Infinity; Concept or tangible?

[Fried Ice Cream]

Link to original post: [drupal=3745]Infinity; Concept or tangible?[/drupal]



So today I checked Smashboards as usual, but when I got to User Blogs I saw a Blog with a problem I've seen way too many times. It was Susa's "0.999... = 1" blog. I've seen it many times on other sites, with just a trollface saying "where is your maths now?"

This thread started a debate though and I just read along. The debate about approaching infinity came up, but what really struck me was a post by The Enema Squad:

Infinity doesn't exist, guys. It's just a concept.

At first I thought it was just a stupid post, because of course infinity had to exist. Just take a circle and find it's end. There you go, infinity.
However, this is just the concept of a circle. It's an infinite motion, a concept, but it's not tangible as infinite.
A circle is still just a portrait or object with a finite amount of particles that make up the object. This means that it can't go on forever.

What about the universe? Is that infinite? I'm not a stranger to theories about the universe, and I've heard it numerous times: The universe is finite. Everything is already there, it's just the light that we see that is finally reaching us. The edge of the universe is not what where we can't see, it's just objects whose light hasn't reached us. I personally believe the universe is finite, both in terms of size and lifespan, but this may vary for everyone.

I would just like to know, how do you expierence infinity? Is it nothing but a concept or a motion? Or is it actually tangible and are there infinite things in your daily life?

 

[Palpi]

Ifninity exists in mathematics, though it may be unable to comprehend, doesn't mean it can't exist. Everything in the universe always exists since "before time" in singularity. If m theory is correct, and if time begins with the big bang, then the membranes that the universes may exist outside of time thus being infinite.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

I'm not debating wether it exists anywhere or not, but if infinite is something that actually occurs, or something created by humans. For example, the mathematics infinity is created by humans to basically "fix" a problem. I'm not sure on this though, I think a maths student/teacher may shed more light on that >_<.

 

[Palpi]

Until the universe stops appearing to be growing (visible light stops etc) we will never know

 

[Ballistics]

keep counting until you die, and then have someone take your place, and so on and so on

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

What if the universe ends?

 

[Ballistics]

How can the universe end? If you mean, what if matter dissipates in the huge cosmological stretch caused by the big bang, then that might as well be infinite number of years away. The universe will still be here after matter is gone, it will just be empty

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Is something actually "there" in a true vacuum? I don't really believe that an space void of any particles can be called a space.

 

[Ballistics]

Yea something is actually there, I dont think all the particles are going to go away I think they are just going to rip apart, matter and energy cant really be destroyed

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Hm, yes, that does make sense, however, there won't be matter, just energy. I guess energy/matter could very well be the only thing that is infinite... Yet it would be everything.

 

[Palpi]

Watch quantum physics documentaries, it will blow your mind!

 

[Ballistics]

yea another way to think of infinity is size, you can imagine that you could keep getting smaller infinitely

 

[GwJ]

Infinity does not exist.

At least, not technically. Infinity is a math concept used identify something being so large that there's no number for it. We usually have the basis that:

4/0=Undefined or DNE (Does not exist)

However, conceptually you can use:

Any number/A number sooooooo close to zero that we'll call it zero.

The number is .00000000000000000000000000000000000000001 or something like that, we result with the following concept:

Big/Small #/Really Small # = Infinity

We also see concepts like:

Really Small #/Big/Small # = 0



Infinity isn't a tangible number, it's a concept.

 

[Palpi]

I think infinity can exist outside of our universe. Ofcourse I can't back up this claim and itmeans nothing lol

 

[Fatmanonice]

I would say it is a concept too because how would you even be able to even comprehend it if it even existed? Suppose you somehow counted all the atoms in the universe. Infinity would still be even more than that. How can you comprehend something that's even bigger than the universe that already contains everything? (Other dimensions aside.)

 

[GwJ]

Explain please? It's not a number, you can't reach it. What do you think is the highest number? I say it's:

938567919871239875980180673986509361509368957649560349856903465908659801690

There's always going to be a bigger number though:

938567919871239875980180673986509361509368957649560349856903465908659801691

It's like dividing 1 in half over and over expecting to hit zero eventually, it can't happen.

 

[Landry]

Our very ability to attempt to understand the concept of infinity makes it tangible. Clearly one can never be given a physical representation of infinity but our ability to argue reasonably about it as a concept here means we understand it to a point where it is real. In philosophy the idea of infinity is a universal, which means something that exists but not within the physical realms of our time space continuum. A good analogy for infinity would be the idea of triangularity. Anyone who understands what a triangle is can tell you it's a 3 sided figure with 180 degrees, but that doesn't mean you'll ever see a true triangle. In the material world there is no way for an object to be perfectly 3 sided, or have exactly 180 degrees, there's too much imperfection in all physical objects. That doesn't mean trianglularity is somehow "false" or that it doesn't exist. In the same way we will never be able to visualize true infinity, but our understanding of the concept makes it real.

