Is All-Brawl the future competitive standard?

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

That's not how it works. The All-Brawl ruleset is susceptible to instances of dumb luck; such factors as luck have little place in a competitive environment. What the video demonstrates is that anytime there are items present, luck may play a factor.

Further exploration is not needed regarding this subject. It has happened once, therefore it can happen again.

Luck manipulation is a skill. What I described before about predicting an item spawn and performing your actions based on that prediction is a form of luck manipulation. Meta Knight died by a bob-omb spawn because he blindly spammed the tornado during the time in which an item was about to spawn. THAT is why he died. The only aspect of it that was luck was that the worst case scenario happened to occur. If you can expect this to happen, you can prepare well ahead of time so that it won't happen. People did this with Melee and still do it now in memorizing how a stage changes over time. Hell, there's even a timer running so you don't even mentally have to keep track of time. This is something All-Brawlers are quickly learning to adapt to, and also is turning into one hell of a mindgame.

 

[maXXXpower]

You mean like in Halo where you time the powerups and power weapons? Or the cloud in Melee? Those strategies work because the game is consistent in those stage events. The cloud is always in a certain area of Yoshi's story at a certain time, and the rockets always spawn every three minutes in the same place.

Do the items run on a timer? If they don't, your point is invalid.

Let's say I do become good or "skilled" and I can predict when items will drop. Can I "manipulate" luck and discern whether the item dropping is a pokeball or a bob-omb? What about other items like the clock and the thunderbolt? Can I "manipulate" luck and only receive the helpful aspects of the items?

If you said no to any of the above questions, you cannot, in fact, manipulate luck; rendering your argument invalid again. Your logic makes no sense. You can't manipulate luck because if you could, then it wouldn't be luck anymore.

Someone close this thread before my IQ drops.

Edit:

pshh.

pfft.

 

[kr3wman]

This is hopeless.

Manipulating luck?

A Feb 08' member insulting a March 08' member?

I can't believe this.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

You mean like in Halo where you time the powerups and power weapons? Or the cloud in Melee? Those strategies work because the game is consistent in those stage events. The cloud is always in a certain area of Yoshi's story at a certain time, and the rockets always spawn every three minutes in the same place.

Do the items run on a timer? If they don't, your point is invalid.

They run on a timer in the sense that they spawn on a fairly set interval which can be easily "gotten into the rhythm" and begin to predict what can possibly occur. In that sense, yes. Do they expire over time? Depends on the item.

Let's say I do become good or "skilled" and I can predict when items will drop. Can I "manipulate" luck and discern whether the item dropping is a pokeball or a bob-omb? What about other items like the clock and the thunderbolt? Can I "manipulate" luck and only receive the helpful aspects of the items?

If you said no to any of the above questions, you cannot, in fact, manipulate luck; rendering your argument invalid again. Your logic makes no sense. You can't manipulate luck because if you could, then it wouldn't be luck anymore.

Someone close this thread before my IQ drops.

So... because you can manipulate the luck to your advantage when you can and it actually can make or break everything (at spawn), but you can't control the outcome, you still can't manipulate? Way to go around in circles.

The most luck involved in terms of what can make or break a game is spawn. What, where, when. You can predict when. You can manipulate where to always be near you by maintaining a majority control of the stage. You can expect what might spawn and prepare to react accordingly. Items that don't have a guaranteed outcome you know before the spawn of the item what they're capable of, and whether it's worth activating them. This is risk assessment and luck manipulation. I don't see where this can be a problem, other than the stakes are much higher, the punishment for taking such risks that much greater, and the ability to adapt to your situation that much more important. That may not be everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. Neither is high-stakes poker. Neither are the several hundred dollar money matches in Mahvel. But refusing to recognize the skill it takes is where you go from having your own opinion to being downright ignorant.

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

Oh no, you guys, a March 2008 member officially declared the argument over. Now we have to stop talking about it, lest we incur his wrath.
I'm not saying to judge someone by their join date or anything, especially given mine, but it doesn't make much sense for someone who hasn't been a part of the community for very long to have so much unwarranted self-importance.

You do understand that this is part of the very reason why there is such furor over Keits's "movement," right? Do you think it odd that, of all of the smash players in THE WORLD shoryuken.com could have interviewed, they interviewed Keits, who is pretty much new to the entire series, who (despite his claims that he would be a "top level pro in a matter of months" ) is unable of making it past the halfway point of standard sized tourney like seasons beatings 3?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

The reason people are giving Keits so much **** is because he is basically spitting in the fact of the smash community.

It's like telling a bunch of firefighters how to fight a fire YOUR way. It's their go****ded job, but you think your way is so much better, even though it's something THEY ARE TRAINED TO DO and they probably know the most effective methods to pull it off. When you accuse the firefighters of not knowing how to properly fight fires, that's when you get a problem.

We aren't going to reduce Brawl to a poker game, where you simply 'raise your chances' of not dying due to a random bomb. Competitive play is here PRECISELY to eliminate things like that. AlphaZealot is having such a great time with it because he placed so well.

