Meta Is 3 stock better than 2?

[Baby_Sneak]

Ssb64 has touch of deaths with suicidal shields and rolls and super weak and bad recovery options, making it super punishing for mistakes. 5 stocks since you can die so so easy in that game.

Melee had near ToD with tech chasing and edge guarding, not to mention chain grabbing, and shield pressure being a option for all characters in the game. Again, very punishing so 4 stock with how easy it is to take stocks and the added and better defensive options only help slightly.

Brawl came and everything changed. Defensive options became bonkers, offense was weakened a bit, recoveries are buffed up heavily, Hitstun canceling, and more. The game looked to be super forgiving until MetaKnight showed his true colors and killed everyone not MetaKnight himself offstage. Snake, diddy, Olimar, Marth, and Falco became known as characters that deal heavy amounts of damage and that takes control of the entire stage if not engaged quickly enough. However, out of all the top tiers ICs came out and just gave the ultimate sentence to anyone that messed up around them; death. So, with all of this, brawl took 3 stock since they spent more time in the neutral and was harder up take stocks than previous smash games. Reasonable

Now here we are with smash 4. We don't have nearly as a developed meta as those games before us and we're still figuring things out. I think in order to do this, we must be in environments where it's less stressful and are open to experimentation and testing on real opponents. I suggest 3 stock as the game RIGHT NOW isn't on the level of brawl in punishment (customs off, that is. And customs are a different mater as a whole), but who knows what may happen? Nobody expected brawl to be the game it is at a top tevel (9B vs nairo/.ZeRo match), nobody knew that ICs would develop into the beast they are, and nobody thought that ZSS could pull a kill setup off of Dsmash like Salem did at apex, so again let's compare: smash 4 removed Hitstun canceling, edge trump and removed edge invincibility after repeated use, air dodge lag, weaker shields/stronger attack, but gave a time limit on how much can you grab, removing chain grabs. However, sheik, greninja, little Mac, capt. Falcon, Luigi, ZSS (Down-B kill setups), sheik (ZeRo), and more characters are coming soon to be very punish heavy and brutal for when you make a mistake.

So TL:DR, 3 stocks since the game is still evolving and characters are doing much more than a few strings when you mess up.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I feel that we currently don't play the game at an aggressive enough level/aren't enough hard punishes available to support 3 stock. In melee some stocks can be deleted as early as 10-15 seconds. Then again melee has a large amount of hitstun, moves with less lag, for insane combos/0-death. With the new ledge mechanics, you can't just snap on to the ledge while your opponent falls in agony. All in all, it's extremely rare to die before 50% thanks to Smash 4's mechanics.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I feel that we currently don't play the game at an aggressive enough level/aren't enough hard punishes available to support 3 stock. In melee some stocks can be deleted as early as 10-15 seconds. Then again melee has a large amount of hitstun, moves with less lag, for insane combos/0-death. With the new ledge mechanics, you can't just snap on to the ledge while your opponent falls in agony. All in all, it's extremely rare to die before 50% thanks to Smash 4's mechanics.

see my post =)

 

[Tenretsujin10]

see my post =)

I've read it, super thought out and accurate. But I still favor 2 stocks, I mean tournaments in the EU do 3 stocks and those matches take forever.

 

[Overswarm]

2 stock matches take forever, 1 stock is much better

 

[John12346]

I personally believe there's more or less an equal amount of competitive merit to both 2 and 3 stocks, but 3 stock tournaments definitely take a VERY long time. I've seen tournaments use 3 stocks and then run about 2-3 hours later than when they were using 2 stocks. And then they proceeded to switch back to 2 stocks.

#stockanswers

 

[PUK]

I've read it, super thought out and accurate. But I still favor 2 stocks, I mean tournaments in the EU do 3 stocks and those matches take forever.

It depends really. Granted a sheik vs sheik or a defensive diddy against pac man is slow as ****, but god i see most 3 stock match last 5 min, which is barely slower than in the 2 stock format.
Like you pointed, it's a matter of player. But rules are for player not viewer, and don't forget only few matches are streamed (even on a streamed tournament). We can't screw everyone because of some dude who will never watch them.
And about the tournament lasting, solutions exist. It's up to the TO and the community to make it fast: more set up, more than one man who hold the bracket, and respect to the schedule make things way more efficient and fast

 

[Gibbs]

When I'm playing in a match I definitely favor 3 stock. It makes the occasional SD or small mistake so much easier to deal with mentally. When I'm waiting for my next match in bracket, however, I'm glad that almost all the tournaments I go to are 2 stock format.

