infinites and stalling tactics - tournament legal?

[Corner-Trap]

How were rules against infinites enforced in Melee? Were you only allowed to perform an infinite for a set amount of time, or was the entire technique banned?

Infinites were allowed, like the wobble. But certain stages were banned, like the ones with walls and walk off ledges, because of Fox's waveshine. As you can see the rules aren't very consistent.

 

[Froth]

These new rules are starting to piss me off.

 

[CasMat]

Why not just have a referee or something? It doesn't have to be exactly defined so much as have a loose description if someone like a ref can come in and say "Quit stalling or you will be disqualified" when someone seems to be stalling. Though an exact rule may be hard to make, something general might be pretty easy to enforce as long as it's obvious when someone is stalling in general.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

K...heres what i think, if the infinite is EASY and is TOTALLY INESCAPABLE NO MATTER WHAT, the HOST of the tournament decides whether to ban or not, what %s its up to, or not to ban it at all. For the Dedede infinite chaingrabs on samus, mario, whatever, the host will decide to allow to a certain percent, since you can't erally ban a grab....or hell, PICK A DIFFERENT CHARACTER. There is NO TOTALLY ESCAPABLE INFINITE besides walled laser lock, but then again, there are no infinite walls that never leave, so there are NO real infinites (not sure about IC back throw thingy, i don't know if you can get out at high %s) Since there are NO infinites, you have to learn who can do what to whom, and which character you shouls use against it, if you main mario and you are playing against a dedede, use pikachu, zelda/shiek, or whoever else falls, so you can't get grabbed again. Seriously, it all boils down to the tournament host deciding to ban or not. So if you think that infinites are ban, ban them among your friends or your tournaments if you host one, don't ***** to everybody else "omg its so cheap and gay ban it!"
Infinite comboes are normally hard to pull off, and require a large amount of skill/timing to pull off. And as i said earlier, there are no 100% cannot get out of infinites.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Why not just have a referee or something? It doesn't have to be exactly defined so much as have a loose description if someone like a ref can come in and say "Quit stalling or you will be disqualified" when someone seems to be stalling. Though an exact rule may be hard to make, something general might be pretty easy to enforce as long as it's obvious when someone is stalling in general.

The only problem with this is somebody agreeing to be a referee, and for him to determine if its a stall, or if it jsut started, or if its the stupidity of the opponent who is letting it happen to him.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Can people please stop posting these ill conceived honor code systems? Y'all just simply don't understand how much this will not work in a tournament setting. Also to ESAM, the IC's have 4 completely inescapable infinites that work on every character and aren't stage dependent. But since the wooble was allowed in Melee which is much easier to do than any of the IC's new infinites, then the new ones should be allowed as well.

 

[kackamee]

Can people please stop posting these ill conceived honor code systems? Y'all just simply don't understand how much this will not work in a tournament setting. Also to ESAM, the IC's have 4 completely inescapable infinites that work on every character and aren't stage dependent. But since the wooble was allowed in Melee which is much easier to do than any of the IC's new infinites, then the new ones should be allowed as well.

4? I know the Ice Block lock, Fthrow, Bthrow. If your talking about the Dthrow it is escapable at higher %s

 

[Corner-Trap]

4? I know the Ice Block lock, Fthrow, Bthrow. If your talking about the Dthrow it is escapable at higher %s

I forgot what video I was watching but someone did a Dthrow infinite, and it wasn't like the regular chaingrab, they grabbed before the opponent even bounced off the ground much like how the Fthrow, and Bthrow infinite work.

 

[Chicobo329]

Why can't we just ban infinites altogether? Don't other traditional fighting game tournaments ban infinites anyway (Street Fighter, King of Fighters, etc.)? Why would an exception be given to Smash Bros. with regards to infinites? Sure, traditional fighters have the lifebars and an infinite leads to a KO. In Brawl, it's just agonizing stalling; it should be clear that it isn't fair to use.

If clear bans and criteria can be made with regards to infinites and chaingrabs and whatnot, by the way, it'd make for more legal stages in Brawl.

 

[kackamee]

I forgot what video I was watching but someone did a Dthrow infinite, and it wasn't like the regular chaingrab, they grabbed before the opponent even bounced off the ground much like how the Fthrow, and Bthrow infinite work.