 

[maXXXpower]

They run on a timer in the sense that they spawn on a fairly set interval which can be easily "gotten into the rhythm" and begin to predict what can possibly occur. In that sense, yes. Do they expire over time? Depends on the item.

Getting a rhythm does not make it any less luck-based.

So... because you can manipulate the luck to your advantage when you can and it actually can make or break everything (at spawn), but you can't control the outcome, you still can't manipulate? Way to go around in circles.

My comment on that was retardedly hypothetical--you can't predict exactly when/where items will spawn, much less what item it will be. I was retorting to your stance on manipulating luck and how it's impossible. Any inevitable instance of luck is detrimental to competitive play.

The most luck involved in terms of what can make or break a game is spawn. What, where, when. You can predict when. You can manipulate where to always be near you by maintaining a majority control of the stage. You can expect what might spawn and prepare to react accordingly. Items that don't have a guaranteed outcome you know before the spawn of the item what they're capable of, and whether it's worth activating them. This is risk assessment and luck manipulation. I don't see where this can be a problem, other than the stakes are much higher, the punishment for taking such risks that much greater, and the ability to adapt to your situation that much more important. That may not be everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. Neither is high-stakes poker. Neither are the several hundred dollar money matches in Mahvel. But refusing to recognize the skill it takes is where you go from having your own opinion to being downright ignorant.

Translation:

Just guess.

 

[Bocom]

So... because you can manipulate the luck to your advantage when you can and it actually can make or break everything (at spawn), but you can't control the outcome, you still can't manipulate? Way to go around in circles.

The most luck involved in terms of what can make or break a game is spawn. What, where, when. You can predict when. You can manipulate where to always be near you by maintaining a majority control of the stage. You can expect what might spawn and prepare to react accordingly. Items that don't have a guaranteed outcome you know before the spawn of the item what they're capable of, and whether it's worth activating them. This is risk assessment and luck manipulation. I don't see where this can be a problem, other than the stakes are much higher, the punishment for taking such risks that much greater, and the ability to adapt to your situation that much more important. That may not be everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. Neither is high-stakes poker. Neither are the several hundred dollar money matches in Mahvel. But refusing to recognize the skill it takes is where you go from having your own opinion to being downright ignorant.

That's more like prediction than manipulation.

The difference? Well, prediction is more or less what's quoted here. Manipulation, on the other hand, would be controlling what the next item would be. I will now use a TAS example:

Imagine a game that randomly drops an item according to a random sequence. Suppose that this random sequence is based on the frame it was triggered. If you would kill an enemy at an exact frame, you could easily manipulate the item outcome by simply killing the enemy at the desired frame. That's how luck manipulation works, at least in the world of TAS.

Image example:

Another scenario is the Final Sigma boss fight in Megaman X4. You can manipulate him depending on where you currently stand in the level. If you stand at a certain place when he's changing forms, then you could more or less choose his next form. This is manipulation, because it's on your terms.

It can't be exact manipulation, because we can't control the item that's appearing. We can only expect. The only thing you really manipulate is where you are in relation to the item spawn. And that's more or less tied to predicting where it most likely will spawn, and thus act accordingly.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

That's more like prediction than manipulation.

The difference? Well, prediction is more or less what's quoted here. Manipulation, on the other hand, would be controlling what the next item would be. I will now use a TAS example:

Imagine a game that randomly drops an item according to a random sequence. Suppose that this random sequence is based on the frame it was triggered. If you would kill an enemy at an exact frame, you could easily manipulate the item outcome by simply killing the enemy at the desired frame. That's how luck manipulation works, at least in the world of TAS.

Another scenario is the Final Sigma boss fight in Megaman X4. You can manipulate him depending on where you currently stand in the level. If you stand at a certain place when he's changing forms, then you could more or less choose his next form. This is manipulation, because it's on your terms.

It can't be exact manipulation, because we can't control the item that's appearing. We can only expect. The only thing you really manipulate is where you are in relation to the item spawn. And that's more or less tied to predicting where it most likely will spawn, and thus act accordingly.

What you're speaking of are extremes. When it comes to something that is based around something out of anyone's control, it's much more of a gray area. There are no absolutes. There are no guarantees. Knowing your chances in each given situation, however, you can drastically improve your chances to the point where all the "random bull****" goes away. What you're left with is merely what you might find too overpowering. That can be subjective.

The biggest aspect of the three random factors of items, where, is quite easy to manipulate. The more you control the stage, the more you control the items. If your opponent is off the stage, you have free reign for that time. The ideal goal when it comes time to expect that spawn, if you so choose, is to remove your opponent from the equation as much as possible, distract your opponent as much as possible, or allow your opponent to be baited and punish while they're focused on said spawn. What and when can't be directly manipulated, but there are aspects of items play where you can expect outcomes and manipulate that way (Dragoon's the primary example here), as well as going back to the beginning in knowing when the best time is to change your focus.

