*cough* Let me link you both back to post 226 and 228 of the thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5646541&postcount=226
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5647868&postcount=228
Melee requires a different set of technical skills that are not needed or present in Brawl. Melee’s a different game. Honestly, it doesn’t matter if people have played Melee or not. I thought we already came to that conclusion.
Pray tell, what changed in the game mechanics and item mechanics that make Items On an entirely different game in Brawl compared to Melee to such a degree that we have to give it another few years of evaluation before banning items altogether?
We know that Brawl is
different from Melee. The question is: How is it different in regards to items and is it different to such a degree that items are now no longer broken?
On-paper facts do not prove anything, either. Do you play Brawl on paper?
On paper facts is all that matters when you do not have comprehensive scientific experiments to go by.
Actually, two tournaments have run All-Brawl (MN Meltdown and SB3). A minor All-Brawl tournament was held online ages ago as well. (You should do a little research first before contributing to the discussion). All-Brawl will probably be run at Final Round in Atlanta as well, so we’ll see what happens there.
You mentioned Online. You lose.
So far, the best players have won All-Brawl. Also, the bracket results were consistent with regular brawl.
Doesn't matter. There are strong chances for the best players to
not win. And what happens when two players of equal play each other and fight tooth and nail, where it's a toss-up, only for a random item spawn to screw it all up and voila, they just lost the final match in a totally BS:y way?
How do you know those winners were the "best" players, anyway? Do you mean best "Items On" Brawlers? Best Brawlers in general? Best Brawlers with Items Off?
You realize that Season's Beatings III only had 68 entrants for regular Brawl, right? Was that an unsuccessful tournament as well? Even so, what does 100 people have to do with a successful tournament?
Number of entrants is irrelevant. Level of skill is all that matters. A 16-man tournament can beat a 200-man tournament if the 200-man tournament is consisted mostly of newbies and the 16-man tournament consists of the 16 best players in the world.
I could get 100 of my relatives together for a big ol’ game of Brawl and it wouldn’t be much of a showcase of skill. kr3wman, I don’t want to call you out but you’ve been making dumb post after dumb post in this thread. Think about what you're saying before posting, please, you're not really contributing to the discussion.
What kr3wman is talking about is probably the fact that the All-Brawl ruleset do not attract very many entrants. Or at the very least, All-Brawl attracts many newbies and itemnites, while at the same time repelling the vast majority of the best Smashers in the world as they do not feel like traveling long distances and spending a lot of money to play 2 stocks, 3 minutes and All items/All stages.
For the most part I agree with that. However, the next major All-Brawl tournament will probably be held at Final Round in Atlanta. From what I hear, the competitive scene in Atlanta has already abandoned Brawl and is now back to playing Melee.
(If it is true) they abandoned Brawl because they felt it was too broken. Do you really think they'll think All-Brawl is less broken?
People, like myself, are unwilling to ban something simply because it appears broken. After playing around with items on, most if not all the items I thought were broken were actually pretty easy to deal with. Saying that other "people never or are unwilling to learn" is hypocritical when coming out of your mouth, dude.
We've actually experimented with items. We've actually looked at items in depth. We've actually analyzed things. We've actually spent hundreds of hours playing with items on.
I've clocked more game time with items on than the vast majority of All-Brawl players. I know more about items than the vast majority of All-Brawl players. I know why items are so very broken and chance-based. They don't just "appear" broken, they "are".
Just because
you were wrong does not mean
we are. All Items and All Stages will never be acceptable for the vast majority of the Competitive gamers on SWF. For one thing, the SBR had lengty debates and experiments involving stages, thus was the banned stage list.
Items as a whole were swept off the table because of their very premise, the very engine that drives them (which is random, favours the loser, etc.). Even if individual items aren't broken on their own, we'd be stuck with very few items if we wanted to remove everything broken and that can tip the scales of balance "too much".
There has been testing on Hyrule Temple, New Pork City, and 75m. If you look at the Minnesota Meltdown and Season's Beatings III videos, there is not that much runaway occuring on those stages (so far). Either players are unable to run away effectively or they are just not aware of that tactic.
They aren't aware of it. Which is
in no way a good defense for those stages! There
has been testing on those stages... by the SBR!
The fact that random nobodies unaware of the runaway tactics elect
not to does not mean it's not
possible and
wholly broken. Why the
hell are you ignoring the findings of the SBR for, um, videos where players
don't do the broken stuff?
At the very least, give us videos where they
do engage in these tactics but
fail instead of videos where they just don't bother.
Unfair, hell yes! Broken, no. No one has won a tournament, much less a set, with those items alone. The whole premise behind All-Brawl is to test to see if certain items are truly broken before banning them.
No one has done it =/= It cannot happen
If it's possible, it
will happen. And we do not want that. There
has been testing. We even have a team on Smashboards testing items! Pokéballs, broken.
Because there are several Pokémon which leave you no choice but to run away and try to dodge the Pokémon. Meanwhile, your opponent can still chase you, so you're fighting both the Pokémon
and your opponent.
That’s not random, that is where the thread ended up going after 15 pages, when AlphaZealot said All-Brawl would be a good side tournament.
The point I was making is that
I never once stated that All-Brawl can never ever be played, yet I was lumped into that crowd.
All I’ve seen you post is preconceptions. Theories are worth nothing compared to evidence. Show me example videos, show me example brackets that prove these rules are ludicrous. Better yet, enter an All-Brawl tournament for yourself and tell me what you experienced, as you are this “Yuna” that “has a hands-on, visceral approach to discussions”.
I've clocked more items time that you, most probably. I know more about items that you, most probably. Pre-conceptions? I have hands-on
personal experience with items. What videos, really? Videos where we show that overpowered items can spawn randomly and turn the tide around?
Why must we have video evidence of
everything when it's not even
uncommon? A Bob-Omb spawns over someone's head right when they initiate a Smash, it explodes, they die. We know this can happen. We know this can happen with any explosive. We don't need a video to prove it, just boot the game up.
I'm so sick and tired of the "We need videos!" crowd. No, we
don't. All stages, all items, that's wholly ridiculous. Smash Balls, Bob-Ombs, Timers, Fans, broken BS which literally break the game.
At this point, I don’t think you have the right. You have shown no concrete evidence as to how All-Brawl is preposterous.
I can pull up statitics, game data, frame data, item data, stage data, etc., etc. No, I cannot pull up videos showing All-Brawl is ridiculous because
there exist were few videos of that in the first place and those videos most often
do not involve players of the highest skill.
So not only aren't they really, really good avoiding items, they also do not know how to best utilize them.
My thoughts exactly.
Don't you think you're being a little irrational?
Why? It's a perfectly valid analogy.
We had 4 years of Melee with items on. Videos, brackets, results, everything eventually pointed to how items were broken. Pray tell, how has Brawl changed in such a way that we need to turn them back on again and give them a new chance? The items themselves have, if anything, gotten
even more broken.
It's ridiculous to think that every time a new Smash is released, we have to give items another chance, even if the gameplay elements concerning items are pretty much largely the same (or worse). So for every single new Smash, we have to spend 1-2+ years "analysing" things?
Do you want me to record a video showing off just how broken the Dragoon and Smash Balls are? Apparently, words aren't enough, you need concrete evidence, despite it being quite easy to go into Training Mode and see that Marth can combo into his Final Smash (which is a One-Hit KO at 0% on almost every single stage in the entire game) from at least 4 different moves, guaranteed.