 

[Shouxiao]

The Meta of Smash 4 has actually only gotten faster as time goes on. At first things were a bit slow due to 3DS controls. Things have also improve with various gamplay patches. People also continue to find more technology for various characters and mechanics in Smash 4 are not use to their full potential yet. Honestly I think most characters have great off stage tactics that are not fully explored yet. Other characters that lack off stage game simply have the power to send others to the blast zone with ease.

In a way Smash 4 tournaments are going to be long anyway. 3 stocks and 8 mins is not going to take up a lot of extra time or any at all. It is the growing tournament scene. In fact I would even say Melee is going to take a heck of a lot of time this year. Lets compare Evo 2013, 2014, and 2015.

Melee Evo 2013 had 709 players
Melee Evo 2014 had 970 players.
Melee Evo 2015 shall have 1869 players.

That is literally almost double from last year. Smash 4 has a bit more than Melee. Ultimately I say the best thing to do is have more tournament setups. Likely in the future fighting game tournaments might even be more days or something due to the growing community. Not just Smash but other fighting games are having an increase in players. It is going to be up to tournament organizers to figure out what to do with a growing scene.

Again it is not rules like 3stock and 8mins that would take up so much extra time or any at all. Plus the meta is getting faster anyway. I think it is tournaments having a heck of a lot more players. That is not a bad thing though. Hey these days tournaments are streamed at places like Twitch.tv and honestly that just means more viewers.

 

[Raijinken]

The more 2-stock I watch or play, the more I hate it and want 3 stock. Heck, run 3/9 or 3/10 if we have to just to make stalling that much more infeasible.

 

[Sonicninja115]

For the player three stocks is better.
While I personally find two stock more fun to watch. I don't know, I think it works either way, however for large tournaments, 2 stock would be better or else the tournament would take soooo long.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I don't think it's very different either way. Just a shorter overal tournament time. My state started doing 2 stocks, and I don't see any difference, once so ever, in the gameplay. The comeback factor is still very real in 2 stock matches. They are no more or less "campy" or defensive.
Thus, I prefer 2 stocks. Mostly because after being at a tourney for over 6 hours I start getting burnt out, and I'm not playing my best when I really need to be.

 

[Ravine]

I prefer 3 stock as it gives me time and freedom to adapt and try new things.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I prefer 3 stock as it gives me time and freedom to adapt and try new things.

I like to do that in 2 stock, too, difference is that being creative, tricky, and catching others offguard in 2 stock means a lot more.

 

[Ravine]

I mostly do friendlies, so it doesn't really make sense to do a 2 stock tournament format when I can enjoy a longer game (without it being too long).
Does this thread apply to me?

 

[edde]

This 2-3 stock shenanigans was all caused by some smash bros worker who thought 2 stocks > 3 in for glory
a) he is dumb and thought... hey, im a game designer, i know more how this game should be played than their community, therefore, lets change the format a bit to prove IDFK
b) was a mistake, 3 is right next to 2
c) the guy was high

i prefer 3 stocks, play 3 stocks, and on 2 stock tournaments i always ask my opponents before the match that if they prefer 3 stocks we should do a 3 stock

 

[Pazx]

This 2-3 stock shenanigans was all caused by some smash bros worker who thought 2 stocks > 3 in for glory
a) he is dumb and thought... hey, im a game designer, i know more how this game should be played than their community, therefore, lets change the format a bit to prove IDFK
b) was a mistake, 3 is right next to 2
c) the guy was high

i prefer 3 stocks, play 3 stocks, and on 2 stock tournaments i always ask my opponents before the match that if they prefer 3 stocks we should do a 3 stock

You're welcome to prefer 3 stocks (I do as well) but if you're in a tournament you should not be adjusting the stock count or the set count (without asking the TO?) as these things can have a larger impact than you'd expect.

 

[blackghost]

ONly think two stock was adpoted because of for glory. This game is inherently more offensive than brawl yet we neutered the progression of the game by making everyone defensive. Two stocks discourages risk, innovation, and offstage edge guarding. Ironically three things that make the game more fun to watch. How many times on a melee highlight reel do you see a suicide stock kill? how many times in smash 4? The game is designed for deep interesting offstage gameplay but two stocks hugely discourages that.
With customs it should be 3 stock because some kill options are amazing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What are you talking about?
2 stocks does NOT discourage innovation or offstage edge guarding. They actually get buffed.