Translation:

Fun fact: mindgames are for the most part merely guessing games. You can't read into the mind of a (competent) opponent, but you can guess their next action. If you don't need to take risks and know exactly what is going to occur from your opponent when and how to guaranteed stop it, either you're being told by your opponent what is about to happen or your opponent fails hard at mindgames. The only difference here is that you KNOW there's never going to be any predictability. You can't bait the game's generation system into a set pattern, you can't force the game to a specific drop point, but you do know well ahead of time to constraints the system has before you even start. What you don't know you learn through experience. Knowing what to expect when and preparing for the potential outcomes will be the best help you can get when it does spawn and from that point, luck all but vanishes. At that very point, you know everything that can and will happen (or at least you should), and be able to analyze and adapt accordingly.

 

[maXXXpower]

First: mindgames does not merely involve guessing where your opponent might go whether in a combo or not, but it involves conditioning (real manipulation); guessing correctly is only a tiiiiiny part of mindgames. It does not apply when the game (note: the game is not another player or opponent) drops a bob-omb on you. There are no mindgames involved if that happens. Plus, computers don't have minds.

Second: your shallow interpretation of mindgames leads me to believe you don't know wtf you're talking about.

 

[kr3wman]

What you're speaking of are extremes. When it comes to something that is based around something out of anyone's control, it's much more of a gray area. There are no absolutes. There are no guarantees. Knowing your chances in each given situation, however, you can drastically improve your chances to the point where all the "random bull****" goes away. What you're left with is merely what you might find too overpowering. That can be subjective.

The biggest aspect of the three random factors of items, where, is quite easy to manipulate. The more you control the stage, the more you control the items. If your opponent is off the stage, you have free reign for that time. The ideal goal when it comes time to expect that spawn, if you so choose, is to remove your opponent from the equation as much as possible, distract your opponent as much as possible, or allow your opponent to be baited and punish while they're focused on said spawn. What and when can't be directly manipulated, but there are aspects of items play where you can expect outcomes and manipulate that way (Dragoon's the primary example here), as well as going back to the beginning in knowing when the best time is to change your focus.



Fun fact: mindgames are for the most part merely guessing games. You can't read into the mind of a (competent) opponent, but you can guess their next action. If you don't need to take risks and know exactly what is going to occur from your opponent when and how to guaranteed stop it, either you're being told by your opponent what is about to happen or your opponent fails hard at mindgames. The only difference here is that you KNOW there's never going to be any predictability. You can't bait the game's generation system into a set pattern, you can't force the game to a specific drop point, but you do know well ahead of time to constraints the system has before you even start. What you don't know you learn through experience. Knowing what to expect when and preparing for the potential outcomes will be the best help you can get when it does spawn and from that point, luck all but vanishes. At that very point, you know everything that can and will happen (or at least you should), and be able to analyze and adapt accordingly.

That's not ''skill'' or manipulating luck, as you say. It's just logical thinking. If I can predict when an item by counting to 10 seconds, of course you're going to do what it takes to take the item. It's the basic strategy behind ''Legendary Pokemons'' in Melee and its basic strategy in item play.

There's no experience you have to go through to understand, it's basic.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

First: mindgames does not merely involve guessing where your opponent might go whether in a combo or not, but it involves conditioning (real manipulation); guessing correctly is only a tiiiiiny part of mindgames. It does not apply when the game (note: the game is not another player or opponent) drops a bob-omb on you. There are no mindgames involved if that happens. Plus, computers don't have minds.

Second: your shallow interpretation of mindgames leads me to believe you don't know wtf you're talking about.

I know fully well that there's much more to mindgames than that. My point wasn't about that. When it comes to mindgames, my point is you can't have a mindgame with the engine. You CAN, however, expect everything that is to come about, and it's not hard considering the constraints the system has. We know the finite list of items that can drop, we know the spawn window, we know that items will spawn in a certain radius of the players, and we know a lot of the fundamentals of item usage.

The game might not be another player, but it is a 3rd factor to understand and work with at all times. If you know the game's about to spawn an item, and there's the possibility it could be a bob-omb or some other "on contact" item, what is risky to do until you can confirm? Throw out a large window, unstoppable attack. In the case of that video, MK either did not know this, or took the risk and paid for it. Which was it? I don't know. I'm not the MK player that died to the bob-omb. Crying cheap or broken because of this is not really valid. If you can prove that MK couldn't have done a thing (such as, say, the game spawned the item way too early), you might have something there.

That's not ''skill'' or manipulating luck, as you say. It's just logical thinking. If I can predict when an item by counting to 10 seconds, of course you're going to do what it takes to take the item. It's the basic strategy behind ''Legendary Pokemons'' in Melee and its basic strategy in item play.

There's no experience you have to go through to understand, it's basic.

Controlling the stage IS luck manipulation. You control the stage, you get the items. You don't control the stage, you're not going to get the items. Random is really moot in where considering this. As far as these things being so basic, it apparently isn't, judging by the overall response to the concept. Hell, it had to be pointed out in this thread alone that Dragoon parts stop other spawns. That, to me, is basic, but obviously not basic enough. The fact is, there's a lot of claim to knowledge on items here, but when the arguments start coming, a lot of people show their ignorance. It's kind of sad. But it's something that doesn't come without true experience in competitive items play. Most of who prefer items play understand the fundamentals 'cause we were around when Melee had items. It's what we're used to. Taking 'em out of play doesn't hurt our game, but with them in, we still know what to do.