Well in that case, Even I'm starting to think the Ice Climbers are unfair. I think they should just maybe take away 1 infinate and keep the others. But yeah since Wobbling was mostly legal I belive that they should be too. And about the stalling thing. Would you people consider running away stalling? Cause the only thing I would really call stalling is infinating above 230% and Home Stalling with Sonic

 

[kackamee]

Why can't we just ban infinites altogether? Don't other traditional fighting game tournaments ban infinites anyway (Street Fighter, King of Fighters, etc.)? Why would an exception be given to Smash Bros. with regards to infinites? Sure, traditional fighters have the lifebars and an infinite leads to a KO. In Brawl, it's just agonizing stalling; it should be clear that it isn't fair to use.

If clear bans and criteria can be made with regards to infinites and chaingrabs and whatnot, by the way, it'd make for more legal stages in Brawl.

Dedede would drop a tier, thats why.
No but seriously, If your smart enough not to get grabbed then you shouldn't worry. Banning a infinate is like baning a grab altogether

 

[Corner-Trap]

Why can't we just ban infinites altogether? Don't other traditional fighting game tournaments ban infinites anyway (Street Fighter, King of Fighters, etc.)? Why would an exception be given to Smash Bros. with regards to infinites? Sure, traditional fighters have the lifebars and an infinite leads to a KO. In Brawl, it's just agonizing stalling; it should be clear that it isn't fair to use.

If clear bans and criteria can be made with regards to infinites and chaingrabs and whatnot, by the way, it'd make for more legal stages in Brawl.

This is why I hate the fact that most smashers first fighting game is smash. If you knew anything about tournaments for other fighting games, or at the least read through this thread, you would have found out that infinites have been allowed in fighting game tournaments for years. In SFA3 players did CC infinites on the opponent till the time ran out and it was still allowed in tournaments. So if we want to go by your logic, then we should allow infinites since they've been allowed in fighting game tournaments for over a decade, and smash shouldn't be any exception.

 

[Chicobo329]

This is why I hate the fact that most smashers first fighting game is smash. If you knew anything about tournaments for other fighting games, or at the least read through this thread, you would have found out that infinites have been allowed in fighting game tournaments for years. In SFA3 players did CC infinites on the opponent till the time ran out and it was still allowed in tournaments. So if we want to go by your logic, then we should allow infinites since they've been allowed in fighting game tournaments for over a decade, and smash shouldn't be any exception.

The first fighting game I played was Street Fighter II, then King of Fighters '99. And chill, I didn't know. I read through most of this thread but I still had the thought that other fighting game tournaments would've banned infinites. I'm not a tournament person myself but I couldn't help but notice the general acceptance a lot of people had of infinites and yet how cheap and time consuming they are.

 

[Corner-Trap]

The first fighting game I played was Street Fighter II, then King of Fighters '99. And chill, I didn't know. I read through most of this thread but I still had the thought that other fighting game tournaments would've banned infinites. I'm not a tournament person myself but I couldn't help but notice the general acceptance a lot of people had of infinites and yet how cheap and time consuming they are.

I wasn't just referring to you in that post but most Smash players in general. I suggest some people to read the intermediate section of this guide.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

 

[Zink]

I wasn't just referring to you in that post but most Smash players in general. I suggest some people to read the intermediate section of this guide.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

it's funny cuz smashers use sirlin to shut down people hating on the general competitive scene anyway.

 

[Chicobo329]

It seems Sirlin's stuff has been passed around the boards lately. It's often like the one and only source one needs to back up just about any arguement. Good for Sirlin! :^D I knew from reading his stuff that he has it all sorted out and helps explain the finer points of getting serious in games.

But that's off topic anyway, I'm sorry for getting the thread off track.

 

[Viny]

for me i will ever use the laser lock....is totaly...not cool, is a glitch the other player can do nothing and it unfair because just some character can do it so is unfair

 

[2DLogic]

Can people please stop posting these ill conceived honor code systems? Y'all just simply don't understand how much this will not work in a tournament setting.

One of the main things I noticed when I first got into Smash is how common these little "honor codes" are.... The only thing I could ever thing that it came from is that the game is generally geared at a younger and more casual crowd, and that it never had a chance to grow a arcades where competition could really thrive.

Another thing I hear a lot is "cheap". "Cheap" is a very relative thing, in a lot of cases it's merely an excuse for someone who can't find a way around a certain tactic. Infinites, stalling, "camping" or turtling being very common victims of the term. In a tournament setting few things short of an "instantly kill your opponent" button or something that takes control away from the other player thus preventing the game from being played is actually "cheap". Smash Bros. is a competitive game, and in a tournament setting, where the ultimate goal is winning, people are going to use and abuse anything and everything they can in order to come out on top.

I apologize in advance if this leads to the topic getting a bit off topic, but I think these attitudes are partly why many people are calling for outright bans on things that are nowhere near game breaking enough to warrant a full ban. Addressing these attitudes could in turn help people to better understand why certain things are handled the way that they are, and could eventually lead to a better understanding of how to deal with using infinites to excessively stall out matches.