 

[Lustful_Kaiser]

I like 3 stocks when its 1v1 matches but when its 3 or more players I'll rather have 2 stocks just because it takes longer than 5 minutes (I normally play 5min matches with friends).

 

[blackghost]

What are you talking about?
2 stocks does NOT discourage innovation or offstage edge guarding. They actually get buffed.

Why go off strage where one mistake is half my stocks? The risk reward isn't bal;ance and if i forced my opponent offstage what is my incentive to go finish them early right now? Even with the new ledge mechanics I see more offstage game play from locals and scenes that run three stocks.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Edgeguarding is entirely matchup AND player dependent.
If players don't feel like edguarding is their either their own fault or their characters', not the format's.

 

[Shouxiao]

After seeing how matches went in Evo 2015 for Smash 4 I honestly say that most stocks last between 60 to 90 seconds. Most 3 stock matches would likely average between 3 and 5mins. I say 3stock and 8mins is a good middle ground for things. Players have enough time to fight were timeouts would rarely happen/come close to happening.

As for tournament length, organizers never had tournaments these side before. Look at how both Smash games were dealt with/are being dealt for Evo 2015. Heck with all the support Smash 4 is getting with DLC and patch + an improving faster meta game the scene is going to grow. There shall continue to be more and more players at small/local and major tournaments. Maybe we need more tournament setups. Maybe there needs to be more time or an extra day used for tournaments.

 

[icraq]

If Evo was 3 stock 8 minutes the tournament would still be running.

I don't even want to imagine how much longer some of the matches would've been.

 

[neohopeSTF]

I think 3 stock no customs is great (gimps and SDs not as powerful) but 3 stock with customs would be unbearable(custom villager/sonic).

 

[Shouxiao]

If Evo was 3 stock 8 minutes the tournament would still be running.

I don't even want to imagine how much longer some of the matches would've been.

Honestly I see the average match lasting around 5mins. The more campy sets might have been longer but not by too much. Most matches went by fast. Only matches that were bad were the custom stall sets on some characters. The sole purpose of some of those sets might as well be to run time out.

I think 3 stock no customs would is great (gimps and SDs not as powerful) but 3 stock with customs would be unbearable(custom villager/sonic).

I agree. I am mixed on custom sets. I do not have a problem with custom moves as long as they do no break the game. Thing is some can be too powerful. Some sets we saw have the potential of stalling out any match and that is a huge problem. Other fighting games have rounds and a timeout means only the round is lost. In Smash the match is lost with a timeout. On one hand they can help many characters. On the other hand some moves can be a problem if not outright broken.

Not sure what the fate of custom moves shall be. Some simply have to be regulated and can be broken. Most are fine though. Being honest the only custom moves that were balanced were Palutena and the Mii Fighters. Course the arguments would come up would it be fair if only Palutena and Mii Fighters got custom moves while the others characters(DLC as well) did not.

Customs could make the average speed of matches faster but may come at the cost of balance. Some as seen with Sonic and Villager like you said can have massive stall potential with little to no counterplay. In cases like that it would not matter what the rules were because almost every match would timeout/come close to timing out.

 

[Infinite901]

After EVO I'm now leaning a bit more to 2 stock, but I still prefer 3. Idk.

 

[Big-Cat]

ONly think two stock was adpoted because of for glory. This game is inherently more offensive than brawl yet we neutered the progression of the game by making everyone defensive. Two stocks discourages risk, innovation, and offstage edge guarding. Ironically three things that make the game more fun to watch. How many times on a melee highlight reel do you see a suicide stock kill? how many times in smash 4? The game is designed for deep interesting offstage gameplay but two stocks hugely discourages that.
With customs it should be 3 stock because some kill options are amazing.

So why is it that other 2D fighters don't do this sort of thing when corner punishment can be the all deciding factor? It's not the game's fault for discouraging innovation and risk. That is entirely on YOU (speaking in general).

 

[Terotrous]

I was initially more in favour of 3 stock, but honestly 2 stock is mostly fine. The only thing I don't like about 2 stock is than an SD virtually always decides the match, which isn't very hype.

 

[Tito Maas]

The more I play, the more I prefer two stock. I feel like three stocks is more redundant than not when you look at teh big picture. And I definitely don't see stuff like "I wanna try new things" and "what if I SD?" as serious counterpoints against two stocks because in a tournament setting, you shouldn't be practicing new things and you definitely shouldn't be SD'ing.