 

[ftl]

There are no guarantees. Knowing your chances in each given situation, however, you can drastically improve your chances to the point where all the "random bull****" goes away.

And then you're back into hypotheticals.

YOU are claiming that it is possible to "improve your chances to the point where all the random bull****" goes away. How can you show that?

We can prove pretty easily that what item spawns is random. Just start up two matches, watch what items spawn, see that they're different.

We can prove that items can make a huge difference in the match, depending on which ones spawn. The example video, where Metaknight got KOed by a bomb spawning on top of him shows that that can happen.

So show us how the random bull**** can go away if you're good enough (even when your opponent is also good enough).

From what I've seen, in the matches that have been shown, it doesn't. Sure, in retrospect, every item is avoidable if you do the right thing - but what the right action is is only known AFTER the item spawns, but has to be taken BEFORE the item spawns.

(For example, you're saying MK was wrong in tornadoing to the stage, because of the risk of a bomb. On the other hand, MK was much closer to the center of the stage at the time of the item spawn, and if a beneficial item had spawned we'd be lauding him for his prescience in stage control! The difference between the two is the luck which will never go away, in this ruleset.)

 

[maXXXpower]

I know fully well that there's much more to mindgames than that. My point wasn't about that. When it comes to mindgames, my point is you can't have a mindgame with the engine. You CAN, however, expect everything that is to come about, and it's not hard considering the constraints the system has. We know the finite list of items that can drop, we know the spawn window, we know that items will spawn in a certain radius of the players, and we know a lot of the fundamentals of item usage.

The game might not be another player, but it is a 3rd factor to understand and work with at all times. If you know the game's about to spawn an item, and there's the possibility it could be a bob-omb or some other "on contact" item, what is risky to do until you can confirm? Throw out a large window, unstoppable attack. In the case of that video, MK either did not know this, or took the risk and paid for it. Which was it? I don't know. I'm not the MK player that died to the bob-omb. Crying cheap or broken because of this is not really valid. If you can prove that MK couldn't have done a thing (such as, say, the game spawned the item way too early), you might have something there.

That's the thing. You never "know" when an item is about to spawn. You can never prove anything because item spawns are random. You have anywhere between 3-10 seconds before an item spawns and you have little idea of where it will spawn, it seems. That window is not nearly enough to predict anything. And if you think you can predict it, you're reading too much into it.

You know, if you played with no items, prediction would be easy; noboby would get screwed over because of a hilariously placed bob-omb.

That's the way it's been done for years, and that's the way SWF is doing it now. Don't like it? Fine. Go play the kids on SRK or your basement buddies. There are other people that adopt these rules. You are not alone.

Anywoodle, I'm done.

 

[ftl]

The game might not be another player, but it is a 3rd factor to understand and work with at all times. If you know the game's about to spawn an item, and there's the possibility it could be a bob-omb or some other "on contact" item, what is risky to do until you can confirm? Throw out a large window, unstoppable attack. In the case of that video, MK either did not know this, or took the risk and paid for it. Which was it? I don't know. [I'm not the MK player that died to the bob-omb. Crying cheap or broken because of this is not really valid. If you can prove that MK couldn't have done a thing (such as, say, the game spawned the item way too early), you might have something there.

However, the difference is in where the punishment comes from.

When you are fighting the opponent, you do something risky, whether you get punished and how much depends on your opponent and how good they are. The higher their skill, the more you get punished.

In this case, the punishment depends on luck. MK did something risky; however, how much he was punished for it did NOT depend on his opponent, but rather the luck of the random number generator.

Controlling the stage IS luck manipulation. You control the stage, you get the items. You don't control the stage, you're not going to get the items.

However, how much that HELPS depends on which item spawns and when. If you and your opponent go back and forth in controlling the stage, there is no guarantee that the benefits to the two of you will be anywhere near equal, even if you're doing things equally well.

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

a thunderbolt could have just as easily spawned where the bob-omb spawned. one of the two would have helped MK the other would have hurt him.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

That's the thing. You never "know" when an item is about to spawn. You can never prove anything because item spawns are random. You have anywhere between 3-10 seconds before an item spawns and you have little idea of where it will spawn, it seems. That window is not nearly enough to predict anything. And if you think you can predict it, you're reading too much into it.

Um, yeah, you know nothing. 3-10 seconds? That's an awful big window and I'd agree with you then. However, the window is 10-14 under All-Brawl rules. Not exactly a big bend to wonder when an item's gonna spawn. Every 10 seconds, you KNOW an item will spawn soon. Not hard to predict at all.

That's the way it's been done for years, and that's the way SWF is doing it now. Don't like it? Fine. Go play the kids on SRK or your basement buddies. There are other people that adopt these rules. You are not alone.

Anywoodle, I'm done.

No one's trying to force you to play the game this way. Merely to accept that it's a legitimate option, even if you don't like it.

 

[maXXXpower]

As much as I'd like to continue arguing against someone with flawed logic, I've got better things to do with my time. My point has been made; items are completely random, and such things don't have a place in competition. No matter how much you argue it, that fact will never change. I never said items weren't legitimate; what I was trying to get at is that when luck is involved as it is with items, it turns less into competition and more into gambling.