 

[DarkKyanite]

These new rules are starting to piss me off.

lol
pros never called someone noob just because when did they join the forum or how many posts they have
they call them noob because the way they talk.

i just read through all the posts in this thread that vgamerjoe posted
i have to say indeed he's a dumb noob who obviously never been to a tourny that runs by ppl who actually know what smash
but don't blame him
apes sometimes do smash tourny too, that's how good smash is.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Well, I mean they put them in the game. If they didn't want people to use them, why put them in the game? And, yes, I did say all stages should be legal.

So, stalling is illegal? Like, you can't just run around the level and dodge? But, usually tournaments are stock and not time. Maybe in your case.

Because Brawl was not intended for true competitive play as the community sees it. Why play on stages that give insane disadvantages to one player simply because they're there?

 

[lain]

Don't get grabbed.

And quit whining.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

This reminds me of Tichinde's stall, circa early 2006. For those who don't remember it, Tichinde was playing Fox vs. some other Fox, shinespiked his first life, and infinitely lasered the other guy's shine for the rest of the 8 minutes. This resulted in Tich with 4 lives, very high% and the other guy with 3. Now, did this stall become a staple of tournament level Melee play? No. Was it "gay"? Of course it was. People learned to get around it by not doing something completely dumb (using the shine to reflect every single laser).

Now, with my understanding of these infinites, they sound avoidable. Anyone afraid of laser lock could just tech and avoid stages with permanent walls, or play a character it doesn't work on. Anyone afraid of Dedede's chainthrow could play one of the numerous characters that he can't chainthrow at all, or if you insist on playing the matchup don't get grabbed.

 

[Mambo]

I would say only in time stock matches, put a limit like 20 or 30 seconds on those kind of techs. Most people won't ever do laser lock or chain grab longer than that, unless it's a stall.

 

[Olaf]

there was a precedent to the chain grab in another game, and more than a few tournaments just used this logic, and for the DDD chain grab, i feel it should be followed.

Limit the number of throws used in one chain.
i.e., DDD can only throw 3-5 times in one chain grab, before another attack must be used.
something like that could be implemented.

as for the other stalls? many are limited.
and infinites? case specific, such as damage, or time performed. falco LL could be used for around 10 seconds at a time, or maybe only 30% damage is allowed to be racked up.

these are just my ideas. dont accept them as a law....more of an opinion.

 

[Corner-Trap]

there was a precedent to the chain grab in another game, and more than a few tournaments just used this logic, and for the DDD chain grab, i feel it should be followed.

Limit the number of throws used in one chain.
i.e., DDD can only throw 3-5 times in one chain grab, before another attack must be used.
something like that could be implemented.

as for the other stalls? many are limited.
and infinites? case specific, such as damage, or time performed. falco LL could be used for around 10 seconds at a time, or maybe only 30% damage is allowed to be racked up.

these are just my ideas. dont accept them as a law....more of an opinion.

What precedent are you even talking about? Almost all major tournaments have allowed infinites and chaingrabs throughout Melee's competitive scene, without any of those BS additional rules you're trying to imply.

 

[Zink]

What precedent are you even talking about? Almost all major tournaments have allowed infinites and chaingrabs throughout Melee's competitive scene, without any of those BS additional rules you're trying to imply.

this is just like wobbling, or more old school jiggz having free rest after uthrow on fastallers.

Don't. Get. Grabbed.

It doesn't hurt that D3's chain works on like 10 characters max and walls are avoidable w/ counterpicking.

 

[Crizthakidd]

id draw the line about 30 seconds of lazerlock/infi chain grabs

 

[Ark22]

Before we continue this discussion about infinities, I think we need to clarify what is possible to ban in matches, what you can't ban, and exactly what each infinite does. There is no point suggesting a type of ban if it isn't feasible for a move that doesn't deserve it.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

From Sirlin, you can't place a ban on a technique if it is not enforceable. It just isn't enforceable to ban an entire grab, nor is is possible to referee every match to make sure people do not abuse the infinite too many times. Placing a time limit on stalls will just make the smash community ignore the rule or stall just 1 second under the banned limit. If you put a 2 minute stalling limit on moves, then people will stall for 1 minute 59 seconds.

You can however ban stages with permanent walls to limit infinities against walls.

I just went and checked. Only 3 brawl stages (that I have so far) have what might pass as permanent walls. They are New Pork City (banned because it is too big), the Ice Climbers level (probably banned because it is too slick), and Shadow Moses (probably already banned for something or other). Banning these 3 stages plus some of the old melee stages with walls would take care of most stall infinites.

