Event - E3 Invitational 2014 Invitational Tournament competitive feedback (link)

[Time/SpaceMage]

Source: Melee It On Me
Haven't seen this posted here yet, so I'm making a topic for wider dissemination. This is a bunch of feedback on competitive mechanics; worth a good read if you haven't already.

EDIT: I'll repost it here since there's no swear filter on their site; the discussion afterwards gets rather offensive.

Spoiler

e3 Invitational Impressions

Posted by norcalmelee

Draft
1. Peachyhime – Villager
2. Hungrybox – Kirby
3. DJ Nintendo – Bowser
4. Milktea – Pikachu
5. Zero – Zero Suit Samus
6. Hugs – Megaman
7. PPMD – Fox
8. Toph – Pit
9. Crismas – Zelda
10. Ken – Marth
11. PewPewU – Mario
12. MacD – Greninja
13. aMSa – Olimar
14. KoreanDJ – Rosalina
15. Lilo – Wii Fit Trainer
16. Rapture – Little Mac

Old Melee

L-Cancel – doesn’t seem to be in
Wavedashing – Definitely no
Shield Drop – Yes
Short Hop – Yes

Old Brawl Techniques

Run–> Turnaround is doable
DACUS – No one could do it
Glide tossing – None
Laser Lock – similar to Falco Laser lock, We managed it with Pikachu

Edge Mechanics
- Invulnerability depends on a combination of:
o %
o Air Time
o Distance recovered
- No Edgehogging
o If you hold ledge, and someone else wants it after, you get kicked off
After kickoff, lag before you can do an action
- Brawl Ledge grab -> Run, turnaround grab ledge
- Ledge regrab doesn’t give invulnerability
- Run off stage somersault/tumble motion XX(cancellable) into action
- Run off stage grab edge in tumble (only certain characters)

Throwing
- Delay after throwing someone. Really hard to follow up
- No grab release infinites
- Mashing is doable *Unconfirmed*

Dashing
- Dash dancing is impossible
- Crouching to cancel dashing is impossible
- Pivot tilts are easy. Foxtrot is possible (F-Smash out of fox trot).
- Pivot F-smash is also doable
- Dashing is really questionable in this game
- U-Smash out of dash really easy (Flick C-stick)
- Standing grab out of full dash (shield+A, or shield + up cstick)

Spike
- Really Strong,

Crouch Cancel
- None

Shields
- No lightshielding
- Tilt shield is available

Out of Shield
- U-Smash out of shield very doable (Tested with Fox, same input as Melee)
- Shield grab available

Spot Dodge
- Really solid option

Air Dodge
- Multiple in one jump
- Air dodge land = massive lag

Meteor Cancel
- Meteor cancel is available, seems difficult to execute (TV lag?)

Techs
- Buffer wall techs DI
- Smash DI is not in (Tested with smart bombs) or significantly less than Melee? More testing needed
- DI is somewhat noticeable

Camera
- Doesn’t scale that well with people on edges/off-stage very well

Controls
- ¬Charge C-Stick smash attack charges

Character Specific
Mario (PewPewU)
- Fairly intuitive, similar to Melee/Brawl Mario
- Two aerials in one short hop
- Brawl D-Air
- Fair has two hit boxes (spike, non spike)

Fox (PPMD)
- Lag after shine
- No brawl cancel shine
- Short Hop laser = lag on land
- Up-Smash is nerfed (People lived at 110%, hitbox is smaller)
- Brawl Bair, Brawl Fair
- Brawl D-Throw
- Up+B is still great (Melee NTSC levels)

Marth
- Auto cancel BAIR is really good - No short hop 2x FAIR
- Sluggish compared to Melee

Little Mac - Super armor

Pikachu - Quick Attack has massive lag on landing (Not sure if you can )

Top tier
- Kirby
- Pit

High Tier
- Villager
- Zero Suit Samus
- Mario
- Wii Fit Trainer

Mid Tier
- Pikachu
- Sonic
- Fox
- Marth
- Greninja

Low Tier
- Bowser
- Zelda

Bottom Tier
- Little Mac (for FFA, TERRIBLE). Might be god-like on FD
- Bowser (DJN’s opinion)

???
- Olimar
- Rosalina
- Donkey Kong
- Link

 

[iRobinhoood]

Can we have a source?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

EXCELLENT info here.

