit, I'm not saying they take his signature move away, just that they could nerf it (such as making it scale less with rage or what have you) without compromising his identity.

Oh geez where do I begin?

It's NEVER even NEAR 0-death. Yes, PKF to bat can KO at ludicrous percents, but that "combo" very very rarely works against an opponent who knows how to DI or counterattack out of the flames (one jab is all it takes to interrupt the bat). If you get PKF at 0%, you cannot, I repeat CAN NOT continue chaining PKFs on ANY character in the game until they're at bat KO percent. Maybe against a 5 year old who chews on the controller while in PKF maybe, but we can't base nerfs on people who don't know what they're doing. That'll ruin the game.

PKT2 very very rarely lands against good opponents. Stop falling for it, There's so much you can do. The startup of PKT is huge, hit Ness. The priority on PKT is awful, attack the head. The end lag on PKT2 is incredible, fast fall land without air dodging and shield it. 80% of the cast has a counter or special shield, hit down B for once. It deserves to be strong because of how hard it is to land, and to reduce the incentive to try and gimp Ness. Without that power, Ness would be getting gimped endlessly.

Nerfing Ness' bthrow would be literally destroying what makes the character himself. The difference between nerfing Ness' bthrow and ROB/Sonic's throws and Greninja is that they're nerfing something that is either silly, or never was meant to be. ROB and Sonic weren't meant to be kill throwers. Ness was. Greninja having an usmash that was so lagless that he could hit Shulk's counter and still avoid damage was silly. A close range KO option that KO's at 110% isn't silly. There has to be good reason for a nerf, mroe than just "people don't like it."

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Yes. Seeing how Sheik got nerfed twice despite being absolutely fine after the first one(if a bit bland and tedious to play) and then second nerf just making matches take even longer. Also i've seen a lot of very vocal ness hatred on him apparently being "easy mode" in this game which is ridiculous but the kind of stuff that seems to get noticed due to how vocal the haters of things that happen to actually be good in a videogame are. And I mean, even Mewtwo's kill throws got nerfed in this game.(not to mention DK, who has traditionally been a grappler)After two patches wherein the only good things that happened were greninja's usmash not being so ridiculously versatile(though it was coupled witha ton of completely unecessary nerfs that absolutely crippled the character), MK's bair and nair giving him decent kill moves outside shuttle loop and d-cape, and hoo-hah being less of a thing I have very little faith in the dev teams ability to make good balance patch decisions.

 

[Earthbound360]

Those all sound like fine changes to me. A lot of that stuff was silly.

 

[Link24a]

*disregard*

 

[Uffe]

I really don't think Ness needs to be nerfed. He has been slightly nerfed from the 1.0.4 and 1.0.6 patches. I can't remember if anything happened to him with the 1.0.5. When it comes to Ness' PKT2 and PKFl, I think those deserve a buff. Both are very situational attacks, and as they saying goes, "The higher the risk, the higher the reward," that's how they should be. So it upsets me when PKT2 can be gimped by a banana or some other attacks that aren't as strong as it.

 

[Earthbound360]

Lol I remember the days when you could combo an edgeguard PKT into a guaranteed uair, and when dthrow did 9%.

Fun stuff it was.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

If anything, I think Ness' dair is broken and needs to be fixed, and PK Flash could stand to be totally redesigned.
(Rising PK Flash was a good idea, but it might actually be better if we just didn't special fall out of it or could control it more.)
As it stands, the massive dair nerf crippled Ness' downward pressure and makes him even less intimidating off-stage.

 

[Earthbound360]

They're not going to buff dair either. Spike dairs are all pretty ass in this game compared to their older counterparts. All of them were given non-spike hitboxes, so this was a global nerf, not just to Ness. The fact that they gave it a non-spike hitbox is what made it so impossible to land.

They also increased the endlag and reduced the startup from Brawl, but that just made the move worse. They could change this, but they'd have to alter the animation for that.

The only thing I could expect them to buff is the knockback (which is pitiful for such a slow move), but Ness is in no position to be buffed in most people's eyes.

PK Flash is always destined to be bad because they think it's a good move for FFAs. Even then it's a lame move. It just makes everyone stop fighting and jump into their shields lol.