The Ice Climbers Dthrow, Bthrow, and Fthrow are all inescapable, but the timing changes between each character and as damage increases. It is very unlikely that someone will be able to master using these throws to the point where they can use them infinitely to stall out a match. They are all harder than the wobble, and it is very easy for a person to mess up the infinite.

DDD's infinite chain grab only works against 4 out of 35 characters. That is very character specific, so it probably does not deserve a ban.

The ice climbers infinite block lock without walls seems incredibly hard, if not impossible, to keep up for more than a few repetitions. Most likely the person will mess up before they can stall with it too long.

So, just ban stages with walls. Also, unless someone can prove in tournaments that DDD's chaingrab, falco's laser lock, or the IC's combos break game play entirely, we should leave them as they are.

 

[takeurlife2]

the solution i see to this is stage-banning.

stages with a wall- like shadow moses(even though i like it)- will have to be removed due to certain infinite techniques. most of these, if not all of them, require a wall to do.

so, no wall = no infinites

 

[Froth]

the solution i see to this is stage-banning.

stages with a wall- like shadow moses(even though i like it)- will have to be removed due to certain infinite techniques. most of these, if not all of them, require a wall to do.

so, no wall = no infinites

Shouldn't be banned. My equation:

Don't get close to the wall = no infinites

 

[Olaf]

What precedent are you even talking about? Almost all major tournaments have allowed infinites and chaingrabs throughout Melee's competitive scene, without any of those BS additional rules you're trying to imply.

did i say melee? no. i said a different game. read before you spout rage at people.

before anyone gets angry / ********, it was cvs2. kim kaphwan had an infinite, but you could only do it for like 3 hits before you had to move on.
and with the damage scaling, it eventually became a stall, so it got rules added to it.
dont know if theyre still in practice, but who cares.

again. read.

 

[Dustero]

I lost in the smash wars tournament becuase of a DDD who used his infinite chain grab on the walls of Shadow Moses Island. Their rules said no stalling. In the end the refs said it wasn't stalling because he only did it until I was up to 150%, which took about 45 seconds, but he KOed me after that with an up smash. How stupid is that? Their rules said no stalling with a definition, saying that stalling was a tatic that makes either player unable to damage their opponent for an excessive ammount of time. Wouldn't you say that is stalling? The ref said that if he did it to around 500% it would have been stalling, but since he only did it to 150% it wasn't. I don't understand that because either way, he would be able to KO me in one hit.

Anyways, I am NEVER going to enter another smash wars tournament and I will not suggest it to anybody until they either ban Shadow Moses Island or ban using an infinite combo.

OBC hosts way better tournaments than wifi wars does.

 

[Froth]

I lost in the smash wars tournament becuase of a DDD who used his infinite chain grab on the walls of Shadow Moses Island. Their rules said no stalling. In the end the refs said it wasn't stalling because he only did it until I was up to 150%, which took about 45 seconds, but he KOed me after that with an up smash. How stupid is that? Their rules said no stalling with a definition, saying that stalling was a tatic that makes either player unable to damage their opponent for an excessive ammount of time. Wouldn't you say that is stalling? The ref said that if he did it to around 500% it would have been stalling, but since he only did it to 150% it wasn't. I don't understand that because either way, he would be able to KO me in one hit.

Anyways, I am NEVER going to enter another smash wars tournament and I will not suggest it to anybody until they either ban Shadow Moses Island or ban using an infinite combo.

OBC hosts way better tournaments than wifi wars does.

Tip: stay away from the wall?
Anyways, that's BS. Ref just thinks he can screw with you because he has athority. Who picks these refs?

 

[Ark22]

VGamerJoe thats fine. If you want to play games with walls, then go right ahead. However, this thread is about using stalling tactics in tournaments. Stages with walls were banned in melee because Fox's shine stall was considered too cheap, and Dustero's example reinforces that this is still the case in Brawl. Tournament organizers will probably ban stages with walls because it has effectively stopped stalling in the past. There are only 3 new stages in Brawl with permanent walls, so banning just those 3 should not be too much of a problem.

 

[Corner-Trap]

the solution i see to this is stage-banning.

stages with a wall- like shadow moses(even though i like it)- will have to be removed due to certain infinite techniques. most of these, if not all of them, require a wall to do.

so, no wall = no infinites

Ice Climbers don't need walls to perform infinites.

did i say melee? no. i said a different game. read before you spout rage at people.

before anyone gets angry / ********, it was cvs2. kim kaphwan had an infinite, but you could only do it for like 3 hits before you had to move on.
and with the damage scaling, it eventually became a stall, so it got rules added to it.
dont know if theyre still in practice, but who cares.

again. read.