 

[xLemmy_KoopaX]

- Delay after throwing someone. Really hard to follow up

This, put quickly, means no infinite grabs? Great, infinite chain grabs are pretty unhealty for the gameplay.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the balance yet since Sakurai is still balancing. And we've mostly seen FFA action and the players weren't really knowing everything yet. I guess a player that has practiced a lot can do a lot more with the characters, too.
We can only talk about the techniques now since the developers will probably change a lot less there.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

- Delay after throwing someone. Really hard to follow up

This, put quickly, means no infinite grabs? Great, infinite chain grabs are pretty unhealty for the gameplay.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the balance yet since Sakurai is still balancing. And we've mostly seen FFA action and the players weren't really knowing everything yet. I guess a player that has practiced a lot can do a lot more with the characters, too.
We can only talk about the techniques now since the developers will probably change a lot less there.

Even Brawl didn't have infinite CGs on any character but ICs. (I don't recall if Dedede/DK was infinite, or just absurd).

There ways to fix chaingrabs of inordinate length without completely butchering the grab's place in a combo arsenal and making characters unable to follow throws up at all. It's just such a poor way to go about it ... At least throws can be used for positional advantage now. Hopefully edgeguarding is potent enough to make stuff like that actually matter.

 

[Snowbird]

Watching kirby vs zero suit samus, the only real match we got to see, It was very clear who was the better player and who was the better character. Kirby looked pretty bad other than a decent throw, and zero suit looked amazing with great range and speed.

And everything looked SO SLOW. SO VERY SLOW.

 

[xLemmy_KoopaX]

Even Brawl didn't have infinite CGs on any character but ICs. (I don't recall if Dedede/DK was infinite, or just absurd).

There ways to fix chaingrabs of inordinate length without completely butchering the grab's place in a combo arsenal and making characters unable to follow throws up at all. It's just such a poor way to go about it ... At least throws can be used for positional advantage now. Hopefully edgeguarding is potent enough to make stuff like that actually matter

It didn't look like you couldn't properly follow up with an aerial or something. Rosalina for example still looked like she could make some crazy stuff with grabbing and up aerials.

And btw I don't know how slow it is compard to Melee, but it looks faster than Brawl.

 

[Snowfin]

Not being able to Dashdance is the worst thing that has happened to smash movement since Wavedashing and Wavelanding got removed. Sakurai is KILLING Smash's amazing way to move around one iteration after the other.

Such a shame, since movement is what makes Smash so amazing to play :/

 

[Shroob]

Those comments...

 

[JavierT56]

Every game they are just gonna keep removing movement options.
Smash 5 confirmed no moving just pressing a or b guys.

 

[BioZelink]

Not being able to Dashdance is the worst thing that has happened to smash movement since Wavedashing and Wavelanding got removed. Sakurai is KILLING Smash's amazing way to move around one iteration after the other.

Such a shame, since movement is what makes Smash so amazing to play :/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab31LkmKEys
00:50 looks like greninja is dash dancing. Don't judge a game that isn''t even out yet. It's not melee, and we will never get another melee. Just deal with it.

 

[c@m]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab31LkmKEys
00:50 looks like greninja is dash dancing. Don't judge a game that isn''t even out yet. It's not melee, and we will never get another melee. Just deal with it.

lmao you just beat me to it, i was just about to link that video. maybe dash dancing is just for some characters?... can't be so sure right now. but it is do able as of right now. The only things I want back besides dash dancing are edge hogging(invincibility) and melee air dodge (which isn't going to happen).