Also, the term "broken" is usually used to describe things that are too god, not bad ones.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

They're not going to buff dair either. Spike dairs are all pretty *** in this game compared to their older counterparts. All of them were given non-spike hitboxes, so this was a global nerf, not just to Ness. The fact that they gave it a non-spike hitbox is what made it so impossible to land.

For half of Ness' iterations, dair has been a vital move (particularly in 64) for damage and for protecting descent. Even if the move lost its ability to spike, it would still be valuable for the sake of directional coverage. Shoot, if dair sent characters in any direction besides down, it would still serve its utility.

Also, the term "broken" is usually used to describe things that are too god, not bad ones.

From a programming and design perspective, "broken" would refer to something that ceased to function as intended, often appearing fine in theory, but failing in praxis.

 

[Earthbound360]

I understand that, but I think Nintendo was sorta against downwards coverage for a lot of characters in this game in general. There seems to be this pattern of being over someone is dangerous, among just about all characters. You'll notice that most characters' worst aerial is their dair. There are exceptions of course though, like Mario and Villager (****ing turnips...). I don't think Nintendo is prepared to allow Ness to break that unwritten rule.

And yeah I know that broken usually means bad in other contexts, but in games it usually means "too good"
Dunno who started that trend honestly. It soudns really counter-intuitive.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

And yeah I know that broken usually means bad in other contexts, but in games it usually means "too good"
Dunno who started that trend honestly. It soudns really counter-intuitive.

My best guess would be from people complaining and using it as hyperbole. In other games with more frequent balance patches, like StarCraft, you'll hear "broken" less exclusively used to describe changes that are "too good," but rather are "bad for the game as a whole" or "this thing doesn't work anymore."

 

[PKBeam]

i once Daired a standing opponent and nearly got a Usmash off of the hitstun.

i think the reason they're so laggy/bad is so you can't bounce them in the air and get a free *whatever*, because being bounced up by a meteor actually inflicts a lot of hitstun in this game.

like, a lot of moves with (strong) meteors are hard to follow up, mostly because of lag.

 

[Earthbound360]

i once Daired a standing opponent and nearly got a Usmash off of the hitstun.

i think the reason they're so laggy/bad is so you can't bounce them in the air and get a free *whatever*, because being bounced up by a meteor actually inflicts a lot of hitstun in this game.

like, a lot of moves with (strong) meteors are hard to follow up, mostly because of lag.

Actually, bouncing off of the ground has almost no hitstun from what I've seen. I've seen people immediately nair or air dodge after bouncing, mostly because it was a buffered move before they got hit by the dair.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think thats a timing thing. like if you press the a button as if to tech, or you airdodge at some specific frames, you just escape the hitstun. i think its one of those meteor cancels.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Tbh, I'm wondering if Lucas will retain his spike dair, that alone will give him a lot of pressure, I couldn't see that being removed.

Ness's dair was my favorite move for him, it's kinda weird how it's so awful now.

 

[ilysm]

Memo to anyone visiting the Ness boards:

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever talk to EB360 about PK Fire -> Bat.

I'm afraid one of these days the poor guy will rupture or something. He knows what he's on about.


Honestly, I think the strongest reason why Ness's bthrow will stay the same is that there have been two major balance patches and its been untouched. And I believe Ness isn't even Top 5. Sure, he's good. I'd be stupid to deny that. But a predictable and stale neutral, so-so recovery, lack of range, and poor approach options are gonna limit him from being one of the best. Not that I'm complaining; I love Ness a ton! But a lot of the gripes leveled at him are really unwarranted. If he is nerfed, I'll play him 'til the end. But somehow I really doubt he will be.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Honestly, I think the strongest reason why Ness's bthrow will stay the same is that there have been two major balance patches and its been untouched. And I believe Ness isn't even Top 5. Sure, he's good. I'd be stupid to deny that. But a predictable and stale neutral, so-so recovery, lack of range, and poor approach options are gonna limit him from being one of the best. Not that I'm complaining; I love Ness a ton! But a lot of the gripes leveled at him are really unwarranted. If he is nerfed, I'll play him 'til the end. But somehow I really doubt he will be.