 

[vVv Rapture]

You're all assuming that infinity is a certain point you're trying to reach, like counting numbers, but that's not it at all. Something that "goes to infinity" (which is just a phrase, by the way) is really just something that has the qualities of being infinite. Something that is infinite is something that, by concept does not end, but the concept itself creates the tangible status of something being infinite.

Take the side of a box for example. The side of the box is a line. The physical side of the box does end, thus could never be infinite. However, the line itself that the side creates is in fact infinite, though not physical. The line is still there, but only because the box creates it. And, by the qualities of the line, the line is infinite.

I mean, define tangible, really. Tangibility, AFAIK, is the ability for something to be perceived by any of our senses, at least one. If we touch it, its tangible. If we see it, its tangible.

However, there are a lot of things that humans cannot sense with our own senses that are tangible, like dark matter, which we know exists, but cannot actually perceive it...yet.

We're limited by our human qualities, quite frankly. It is very possible that something could or can perceive something of infinite status or the actual state of being in term of infinite. Just because we can't doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

One million billion trillion gazillion lightyears away, space could be just this huge meadow with unicorns and Hershey's Kisses as the thriving plantation and we'd never know because we can't perceive it. It could be possible by some anomaly or force or whatever, no matter how ridiculous it is, and we'd never know until we gain the ability to perceive it or perceive the instance in which we could prove that scenario is false.

 

[Deleted member]

Infinity on it's own doesn't mean much, since you need to define what kind of inifinity you are talking about.

examples:
Infinitely large [number, physical size etc]
Infinitely small [see above]
Infinitely long [time, length]
Infinitely often
Infinitely complex
etc.
(there is probably an infinite amount of adjectives that would fit )

now the question arises of any of those can be found in our universe (and thus be tangible) or is it merely a concept? (Yes it is mathematically rigorous but I'm keeping math out of this as mathematics in itself is something purely conceptual)

I doubt we can ever find a tangible example in our universe but if there was I think it would be in the form of a fractal (infinitely long line on a finitely large surface, to keep it very brief).

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Our very ability to attempt to understand the concept of infinity makes it tangible. Clearly one can never be given a physical representation of infinity but our ability to argue reasonably about it as a concept here means we understand it to a point where it is real. In philosophy the idea of infinity is a universal, which means something that exists but not within the physical realms of our time space continuum. A good analogy for infinity would be the idea of triangularity. Anyone who understands what a triangle is can tell you it's a 3 sided figure with 180 degrees, but that doesn't mean you'll ever see a true triangle. In the material world there is no way for an object to be perfectly 3 sided, or have exactly 180 degrees, there's too much imperfection in all physical objects. That doesn't mean trianglularity is somehow "false" or that it doesn't exist. In the same way we will never be able to visualize true infinity, but our understanding of the concept makes it real.

Just because something is real, doesn't mean it is tangible. Think of maths for example. It is real, but it is not something that you can expierence (please don't go further and try to debate this with me here, you can do so in VM's if you like ). An economy is also real, and has real impacts on our lives, but there is no economy that you can see, touch or move.

Also, I don't really understand you example of the triangle. I think you mean a triangle with all angles at exactly 60 degrees? Because I can agree with you on that, however, other triangles can easily exist, because no matter what shape the triangle is, the angles will always add up to 180.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

Infinity is not a number.

To say something is infinite is to make a comment on its QUALITIES, much like if I said it was red.

To be infinite is to be in a state where there is no number greater than you, no matter how large the number.

There's no numerical value or magnitude to the state of being infinite. It is simply an adjective used to describe a quality of a number.


The noun infinity is much the same. Infinity is just the value that no number can exceed, no matter how large the number. By it's definition, infinity is larger than every number. I emphasis number because infinity is not a number, it is a value.

 

[Deleted member]

Dourin, I think Love would have been a more fitting example. well said nonetheless

 

[Laem]

infinity is in fact, an 8 that tripped

god ****it, Sakurai.

 

[Landry]

Just because something is real, doesn't mean it is tangible. Think of maths for example. It is real, but it is not something that you can expierence (please don't go further and try to debate this with me here, you can do so in VM's if you like ). An economy is also real, and has real impacts on our lives, but there is no economy that you can see, touch or move.

Also, I don't really understand you example of the triangle. I think you mean a triangle with all angles at exactly 60 degrees? Because I can agree with you on that, however, other triangles can easily exist, because no matter what shape the triangle is, the angles will always add up to 180.

What I meant by the triangle analogy is that a perfect triangle cannot be created in nature, however it is possible to understand the concept of triangularity quite easily. Other than that I agree with you, so I think you may have misunderstood my original post. While infinity is not something you can see or touch it is still real. It exists as a philosophical universal.

 

[Infinitysmash]

This thread is really killing my namesearching.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Hahaha, oh geez, I'm sorry <_<!

That was unexpected lol.