 

[Phyr]

Even Brawl didn't have infinite CGs on any character but ICs. (I don't recall if Dedede/DK was infinite, or just absurd).

There ways to fix chaingrabs of inordinate length without completely butchering the grab's place in a combo arsenal and making characters unable to follow throws up at all. It's just such a poor way to go about it ... At least throws can be used for positional advantage now. Hopefully edgeguarding is potent enough to make stuff like that actually matter.

Dedede was infinite in many characters in the cast, including Dedede xd.

 

[c@m]

actually, on this video of the Mii reveals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_YXkdJZwXc

you can see at about one or two seconds in, a mii goes flying onto the edge and you can clearly see the invincibility frames.
maybe it was just the demo that didn't contain some stuff that will be in the final game.
thoughts?

 

[e105beta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab31LkmKEys
00:50 looks like greninja is dash dancing. Don't judge a game that isn''t even out yet. It's not melee, and we will never get another melee. Just deal with it.

It's crap like this that makes me so confused at how much of a critical meltdown Smash Boards is having over Smash 4.

E3 Demos are NEVER, NEVER the final product. The demo we saw people play yesterday was most likely the state it was in 6 months ago, if not a year ago. I'm not surprised that dash dancing probably is in the game.

Seriously, if people decide that Smash 4 isn't for them, fine, but at least wait until the damn game is out before you go insane.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

lmao you just beat me to it, i was just about to link that video. maybe dash dancing is just for some characters?... can't be so sure right now. but it is do able as of right now. The only things I want back besides dash dancing are edge hogging(invincibility) and melee air dodge (which isn't going to happen).

He was TRYING to Dash Dance, but couldn't. At first he did it slow, like Melee, and got huge lag when pivoting. Then he started doing it ultra fast like Brawl (which is useless). That's why CT declared Dash Dancing as gone.

 

[Narpas_sword]

lel, anyone who thinks dashdancing is just going as fast as you can on one spot doesn't understand the application of dash dancing =p

 

[JCDied4U]

Why does DJNintendo think Bowser is so bad? Or was he just in a bad mood from losing in the first round?

 

[BioZelink]

It's crap like this that makes me so confused at how much of a critical meltdown Smash Boards is having over Smash 4.

E3 Demos are NEVER, NEVER the final product. The demo we saw people play yesterday was most likely the state it was in 6 months ago, if not a year ago. I'm not surprised that dash dancing probably is in the game.

Seriously, if people decide that Smash 4 isn't for them, fine, but at least wait until the damn game is out before you go insane.

That is actually from the demo at e3. This whole "feedback" is a bunch of crap, Melee players probably made it up by looking at a trailer or something. Almost everything in all of the feedbacks was false, i watched Nintendo Treehouse yesterday and a lot of the stuff that was said to be impossible was done in the demo.

Why does DJNintendo think Bowser is so bad? Or was he just in a bad mood from losing in the first round?

Yeah, he probably was. It looks like Bowser is faster overall and has less landing lag, how could he be worse? Plus in melee he is very low tier, but who knows.

actually, on this video of the Mii reveals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_YXkdJZwXc

you can see at about one or two seconds in, a mii goes flying onto the edge and you can clearly see the invincibility frames.
maybe it was just the demo that didn't contain some stuff that will be in the final game.
thoughts?

Invincibility frames are determined by damage and air time, so no frames by edge hogging, it's about time. Now you will have to win with skill, not with cheap tricks.

 

[[TSON]]

smash di is in idk why they're saying it's not. double stick di is still in too. and QAC/Spinshot are both removed.

 

[gamer8]

Those comments are so cancerous.

 

[Tristan_win]

smash di is in idk why they're saying it's not. double stick di is still in too. and QAC/Spinshot are both removed.