There are people who enjoy playing with items, so go play with them. However, more often than not, they will be the first to john about them. This game was made in order to be customizable, so you can play how you want. This doesn't mean that you should go about a competitive forum and tell them how to play with arguments that have been disproven over and over again.

 

[XienZo]

Um, yeah, you know nothing. 3-10 seconds? That's an awful big window and I'd agree with you then. However, the window is 10-14 under All-Brawl rules. Not exactly a big bend to wonder when an item's gonna spawn. Every 10 seconds, you KNOW an item will spawn soon. Not hard to predict at all.

Ooh, this is interesting. The rules take out some of the randomness out by providing a much more constant rate of spawning. Thats one out of 3 main luck issues. Too bad it doesn't cover the "Which item comes out" and "Where it spawns"

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

=Cyntalan Maelstrom;5683383]Um, yeah, you know nothing. 3-10 seconds? That's an awful big window and I'd agree with you then. However, the window is 10-14 under All-Brawl rules. Not exactly a big bend to wonder when an item's gonna spawn. Every 10 seconds, you KNOW an item will spawn soon. Not hard to predict at all.

You never know what item will spawn though, it could be something that completely screws you over, like a bomb or something less drastic like a franklin badge.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Do the items run on a timer? If they don't, your point is invalid.

That's just it. Items do run on a timer.

You do understand that this is part of the very reason why there is such furor over Keits's "movement," right? Do you think it odd that, of all of the smash players in THE WORLD shoryuken.com could have interviewed, they interviewed Keits, who is pretty much new to the entire series, who (despite his claims that he would be a "top level pro in a matter of months" ) is unable of making it past the halfway point of standard sized tourney like seasons beatings 3?

I think that it was less that SRK chose Keits and more that Keits chose himself. I am fully aware of how much of a self-worshiping jerk Keits is, but I support him because I have a lot of respect for what he does, and because I think he's right. I'm not anywhere near as passionate about it as he is, nor will I ever be, because at the end of the day, I prefer All-Brawl for reasons that are more personal than widespread.

 

[ftl]

Hehe. Well, at this point, I think everything that can be said about this topic between us all has been said, so I'm going to call it a day and leave; I don't think I can say any more to persuade those who disagree, and vice versa.

I'll leave you all with a comic

http://xkcd.com/386/

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

You never know what item will spawn though, it could be something that completely screws you over, like a bomb or something less drastic like a franklin badge.

I don't quite get your point here. What spawns should be fairly irrelvent. You know what CAN spawn, and you should know how to handle anything that DOES spawn, so regardless of what spawns, you should already be prepared to handle it.

Case in point with the MK bob-omb bit. You know that explosives can spawn, you know the time to spawn is every 10 to 14 seconds, you know that 10 seconds have just passed. Is this exactly the best time to perform a move that takes 4 seconds to do and has a huge hitbox? Probably not.

The question shouldn't be whether or not you know what's coming ahead, but whether or not what's coming ahead can never be handled. If All-Brawl eventually causes the game to turn into a giant game of Red Light, Green Light, it might be time to revise the rules. But again, no one's devolved into this yet. They may never. Time will tell.

 

[XienZo]

I don't quite get your point here. What spawns should be fairly irrelvent. You know what CAN spawn, and you should know how to handle anything that DOES spawn, so regardless of what spawns, you should already be prepared to handle it.

Case in point with the MK bob-omb bit. You know that explosives can spawn, you know the time to spawn is every 10 to 14 seconds, you know that 10 seconds have just passed. Is this exactly the best time to perform a move that takes 4 seconds to do and has a huge hitbox? Probably not.

The question shouldn't be whether or not you know what's coming ahead, but whether or not what's coming ahead can never be handled. If All-Brawl eventually causes the game to turn into a giant game of Red Light, Green Light, it might be time to revise the rules. But again, no one's devolved into this yet. They may never. Time will tell.

Don't forget the third "luck" issue, where it will spawn. This combined with what item appears might be aggrivating. You're on FD, lets say, and you've constantly been knocking off the foe to keep them off the stage every 10 seconds, but all you keep getting are Franklin badges and the like. And you're fighting MK. He finally knocks you back a foot with a ledge attack and a <insert easily KOing item here> appears in front of his face and they grab it while you're in the tiny amount of Brawl hitstun. Thats what makes everyone here hate items.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Don't forget the third "luck" issue, where it will spawn. This combined with what item appears might be aggrivating. You're on FD, lets say, and you've constantly been knocking off the foe to keep them off the stage every 10 seconds, but all you keep getting are Franklin badges and the like. And you're fighting MK. He finally knocks you back a foot with a ledge attack and a <insert easily KOing item here> appears in front of his face and they grab it while you're in the tiny amount of Brawl hitstun. Thats what makes everyone here hate items.

