infinites and stalling tactics - tournament legal?

[Atrion]

Infinites will be allowed in tournaments whether or not they stall, for the simple fact that they have always been allowed throughout the fighting game scenes history, end of story. This thread needs to die.

Maybe in the games you played but stalling has always been banned in smash. While infinites are perfectly fine to take a stock off, those same ones should not be allowed to stall. I guess a 300-400% region where you can get your auto kill should be as high as you are able to go.

 

[heroboy]

if the infinites are really as easy and broken as you say, then by all means, learn them and use them in tournaments. Whenever you win many tournaments using that technique, then we can look at banning it. If you try and fail, then I suppose it wasn't that broken, right? And if no one ever does it, then I suppose we don't need to look into banning it.

 

[WraithCube]

Sorry about the idiot comment. I tend to forget that insults on the internet are often taken in a less joking manner (still failing to understand why people take anything on the internet to seriously. Oh well, the internet is serious business). His comments, while lacking of a competitive nature, also tend ignore the logic of other objections and follows a simplistic mindset similar to "if you can't stop this from happening to you, you need to get better".

@ITP: While I agree that infinites above 300% have no purpose other than stalling as it becomes a one-hit K.O., that still leaves the problem of getting them up to 299% and stopping. This could spark conflicts over people arguing whether or not it was a stall or whether somebody was hit just 1 too many times at values close to 300%. I know as much as we all hate it, somebody would try to get maximize infinites rather than just to a killing percentage. I guess setting an unreasonably high percentage like 400 would work, but debate would follow over what is the "correct" percentage to consider something stalling vs. damaging.

 

[Yuna]

Infinites will be allowed in tournaments whether or not they stall, for the simple fact that they have always been allowed throughout the fighting game scenes history, end of story. This thread needs to die.

Not in Smash. Smash is different. An inifinite where you can stall a game out to win on time in normal games will only let you win one round. In Smash, you win the entire match.

It also depends on how easy it is to do said infinite. If said infinite/stalling tactic is really easy to do and works exceptionally well (against pretty much all characters) and cannot be countered, then you have to ban it.

 

[Froth]

VgamerJoe is not an idiot, he's just slow and a bit lacking in the competetive mindset, but you shouldn't put tags on him.

All the tourneys I've been to haven't used time limits. Why would time limits just suddenly come into play?

 

[Corner-Trap]

All the tourneys I've been to haven't used time limits. Why would time limits just suddenly come into play?

......what tourneys are you talking about?

 

[Waddle]

I play as DDD and I think his infinite should be banned, it's pretty rigged :_).

 

[game_tip]

Shouldn't be allowed for 30 seconds +

 

[Veil2222]

I actually run a tourney at Murray college, and we found a system that punishes stalls/infinites/camping all together. We run the tournaments on 5 stock 5 min matches, nothing revolutionary, but to back it up we have a ranking system for people in our tourney. 1 rank point = 1 kill, so the person who will rank top in the tourney bracket is the person who gets the most kills (all 5 every match). That's not easy to do with 5 stock 5 min, you've gotta be playing a person you can flat out beat to get to 5 kills in the 5 mins, it usually end up being 3-4 kills in a normal match. So campers/stallers/infinite abusers and the like may win the bracket, but in the group, they're going to be ranked as low as some of the noobs/less skilled people.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Shouldn't be allowed for 30 seconds +

Please, PLEASE, do not post unless you are familiar with tournament mechanics.

 

[Froth]

......what tourneys are you talking about?

7 or 8 melee tourneys and 2 brawl. Not one used a time limit.

 

[Corigames]

I actually run a tourney at Murray college, and we found a system that punishes stalls/infinites/camping all together. We run the tournaments on 5 stock 5 min matches, nothing revolutionary, but to back it up we have a ranking system for people in our tourney. 1 rank point = 1 kill, so the person who will rank top in the tourney bracket is the person who gets the most kills (all 5 every match). That's not easy to do with 5 stock 5 min, you've gotta be playing a person you can flat out beat to get to 5 kills in the 5 mins, it usually end up being 3-4 kills in a normal match. So campers/stallers/infinite abusers and the like may win the bracket, but in the group, they're going to be ranked as low as some of the noobs/less skilled people.

This is not only dumb (Because it's near impossible to be so good that you take off one stock per minute consistantly) because of the 5/5 idea, but because it SUPPORTS camping. If a person does camp, they will get a kill or two, but then spend the rest of the (shorter than normal 7-8min.) fight running away. this will inhibit the person fighting them to get a kill. Not only will the person camping get a low score, but also the opponent. this may be ok if you only have one camper in a tournament, but it becomes a problem when their numbers multiply, especially considering it is already a viable tactic in a normal tournament.

More people will have to face more campers. Their score will be very low because they had to face campers, even if they tried their hardest. Meaning, it all comes down to your luck in matchups. the campers may never win, but they will definitely cause people to lose even if they got more kills. It's unfair, mainly because you are trying to hinder a way of fighting, and causing people who aren't even using the tactic to be hurt by it.

Just stick to basic tournament rules. If infinites become such a problem that one person always wins, then I would say ban it. Have a judge watch matches where a player CAN do an infinite or stall. When they have expended the number of times or time allotted, the judge can call it and request the person end that chain. If they don't comply in the following seconds, they forefit the match. Simple and effective.