I'm sorry but could you give a link to the comments stating this? Or is this from your own personal experience

 

[Dark Phazon]

Wow.........

 

[[TSON]]

I'm sorry but could you give a link to the comments stating this? Or is this from your own personal experience

that's from my experience from playing yesterday

 

[c@m]

That is actually from the demo at e3. This whole "feedback" is a bunch of crap, Melee players probably made it up by looking at a trailer or something. Almost everything in all of the feedbacks was false, i watched Nintendo Treehouse yesterday and a lot of the stuff that was said to be impossible was done in the demo.


Yeah, he probably was. It looks like Bowser is faster overall and has less landing lag, how could he be worse? Plus in melee he is very low tier, but who knows.


Invincibility frames are determined by damage and air time, so no frames by edge hogging, it's about time. Now you will have to win with skill, not with cheap tricks.

that so called "trick" takes skill to execute

 

[MookieRah]

On the supposed video proof of dash dancing... That isn't really dash dancing that Greninja is doing. It seems like he is locked into the full dash length after the first couple of frames. So your choice is either dash dance pretty much in place (something which is borderline useless) or commit to full dashes.

It seems rather clear to me that he was actually experimenting with Greninja's movement at the beginning, as you see lots of fox trots and left right movement, and I think it's rather telling that after watching that video that there was not one single instance of good dash dance use. That is rather odd considering that Greninja's dash animation and dash speed aremazing (seemingly to melee CF levels or more) and would translate to an amazing dash dance game.

 

[[TSON]]

let me explain dash dancing to you

in melee you can dash backwards or forwards at any time during dash (the animation before you go into run)
in brawl you have only a couple of frames to dashdance before you're locked in the direction you're going. there is no true fox-trotting, you can only dash again after your dash ends.
in ssb4 you have a similar window to brawl for dashdancing but you can foxtrot at any time. and skid-turning is faster.

 

[BioZelink]

that so called "trick" takes skill to execute

Yeah, grab the ledge. It takes ages to learn...

 

[freezy]

Now at E3 might be the single best chance to get heard. Like I said in the other thread, did the guys from the Invitational used their chance to get that feedback to Nintendo? If not get in contact with them and tell them they shall do it. And they shall speak to the right persons, not some random booth reps. So they shall get directly to the NoA Treehouse guys (that were also running the streams) and give them real detailed feedback, cos NoA might have another word in Sakurai's plans. NoA must understand that it is possible that the game can both please the casual and the competitive audience (like Melee did), and that there must be some changes in Smash 4's design to please the competitive side. I think after all Nintendo (of America) wants Smash 4 to be successful in the competitive scene, and maybe they are just not aware of the problems.

 

[c@m]

Yeah, grab the ledge. It takes ages to learn...

i never said it took ages to learn but its hard to get down perfectly and is still a skill.

-you can accidentally miss the edge and walk off and be forced to recover
-if you don't time it right, you can get hit by their recovery before you grab the edge
-and with some recoveries you can be forced off the edge and end up being the one that dies from an edge hogged

 

[Cassio]

While its nice to hear the opinions of others, I think at this point the information is rather bad as far as making any sort of concrete judgements go. I think its mostly evident in the gameplay were seeing. At the moment its a bit difficult to tell whats really possible with the game, for instance I think many of the players aren't too competent at buffering follow ups which is pretty important for things like grab follow ups.

Another problem with a lot of analysis is that its done in the context of older games, for instance one of the common complaints I heard about the game was how slow Fox's shine was, and while I dont really care if dash dancing is in, the mechanic has the potential to be pretty polarizing. I think itd be one of the easiest ways to create imbalance in the game right off the bad, so Im not too concerned about its inclusion.

 

[BioZelink]

i never said it took ages to learn but its hard to get down perfectly and is still a skill.