It's a nice argument, but the flaw is the idea of <insert easily KOing item here>. To a seasoned items player, this doesn't really exist. The closest thing you could claim in this scenario is curry and some Final Smashes. Only because of FD. In all honesty, FD is a terrible stage, especially for items. It's the stage most likely to cause a number of the worst case scenarios because the stage is both small and there's no terrain to assist in potential escape. It's a risky stage to counterpick because of the fact that the control factor is in favor of whoever is in the moment. Solution? Stop pickin' this **** stage! There's several dozen other stages to choose from in All-Brawl, most of which will give you the terrain options necessary to better handle a lot of the doom scenarios.

As far as answering to the "where" part of the luck, I believe I've already answered this several times now.

 

[aeghrur]

I don't quite get your point here. What spawns should be fairly irrelvent. You know what CAN spawn, and you should know how to handle anything that DOES spawn, so regardless of what spawns, you should already be prepared to handle it.

Case in point with the MK bob-omb bit. You know that explosives can spawn, you know the time to spawn is every 10 to 14 seconds, you know that 10 seconds have just passed. Is this exactly the best time to perform a move that takes 4 seconds to do and has a huge hitbox? Probably not.

The question shouldn't be whether or not you know what's coming ahead, but whether or not what's coming ahead can never be handled. If All-Brawl eventually causes the game to turn into a giant game of Red Light, Green Light, it might be time to revise the rules. But again, no one's devolved into this yet. They may never. Time will tell.

The time eliminates some randomness, not all.
Also, so what if you know what COULD spawn? It's one out of what, 3x chances? That's a lot of guess work. I mean, say your trying to go to the center with a move that just happens to have a hitbox, ex. Sheik's up-B to the center of Pokemon Stadium 1. Well, things can happen, a lot, and what will happen? Who knows. =/ I mean, you could go there and the item spawns near the edge, your opponent gets it even though you had kept him off until just then. Well, it might be more fair if they get a bad item, but what if as Xienzo stated, they get a great item that can kill you? A bomb could also just happen to drop on you right as you appear in the center causing your hitbox to hit it and boom. Or, you can get a smashball there and just break it. You can also get an item that spawns random stuff. Or maybe you get a sandbag and all your work of keeping him offstage goes to nothing. There's too many possibilities and there's too much randomness/luck involved. =/ I just listed some of the countless ones.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

The time eliminates some randomness, not all.
Also, so what if you know what COULD spawn? It's one out of what, 3x chances? That's a lot of guess work. I mean, say your trying to go to the center with a move that just happens to have a hitbox, ex. Sheik's up-B to the center of Pokemon Stadium 1. Well, things can happen, a lot, and what will happen? Who knows. =/ I mean, you could go there and the item spawns near the edge, your opponent gets it even though you had kept him off until just then. Well, it might be more fair if they get a bad item, but what if as Xienzo stated, they get a great item that can kill you? A bomb could also just happen to drop on you right as you appear in the center causing your hitbox to hit it and boom. Or, you can get a smashball there and just break it. You can also get an item that spawns random stuff. Or maybe you get a sandbag and all your work of keeping him offstage goes to nothing. There's too many possibilities and there's too much randomness/luck involved. =/ I just listed some of the countless ones.

*headdesk*

...Alright, here's the fact about why we differ here. We accept what little randomness exists because the added depth greatly outweighs it. Reusing the same "what if" scenarios already said by others even is making me think you don't read. You prepare anything. You adapt. You know if it's time due for an item to spawn, try not to do certain things that will leave you in a compromising position to die such pathetic deaths. If you get a "meh" item, either ignore it or convince your opponent it's worth getting and beat him down for trying. If it's really that "meh", does it really matter? If it happens to be a good item, either use it to your advantage or bait your opponent. If they get it, counter/avoid. With almost no exception, every item in this game has some method of dealing with it. From running away from the Starman, to reflecting the curry, to perfect shielding the hammer user, to ledgestalling against a Final Smash.

 

[aeghrur]

*headdesk*

...Alright, here's the fact about why we differ here. We accept what little randomness exists because the added depth greatly outweighs it. Reusing the same "what if" scenarios already said by others even is making me think you don't read. You prepare anything. You adapt. You know if it's time due for an item to spawn, try not to do certain things that will leave you in a compromising position to die such pathetic deaths. If you get a "meh" item, either ignore it or convince your opponent it's worth getting and beat him down for trying. If it's really that "meh", does it really matter? If it happens to be a good item, either use it to your advantage or bait your opponent. If they get it, counter/avoid. With almost no exception, every item in this game has some method of dealing with it. From running away from the Starman, to reflecting the curry, to perfect shielding the hammer user, to ledgestalling against a Final Smash.

See, what I see is, there's too many what ifs. Countless, innumerable number of what ifs added simply because of items. Also, you don't just prepare for anything, you have to prepare for EVERYTHING because of the what ifs. There is too many things to predict/prepare for so the only thing you can do is adapt. That's logical, of course. =/ But come on, as for the item part, you can't tell me it's not unfair. You can adapt, but you have to admit it's not fair. =/ I don't care how you handle it because it can be as skillful as you want, but it is not fair to both sides and definitely skews results.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

See, what I see is, there's too many what ifs. Countless, innumerable number of what ifs added simply because of items. Also, you don't just prepare for anything, you have to prepare for EVERYTHING because of the what ifs. There is too many things to predict/prepare for so the only thing you can do is adapt. That's logical, of course. =/ But come on, as for the item part, you can't tell me it's not unfair. You can adapt, but you have to admit it's not fair. =/ I don't care how you handle it because it can be as skillful as you want, but it is not fair to both sides and definitely skews results.