What? I actually kept up with the CvS2 scene for quite a while. You must be talking about a soft ban, something that most players agree on but isn't exactly enforced.

I lost in the smash wars tournament becuase of a DDD who used his infinite chain grab on the walls of Shadow Moses Island. Their rules said no stalling. In the end the refs said it wasn't stalling because he only did it until I was up to 150%, which took about 45 seconds, but he KOed me after that with an up smash. How stupid is that? Their rules said no stalling with a definition, saying that stalling was a tatic that makes either player unable to damage their opponent for an excessive ammount of time. Wouldn't you say that is stalling? The ref said that if he did it to around 500% it would have been stalling, but since he only did it to 150% it wasn't. I don't understand that because either way, he would be able to KO me in one hit.

Anyways, I am NEVER going to enter another smash wars tournament and I will not suggest it to anybody until they either ban Shadow Moses Island or ban using an infinite combo.

OBC hosts way better tournaments than wifi wars does.

Welcome to the competitive scene, things like that have existed in tournaments for year. You either get used to it or don't compete.

And to all the people trying to set time limits, or percent limits for infinites, do y'all even realize how unfeasible that is? You can't count on some flimsy honor system, that would just lead to a lot of disputes. Even if we had refs to monitor such things, they won't know when players are going to do them, and it may take them a while to recognize that the infinite has started. So what is the ref going to do? Simply guess at what percent or time the infinite started and go from there? That could lead to bad judgments, and miss calls. Or what if the refs tell the players to stop and ask them when the infinite started and at what percent? Well then thats delaying the game and interrupting the players. Really though, infinites and stalling tactics have been in fighting games for years, why should Brawl suddenly be an exception to this rule?

 

[Froth]

VGamerJoe thats fine. If you want to play games with walls, then go right ahead. However, this thread is about using stalling tactics in tournaments. Stages with walls were banned in melee because Fox's shine stall was considered too cheap, and Dustero's example reinforces that this is still the case in Brawl. Tournament organizers will probably ban stages with walls because it has effectively stopped stalling in the past. There are only 3 new stages in Brawl with permanent walls, so banning just those 3 should not be too much of a problem.

And, if you would learn how to stay away from the wall, it could be avoided also.

 

[Zink]

I lost in the smash wars tournament becuase of a DDD who used his infinite chain grab on the walls of Shadow Moses Island. Their rules said no stalling. In the end the refs said it wasn't stalling because he only did it until I was up to 150%, which took about 45 seconds, but he KOed me after that with an up smash. How stupid is that? Their rules said no stalling with a definition, saying that stalling was a tatic that makes either player unable to damage their opponent for an excessive ammount of time. Wouldn't you say that is stalling? The ref said that if he did it to around 500% it would have been stalling, but since he only did it to 150% it wasn't. I don't understand that because either way, he would be able to KO me in one hit.

Anyways, I am NEVER going to enter another smash wars tournament and I will not suggest it to anybody until they either ban Shadow Moses Island or ban using an infinite combo.

OBC hosts way better tournaments than wifi wars does.

dustero guess what.

no johns.

 

[Dustero]

dustero guess what.

no johns.

I didn't stop the match. I continued to play it, even though it was impossible to win, I continued to play the match until the end.

 

[Icantlos]

And, if you would learn how to stay away from the wall, it could be avoided also.

The reason alot of infinites need a wall is because they move somewhat during the combo. So staying away from a wall doesn't really help.

My recommendation (and you can choose to take it or leave it) is to ban stages with walls (and possibly walk off stages.

 

[2DLogic]

I lost in the smash wars tournament becuase of a DDD who used his infinite chain grab on the walls of Shadow Moses Island. Their rules said no stalling. In the end the refs said it wasn't stalling because he only did it until I was up to 150%, which took about 45 seconds, but he KOed me after that with an up smash. How stupid is that? Their rules said no stalling with a definition, saying that stalling was a tatic that makes either player unable to damage their opponent for an excessive ammount of time. Wouldn't you say that is stalling? The ref said that if he did it to around 500% it would have been stalling, but since he only did it to 150% it wasn't. I don't understand that because either way, he would be able to KO me in one hit.

Then by that definition of "stalling" the judge's call was right. He continued the grab sequence to assure a single hit KO, not to run out the clock.

Like Corner-Trap, I, and several others have said, that's the tournament scene. The goal is to win using any means necessary within the given rule set, not give your opponent what he feels was a "fair chance" based on an arbitrary honor code.
Edit: What's up with the word filters?