-you can accidentally miss the edge and walk off and be forced to recover
-if you don't time it right, you can get hit by their recovery before you grab the edge
-and with some recoveries you can be forced off the edge and end up being the one that dies from an edge hogged

But in the end it is a lot easier than actually smashing the opponent out of the screen. Azen used to gimp people with Pichu in the early days. And to be honest, gimping really kills the hype, when you watch a huge set, and both opponents are on their last stock and one gets gimped, it's really disappointing.

 

[MookieRah]

let me explain dash dancing to you

in melee you can dash backwards or forwards at any time during dash (the animation before you go into run)
in brawl you have only a couple of frames to dashdance before you're locked in the direction you're going. there is no true fox-trotting, you can only dash again after your dash ends.
in ssb4 you have a similar window to brawl for dashdancing but you can foxtrot at any time. and skid-turning is faster.

Wow, condescending much? You didn't even respond to the point of what I wrote. What he is doing is technically "dash-dancing" but for all intents and purposes it accomplishes nothing. If your only options are to dash dance in place or remain forced into the entire dash animation, you cannot have a meaningful dash dance game, and by extension dash dancing as a movement mechanic is non-existant in Sm4sh.

 

[Renji64]

I hope they change it so you can dash dance movement is what make smash great.

 

[menotyou135]

Bowser bottom tier? Every best buy game I saw played that had bowser, the bowser won. The only exception was a game with two bowser players, where one got first and the other got second. Do not underestimate bowser in this game.

Sure it might just be that good players were picking bowser, but I watched well over 10 games with bowser and the first placing was very consistent.

 

[sunshinesan]

But in the end it is a lot easier than actually smashing the opponent out of the screen. Azen used to gimp people with Pichu in the early days. And to be honest, gimping really kills the hype, when you watch a huge set, and both opponents are on their last stock and one gets gimped, it's really disappointing.

Gimping is an amazing nuance in Smash that allows the losing player to potentially comeback with smarts and tactics. It creates excitement as anything can happen and truly rewards smart play and can potentially punish hubris. PPMD said in the doc how one of the biggest things in Smash are upsets, and gimping is one of the prime reasons this can be achieved easier than most other fighting games. If anything, it creates hype like no other.

"One stock is not a lead."

 

[[TSON]]

Bowser bottom tier? Every best buy game I saw played that had bowser, the bowser won. The only exception was a game with two bowser players, where one got first and the other got second. Do not underestimate bowser in this game.

Sure it might just be that good players were picking bowser, but I watched well over 10 games with bowser and the first placing was very consistent.

In a FFA if you're focusing on an opponent and suddenly a giant spiky ass falls from the sky and lands on you, you will probably not have a chance to react. From what I saw, that seemed to be like the only reason Bowsers were winning.

 

[Hitzel]

And to be honest, gimping really kills the hype, when you watch a huge set, and both opponents are on their last stock and one gets gimped, it's really disappointing.

I can't disagree with this more. The edge game is one of the most exciting things about Smash to me, especially since it makes clutch moments and comebacks very possible.

 

[Deleted member]

Who ever said dash dancing is not in is wrong, I tested it and was able to get Little Mac, Greninja, Wii Fit Trainer, ZSS, and Link to do it. Strangely I was not able to do it with sonic however.

 

[menotyou135]

In a FFA if you're focusing on an opponent and suddenly a giant spiky *** falls from the sky and lands on you, you will probably not have a chance to react. From what I saw, that seemed to be like the only reason Bowsers were winning.

I get that an all, but I was responding to the idea that bowser is bottom tier in this game. That idea is completely unjustified from my experience. He looks significantly faster in the air, his jump seems better, and his attacks seem to have much less startup lag than previous installments (I.E. most of the things that made him bad in previous games). Does that make him top tier? Probably not. All I am saying is that it seems like people are dismissing him just because he was poor in the previous games rather than looking at him as he is now. I don't think he will be bottom tier at all. I expect him to be low-mid tier, maybe even making it up to A-B character level if there aren't a whole lot of better characters.