Fair should not be a concern. It's fairly arbitrary to draw a line where fair is in a game's design.

The only what if's that should be of concern directly from the random are the ones that would truly be detrimental by the spawn alone (IE being wary of an item spawn in your path). Other than that, it's really just making a decision on the risks involved: Is it worth letting up on your offense for the coming spawn, or should you wait to see what appears before doing so?

 

[IvanEva]

I'll leave you all with a comic

http://xkcd.com/386/

Haha, that has to be the single greatest comic I've ever seen. It sums up just about everybody on any and every message board/Youtube comment thingies on the internet. Good stuff.

This has been a good thread with good posts on both sides of the argument.

These are my summed up views:
- All-Brawl can be played competitively with the skilledest (if you can understand it, it's a word ) player winning over the less skilled ones.
- SBR-Brawl and All-Brawl both have an element of luck present in them but All-Brawl's luck factor is much more significant. However, skill is overwhelmingly more important than luck in both styles.
- All-Brawl is "deeper" (more to learn) than SBR-Brawl and calls for greater adapability skills.
- All-Brawl has not been thoroughly tested. Nothing "broken" has been found out. The rare bomb-spawn-kill has not been given an actual chance/enough time for counter measures to be developed.
- Items, along with the 3/5 rounds and three minute timer, make the SBR-banned stages playable.
- SBR-Brawl works fine and is a lot of fun... but so is All-Brawl.
- With proper promoting and exposure All-Brawl will eventually become accepted and not insulted by players who don't like it (which is very similar to how casual players insult "tourney***s"). While I don't suspect that it'll be any sort of majority tournament standard for a long while, if ever, it has a high chance of being adopted by many players.

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

List of easily KO-ing items:
Bob-Omb
Final Smash
Fan
Curry
Smart Bomb
Starman
Hammer
Golden Hammer
Bumper

List of Items that drastically change the way a character or all characters are played:
All of the above
Screw Attack
Franklin Badge
Giant/Poison Mushroom
Metal Box
Sticky Bomb
Motion-Sensor Bomb
Party Balls
Blast Crates

By introducing items, it turns Brawl into a different metagame. That's not necessarily bad, but it would not replace the current metagame. It would exist alongside it, if it becomes possible.

That said, the luck issue still needs to be addressed.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I don't quite get your point here. What spawns should be fairly irrelvent. You know what CAN spawn, and you should know how to handle anything that DOES spawn, so regardless of what spawns, you should already be prepared to handle it.

Case in point with the MK bob-omb bit. You know that explosives can spawn, you know the time to spawn is every 10 to 14 seconds, you know that 10 seconds have just passed. Is this exactly the best time to perform a move that takes 4 seconds to do and has a huge hitbox? Probably not.

The question shouldn't be whether or not you know what's coming ahead, but whether or not what's coming ahead can never be handled. If All-Brawl eventually causes the game to turn into a giant game of Red Light, Green Light, it might be time to revise the rules. But again, no one's devolved into this yet. They may never. Time will tell.

But should you play as though it's always going to be a bomb? Even if a lot of the time it isn't? Throwing out that attack might get you a KO (or edge guard ot KO etc.) but it also has a small chance of killing you instead. So which which is the "right" decision? Should the "right" decision be determined at random? I don't know, it just seems unfair for players to have to make such an important decision on chance. Now everyone's going to be afraid to attack near spawns.

 

[DRaGZ]

You mean like in Halo where you time the powerups and power weapons? Or the cloud in Melee? Those strategies work because the game is consistent in those stage events. The cloud is always in a certain area of Yoshi's story at a certain time, and the rockets always spawn every three minutes in the same place.

Do the items run on a timer? If they don't, your point is invalid.

Let's say I do become good or "skilled" and I can predict when items will drop. Can I "manipulate" luck and discern whether the item dropping is a pokeball or a bob-omb? What about other items like the clock and the thunderbolt? Can I "manipulate" luck and only receive the helpful aspects of the items?

If you said no to any of the above questions, you cannot, in fact, manipulate luck; rendering your argument invalid again. Your logic makes no sense. You can't manipulate luck because if you could, then it wouldn't be luck anymore.

Someone close this thread before my IQ drops.

Edit:

pshh.

pfft.

You would need Scarlet Witch powers to make this work.