If only Nintendo considered the eSport potential of the game...
Characters wouldn't be left with unused moves (Ness' dtilt and dair especially) because spectators would find the matches boring and predictable.
Giving us Lucas for better matchup coverage will be a welcome change, but more interestingly, with his inclusion we might actually see changes to Ness to differentiate him from Lucas.
It seems that's the only reason why they would change Ness, and even then, still unlikely.

 

[Earthbound360]

Memo to anyone visiting the Ness boards:

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever talk to EB360 about PK Fire -> Bat.

I'm afraid one of these days the poor guy will rupture or something. He knows what he's on about.


Honestly, I think the strongest reason why Ness's bthrow will stay the same is that there have been two major balance patches and its been untouched. And I believe Ness isn't even Top 5. Sure, he's good. I'd be stupid to deny that. But a predictable and stale neutral, so-so recovery, lack of range, and poor approach options are gonna limit him from being one of the best. Not that I'm complaining; I love Ness a ton! But a lot of the gripes leveled at him are really unwarranted. If he is nerfed, I'll play him 'til the end. But somehow I really doubt he will be.

Lol it's not really just PKF bat that bothers me. I'll admit, it techncially does combo SOMETIMES on certain cahracters, and when it does, it's deadly.

It's the people that claim PKF combos into itself until death that piss me off.

And I agree wit the second part of your post as well. He's good, but he doesn't deserve nerfs before a lot of other characters like Sheik and Sonic.

 

[TreeFire80]

So I'm confused, I just got eviscerated in this thread for mentioning that it's feasible for PKF to bat can combo and even mentioned a couple of scenarios where it occurs most often. But then it went from "NEVER WORKS" to "RARELY WORKS" to "SOMETIMES" works. Why the sudden turnaround? Maybe I was a little ambitious by saying near zero-to-death but perhaps I had a different definition of how close to zero "near" is. I still don't think that warrants belittling me. I understand that you'll never chain more than two PKFs into a bat, but you just admitted you can in fact net a kill with it.

Then ZeRo comes out with tier list video and mentions PKT2 is "ridiculous" and "I don't think someone should kill you off a simple air-dodge read" but somehow my very similar point is bashed. If you think it's too easy to avoid, maybe you could get better at setting it up?

Then everyone assumes that by "nerfing" the back throw insinuates that I think it shouldn't be a kill-throw. I never said that. I mentioned it earlier, but there is so much room between how potent his kill throw is vs the next best one that there is room for it to be nerfed and still remain the best kill throw by a large margin while also somewhat satisfying complaints that it's too strong. I should mention that I don't think it should be nerfed either, nor do I want it to be, I'm just bringing up the possibility.

I just have to ask, though.

Why is this board so hostile sometimes? I've already considered to stop posting here a couple times for the reactions I get for merely stating my opinions and asking innocent questions. This is not how you foster a richer and bigger community, which I hope is what people here want.

 

[ilysm]

Aha.

Well, first off, from experience on this board (where I started when I was a new member) we're actually not that hostile [insert Link boards joke here]. But I see where you're coming from! I think the tired response you're getting from this thread is the result of practically legions of individuals accosting us for apologies for our tools or opinions on improbable nerfs or justification for maining the character that we do. This repeated process kinda combines with the fact that Ness is not as great as most (even ZeRo, with whom I would vocally disagree if I had actually known about his tier list claims) make him out to be, and quite a lot of people voice really loud and passionate complaints about the character despite having little experience or not having done much to deal with the issues they've found in the [their character]/Ness matchup. So when somebody shows up proposing the same ideas that have been discussed so often in so many more unpleasant contexts, albeit in a more reasonable manner, there's some response to that particular line of questioning being beaten into a tiny pile of jiblets.

To be honest though, reading these posts, the only thing I see a kind of tangibly negative response to is the PK Fire -> Bat '0-death' point. Anybody who's visited these boards knows that all of us, especially EB360, have extensively and exhaustively proven that it is nowhere near that potent. EB360 conceded that on some characters, in some scenarios, it can combo once and yield good results. A lot of situational strategies are like that. But it is always a matter or luck or inexperience when PK Fire chains into itself at all, and even more so when it happens multiple times into a fsmash. Often, PK Fire can't even guarantee a grab against an opponent who knows their DI once you clear the low percents. It gets a bit frustrating when no matter what numbers and proof we offer, people still cry that our character can take them from 0 to death with one 'broken' move that really isn't that great of a projectile and never has been (except in PM of course).