There's a post above about how two stocks hurt edge guarding because you might whiff and die... how many characters can whiff and die during edge guarding in this game with the edge mechanics and godlike ledge snap? If you're talking about getting KO'd by the opponent while you're down there, well that's gonna happen whether you have two or three or four or five stocks if you're not careful. If anything, there isn't going to be more edge guarding in this game because of the ledge snap, not tournament set rules.

I like the Smash 4 meta. I'm not in the business of making every game Melee. I love the risk-reward factor in this game that becomes especially prevalent with counterpicking (though this is nullified because for some reason players only ever want to go to Smashville). Two stocks places a huge importance on every stock and makes rage an actual factor as well as making every match exciting.

 

[Terotrous]

because in a tournament setting you definitely shouldn't be SD'ing.

They still happen, though, even in the tippy top level of play. Dabuz SD'd against Abadango in Top 8 at EVO and that basically decided that set.

 

[Tito Maas]

They still happen, though, even in the tippy top level of play. Dabuz SD'd against Abadango in Top 8 at EVO and that basically decided that set.

And why shouldn't it decide the set, especially at Top 8 in EVO?

And that wasn't quite an SD.

Seriously, though, why shouldn't a blunder so bad that you take your own life decide a match? You have to be mentally aware of your character the field, positioning, and ready to adjust on the fly in this game because unlike traditional fighting games, you can lose a life at any time. Especially the higher you go in tournaments and the larger tournaments you go to, you have much less room for error and suiciding or SD'ing should be the most egregious of these mistakes and should be penalized as such, no?

I can't honestly say I sympathize much with SD'ing at tournaments, especially at big ones like EVO.

 

[Terotrous]

I think the biggest reason against it is that it is an extremely unhype way to have a match be decided. It's kind of impossible to prevent SD's from putting you at a major disadvantage (even in 3 stock they are very damaging), but you don't really want it to be a death sentence.

Like I said, though, this is a fairly minor strike against 2-stock. I've sort of grown accustomed to it by now.

 

[neohopeSTF]

3 Stock would make gimps not game deciding if they happen on the first stock. Characters like Little Mac would be more viable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Characters like Little Mac would be more viable.

That's it. I'm done with the argument.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I think the biggest reason against it is that it is an extremely unhype way to have a match be decided. It's kind of impossible to prevent SD's from putting you at a major disadvantage (even in 3 stock they are very damaging), but you don't really want it to be a death sentence.

Like I said, though, this is a fairly minor strike against 2-stock. I've sort of grown accustomed to it by now.

I enjoy how damaging SD's are in this game, mainly because it is so difficult to SD in the first place. This isn't like old smash games where Airdodging offstage = death. If you are capable of SD'ing in this game due to tech skill error, it's deserved.

 

[Charey]

3 Stock would make gimps not game deciding if they happen on the first stock. Characters like Little Mac would be more viable.

I would say Little Mac is better in 2 stock, one KO punch and you are halfway to a win.

 

[Shouxiao]

2 Stock does benefit characters like Little Mac, Wario, and Mr. G&W.

Little Mac has the KO Punch. All he has to do is damage the other character on the second stock a bit and hit KO Punch.

Wario has his Wart 2mins into the match. If Wario gets rid of the 1st stock and gets a good combo or edge guard setup on the second stock he wins.

Mr.G&W with the luck of RNG have a level 9 Judge.

SDs are devastating in 2 stock. They are rare but if they happen for any reason the match is likely a lost. Gimps are more powerful as well.

Customs are fine but some may have to be banned due stall potential. The community shall figure out things though. I am sure we hate to see stall sets in the most skilled player hands.

For 3Stock and 8Mins I still say just give it a chance at major tournaments. At least there can be more data. Honestly I see things being around the same time or just slightly longer at most. Sometimes matches are going to drag out(it happens in all Smash games) but most would likely average 3 to 5mins long.

 

[Dr. Bread]

gimps very rarely happen though except in certain matchups. in smash 4, edgegaurds are much harder than in previous games, and almost always requires going off-stage and risking a loss of stage control (or worse, getting stagespiked) and no edge-hogging is possible.

 

[David Viran]

I enjoy how damaging SD's are in this game, mainly because it is so difficult to SD in the first place. This isn't like old smash games where Airdodging offstage = death. If you are capable of SD'ing in this game due to tech skill error, it's deserved.

ZSS is actually pretty SD prone. I still SD a little to much even though I got used to her recovery in brawl and nairo SD's with her a little too frequently as well.