 

[Animeko]

I want to bow out of this discussion, as the level of misinformation is a bit too high to even try to have a real discussion. As AlphaZealot said, most of you are not qualified to have this discussion. I just wanted to comment on this:

List of easily KO-ing items:
Bob-Omb - Shieldable, Dodgable, Catchable
Final Smash - Situational, stage and character dependent.
Fan - Predictable, Can be positioned to make it less effective if it does hit, can be DIed out of, situational based on stage and character matchup.
Curry - Situational, stage depended, reflectable, makes every container and bomb spawn a personal danger while active.
Smart Bomb - Can easily be DIed out of, leaving you both on safe ground and having taken less than 15%, rarely if ever KOs
Starman - Run away for 10 seconds, possible on all stages, downright easy on most.
Hammer - This item is such a joke to competitive players that they rarely risk picking it up. The person holding the hammer is at great risk of items being thrown at them while they can do nothing, being projectile locked while they can do nothing, clashing and losing the hammer head while they can do nothing, being perfect shielded and thrown, at which point they can do nothing, otherwise its absurdly easy to just ledge stall.
Golden Hammer - A little harder, but many of the techniques that make the black hammer such a joke apply here too, and it is one of the few items with a long spawn animation, so it never really 'appears in someones lap' without warning.
Bumper - Blockable. Travels only a set distance.

List of Items that drastically change the way a character or all characters are played:
All of the above
Screw Attack
Franklin Badge
Giant/Poison Mushroom
Metal Box
Sticky Bomb
Motion-Sensor Bomb
Party Balls
Blast Crates

By introducing items, it turns Brawl into a different metagame. That's not necessarily bad, but it would not replace the current metagame. It would exist alongside it, if it becomes possible.

That said, the luck issue still needs to be addressed.

The 'Luck issue' is a non issue. Either you accept that luck is part of competitive gaming, or you do not. Double Elimination, as stated, is a highly random format to begin with, and will give you nearly unacceptably skewed results past the top 2-4 players (depending on the size of the bracket and seeding) every time. This is acceptable to most competitive groups because the alternatives take far too long, and only the top few players get money anyway, so any inaccuracies beyond the top 2-4 players do not matter.

Beyond the randomness that Double Elimination gives you, look at games like Poker, Backgammon, and Magic the Gathering. All very competitive games, all chock full of randomness. Its not that 'randomness has no place in competitive gaming', its that you 'prefer as little randomness as possible in the competitive games you choose to play'. And thats okay! I think the first step to enjoying all-brawl on a competitive level is to stop blaming everything but yourself for each loss, and really examining how you can play differently using what you know about what will/might happen to keep winning.

 

[Aznpkilla]

Beyond the randomness that Double Elimination gives you, look at games like Poker, Backgammon, and Magic the Gathering. All very competitive games, all chock full of randomness. Its not that 'randomness has no place in competitive gaming', its that you 'prefer as little randomness as possible in the competitive games you choose to play'. And thats okay! I think the first step to enjoying all-brawl on a competitive level is to stop blaming everything but yourself for each loss, and really examining how you can play differently using what you know about what will/might happen to keep winning.

Don't we use the phrase no johns for just that? Lol.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Beyond the randomness that Double Elimination gives you, look at games like Poker, Backgammon, and Magic the Gathering. All very competitive games, all chock full of randomness. Its not that 'randomness has no place in competitive gaming', its that you 'prefer as little randomness as possible in the competitive games you choose to play'. And thats okay! I think the first step to enjoying all-brawl on a competitive level is to stop blaming everything but yourself for each loss, and really examining how you can play differently using what you know about what will/might happen to keep winning.

Er...competitive magic players tailor their decks to reduce randomness, not add it back in. Hence the popularity of tutors and card drawing effects.

 

[Nasanieru]

I stopped reading after the first paragraph. You're either a troll or a complete idiot

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Er...competitive magic players tailor their decks to reduce randomness, not add it back in. Hence the popularity of tutors and card drawing effects.

QFT. That's why most high-end Burn decks can kill you within the second or third turn. They almost always get the cards they need off of the draw.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Animeko]

Er...competitive magic players tailor their decks to reduce randomness, not add it back in. Hence the popularity of tutors and card drawing effects.

And you should try tailoring your gameplay choices to reduce the effects that randomness has on you as well, if you choose to try all-brawl competitively. Or, you could try to remove as much of it from the game as you deem acceptable and play that way. The problem here is not that randomness exists in competitive games. Its that many of you, for some reason, think that a game cannot be competitive with randomness. This is merely a preference, as I'm sure I've hammered in by now, and no one is doing any wrong by traveling out to tournaments and entering any game played in any variation they like. The only people doing wrong are those condemning others using misinformation and lies for not thinking the way they do. Good old crusades!

You say "see, the bomb killed him while he was recovering, thats proof that this way of playing is broken".

You should say "see, the bomb killed him while he was recovering, and i dont really enjoying dealing with that element, so I dont want to play those rules."

Its about what amount of randomness is acceptable to YOU. You can't get rid of it entirely, as you've chosen to believe that Peach, Luigi, Game and Watch, Dedede, etc, are all acceptable amounts of randomness. You also play double elim, which has plenty of random too. To some people, whatever a game has in it is acceptable. To others, it is not.

The only solution here is to live in (play in?) harmony. Support the scene. Help it grow. Support all formats for your game, even if you personally don't want to enter more than one of them.

 

[DRaGZ]

The only solution here is to live in (play in?) harmony. Support the scene. Help it grow. Support all formats for your game, even if you personally don't want to enter more than one of them.

Why would I support a format that I believe isn't worth supporting?