I understand your perspective, I totally do! And I'm super willing to have a civil discussion. I'm just offering that the long line of eager responses to your topic seem a bit in-your-face because we've all been here before. So, so often. And it seems like no matter what we say, nobody will listen. But I think the Ness boards are in the vast majority of cases a group of pretty cool people, and I'm sorry you got the impression that indicated otherwise from this interaction.

 

[PKBeam]

you don't get PKT2 off a simple airdodge read.
actually, if a Ness is PKT juggling you, the last thing you should do is airdodge land, and pretty much everyone knows this.
ZeRo most likely meant "if conditions are met, you can get PKT2 off an airdodge read", which has a different meaning to "you can get a PKT2 read off an airdodge"

with PKF, basically what EB360 meant was

• never works - as in it's not viable to use nor can it be relied upon at all
• sometimes works - as in once in a blue moon, as the result of a combination of several instances of bad luck

it's a result of the fact that "never" is often referred to as an extreme example of "not competitively viable", which is an ambiguous wording if you don't understand what it's being applied to. most things that "never" work can technically be said to "sometimes" work, but not everyone is like that with the way they type.

bthrow being nerfed to bring it in line with other kill throws is, and I say this honestly, a terrible idea.
why change the fundamentals of a character because people complain about it?
you get this sort of stuff all the time. after you nerf Bthrow, where does it stop?
do we nerf Marth's tippers do they don't kill at 60% anymore?
then do we make Link's projectiles slow, weak and laggy?
and what if we weaken Zelda's LKs, despite her still being low tier?
there's always going to be some complaint about something, and most of these complaints don't justify a nerf in the first place.
nerfing a character to make the scrubs and lesser competitives happy is ultimately a fruitless act.

don't take anything personally, the cold atmosphere that forms around these threads is because most of us are really annoyed that people still come to our boards and bring these things up.
same with the Link boards, and probably some of the top tiers.

 

[Earthbound360]

So I'm confused, I just got eviscerated in this thread for mentioning that it's feasible for PKF to bat can combo and even mentioned a couple of scenarios where it occurs most often. But then it went from "NEVER WORKS" to "RARELY WORKS" to "SOMETIMES" works. Why the sudden turnaround? Maybe I was a little ambitious by saying near zero-to-death but perhaps I had a different definition of how close to zero "near" is. I still don't think that warrants belittling me. I understand that you'll never chain more than two PKFs into a bat, but you just admitted you can in fact net a kill with it.

No no, you misread that. PKF into PKF into ANYTHING will NEVER work on anyone who's paying attention.
PKT to BAT will occasionally work on the right characters with a perfect setup.
Therefore PKF 0-death will NEVER work. It's not even close. If you can PKF to bat someone, they either aren't at 0, or aren't going to die.

Then ZeRo comes out with tier list video and mentions PKT2 is "ridiculous" and "I don't think someone should kill you off a simple air-dodge read" but somehow my very similar point is bashed. If you think it's too easy to avoid, maybe you could get better at setting it up?

I don't care who ZeRo is or what he's accomplished, PKT2 is NOT ridiculous. A "simple air-dodge read" isn't as simple as it sounds, and even then, that's the opponents fault for being bad at evading PKT. I hate the idea that he's making it sound like 1 read air dodge is an easy stock for Ness, because it isn't.

Then everyone assumes that by "nerfing" the back throw insinuates that I think it shouldn't be a kill-throw. I never said that. I mentioned it earlier, but there is so much room between how potent his kill throw is vs the next best one that there is room for it to be nerfed and still remain the best kill throw by a large margin while also somewhat satisfying complaints that it's too strong. I should mention that I don't think it should be nerfed either, nor do I want it to be, I'm just bringing up the possibility.

That's the like of saying "maybe we should nerf Sheik so that she loses 2 stocks per KO. I don't think it should happen, but it's just a possibility."

Just bringing it up as a "possibility" even if the nerf is completely unjustifiable is where **** starts, even if you think it shouldn't happen. Before you know it, people start agreeing with you, the community becomes very vocal about it, Nintendo notices it, and dumb nerfs start happening that shouldn't be there. Ness' bthrow does NOT deserve a nerf in any way, shape, or form.

I just have to ask, though.

Why is this board so hostile sometimes? I've already considered to stop posting here a couple times for the reactions I get for merely stating my opinions and asking innocent questions. This is not how you foster a richer and bigger community, which I hope is what people here want.

Fine, maybe I came off as a bit harsh, but when I see someone new or foreign to our boards come in and act like they know the inside outs of Ness mechanics and state their viewpoints as FACT, and they're CLEARLY wrong, it pisses me off.

It's like me going to the WFT boards and saying the character needs a nerf to the usmash because it KO'd me at 90%. I know nothing about this character, but I state my opinion as fact and ignoring the reasoning from any other person more knowledgeable of the character.
Pile that in with me and the other Ness mains having to deal with this **** for months now, no matter what proof we provide the naysayers, and it starts to wear you thin.

Many times have I said I'm going to kill myself if someone else claims that PKF is a 0-death. This isn't just you.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Many times have I said I'm going to kill myself if someone else claims that PKF is a 0-death. This isn't just you.

What do you mean PKF isn't 0-death?! Here's proof!

 

[Earthbound360]

What do you mean PKF isn't 0-death?! Here's proof!

...I ain't even mad

 

[Lochy]

• Usmash isn't frame 1, it's frame 6 and it's also a big ~60 frame commitment.
• PKF has never been and never will be a 0-death, no matter how well it's placed.
• The strength of some of his moves is balanced by being hard to land.
• Bthrow killed since 64, you think it'd take them 16 years to nerf one move?

nerfs are not given because a character is good.
nerfs are given because a character is too good.

You took the words out of my mouth lol!

 

[Luco]

So I'm confused, I just got eviscerated in this thread for mentioning that it's feasible for PKF to bat can combo and even mentioned a couple of scenarios where it occurs most often. But then it went from "NEVER WORKS" to "RARELY WORKS" to "SOMETIMES" works. Why the sudden turnaround? Maybe I was a little ambitious by saying near zero-to-death but perhaps I had a different definition of how close to zero "near" is. I still don't think that warrants belittling me. I understand that you'll never chain more than two PKFs into a bat, but you just admitted you can in fact net a kill with it.

Then ZeRo comes out with tier list video and mentions PKT2 is "ridiculous" and "I don't think someone should kill you off a simple air-dodge read" but somehow my very similar point is bashed. If you think it's too easy to avoid, maybe you could get better at setting it up?

Then everyone assumes that by "nerfing" the back throw insinuates that I think it shouldn't be a kill-throw. I never said that. I mentioned it earlier, but there is so much room between how potent his kill throw is vs the next best one that there is room for it to be nerfed and still remain the best kill throw by a large margin while also somewhat satisfying complaints that it's too strong. I should mention that I don't think it should be nerfed either, nor do I want it to be, I'm just bringing up the possibility.

I just have to ask, though.

Why is this board so hostile sometimes? I've already considered to stop posting here a couple times for the reactions I get for merely stating my opinions and asking innocent questions. This is not how you foster a richer and bigger community, which I hope is what people here want.

Ahh, sorry about that!

It's like the others have said, it's mostly stuff we've been going over many many times. Still, if you felt offended then I offer an apology. We're actually a pretty nice community I think, so hopefully our first impression doesn't get to you. =P

These kinds of kills that you describe do happen, hell, even we get them sometimes (ask Shaya sometime why he should never AD into a Ness using PKT ), but they're unreliable and rare, too rare for us - in other words, we believe that people tend to over-rate their use and thus over-rate our character as a whole. I also think we're, in part, scared that the wrong public perception of Ness could get us hit with the nerf hammer, which would suck because this is like the first time we've been top tier in over 15 years!

I'm a more optimistic Ness main; I tend not to speak out against people who place him so highly because I've been noticing that many of the top players are apparently having large issues with Ness (or otherwise placing him really highly, including M2K and ZeRo), and I'm wondering why. I'm wondering where the discrepancy between our theory and their experiences are, and I'm not totally convinced just yet that it's just inexperience, but I'll wait and see.

ANYWAY feel free to ask questions here and I promise we won't eat you alive. Most likely. <3