 

[I.T.P]

This is not only dumb (Because it's near impossible to be so good that you take off one stock per minute consistantly) because of the 5/5 idea, but because it SUPPORTS camping. If a person does camp, they will get a kill or two, but then spend the rest of the (shorter than normal 7-8min.) fight running away. this will inhibit the person fighting them to get a kill. Not only will the person camping get a low score, but also the opponent. this may be ok if you only have one camper in a tournament, but it becomes a problem when their numbers multiply, especially considering it is already a viable tactic in a normal tournament.

More people will have to face more campers. Their score will be very low because they had to face campers, even if they tried their hardest. Meaning, it all comes down to your luck in matchups. the campers may never win, but they will definitely cause people to lose even if they got more kills. It's unfair, mainly because you are trying to hinder a way of fighting, and causing people who aren't even using the tactic to be hurt by it.

Just stick to basic tournament rules. If infinites become such a problem that one person always wins, then I would say ban it. Have a judge watch matches where a player CAN do an infinite or stall. When they have expended the number of times or time allotted, the judge can call it and request the person end that chain. If they don't comply in the following seconds, they forefit the match. Simple and effective.

unfourtanetly, that solution only works for small scale tournaments.

once you have 3+ TVs, you'll have a serious problem in assigning a judge to one each and everytime a match up that has an infinite occurs. thus it is better to prevent the infinite or allow it, than actually assigning judges.

I agree with you on that guy's system though, one of the weirdest I've heard about, disallowing a playstyle is obviously wrong.

 

[Corigames]

Other players can be judges, as long as you don't have someone particularly hated playing

 

[I.T.P]

Other players can be judges, as long as you don't have someone particularly hated playing

but then, you'll have the issue that people will complain about being selected to judge, cause they'd rather play their handheld console\play friendlies instead

 

[Corigames]

If the tournament is as big as you say then, most likely, friendlies will be out and will, instead, be used to get more tournament games over with. Now, I know it is very difficult to trust the integrity of players, so I'm with you on the lack of population for judges, especially during larger events, but it is better than having people complain about lack of tactics or over use of tactics.

 

[I.T.P]

If the tournament is as big as you say then, most likely, friendlies will be out and will, instead, be used to get more tournament games over with. Now, I know it is very difficult to trust the integrity of players, so I'm with you on the lack of population for judges, especially during larger events, but it is better than having people complain about lack of tactics or over use of tactics.

well, if it's not banned, then they have no reason to complain against it now do they?

PTW FTW

 

[heroboy]

Not in Smash. Smash is different. An inifinite where you can stall a game out to win on time in normal games will only let you win one round. In Smash, you win the entire match.

It also depends on how easy it is to do said infinite. If said infinite/stalling tactic is really easy to do and works exceptionally well (against pretty much all characters) and cannot be countered, then you have to ban it.

Except don't matches usually have a best out of 3? Isn't that the EXACT same setup a street fighter match has?


And I as I said, if the infinite/stalling tactic is so good and easy to do with no counters, then when someone finds it, they'll win a tournament with it. Not only that, they should win many tournaments with it, or at least someone who could do it better. The tactic itself should dominate play. Then, we can ban it. Until this happens, what need do we have to ban anything?

As I stated before, until one does the above mentioned. then its undiscovered, unused, or isn't as broken as everyone thought. In all of these cases, why is there a need for a ban?

7 or 8 melee tourneys and 2 brawl. Not one used a time limit.

And you would say how many tourneys did include time limits?

 

[Trozz]

Stalling tactics are hard to stop.
That's why only very neutral maps are played.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Stalling tactics are hard to stop.
That's why only very neutral maps are played.

As opposed to semi neutral???

Or a little neutral???

 

[Lovage 805]

Things have changed quite a bit since Melee. The only two true "infinites" were wobbles and Fox Shine on a wall. Unlike the Infinites we see in Brawl, these actually required some modicum of skill, also, in the case of Fox Shineinfinite, you needed a wall. Wall's only existed in 2/4 forms of Pkmn Snadium (some tournaments had Onett and Castle as a CP, I never experienced that, though. Not to mention it was usually pretty hard to get a Marth into a corner on Fire form of Pkmn Stadium without unplugging his controller. Wobbles was something else entirely, could be done on any character, at most percents, anywhere on the map, and against a good player, a grab meant your stock(watch MLG from 06-07) so many tournaments started to ban Wobbles (like the CPP tourny this satuday)

In Brawl however, if a Dedede grabs you on Eldin, you're stock is gone, if a DK grabs you anywhere NEAR a wall, your stock is gone(cargo dthrow infinite) There are a LOT more infinites in Brawl, and so far all of them are stupid easy to execute. So now we're in a very tricky situation because so many characters have infinites or near infinites, who can be the judge of what is fair and what is banned.

p.s. brawl sucks lawl

 

[Twin Dreams]

Things have changed quite a bit since Melee. The only two true "infinites" were wobbles and Fox Shine on a wall. Unlike the Infinites we see in Brawl, these actually required some modicum of skill, also, in the case of Fox Shineinfinite, you needed a wall. Wall's only existed in 2/4 forms of Pkmn Snadium (some tournaments had Onett and Castle as a CP, I never experienced that, though. Not to mention it was usually pretty hard to get a Marth into a corner on Fire form of Pkmn Stadium without unplugging his controller. Wobbles was something else entirely, could be done on any character, at most percents, anywhere on the map, and against a good player, a grab meant your stock(watch MLG from 06-07) so many tournaments started to ban Wobbles (like the CPP tourny this satuday)

In Brawl however, if a Dedede grabs you on Eldin, you're stock is gone, if a DK grabs you anywhere NEAR a wall, your stock is gone(cargo dthrow infinite) There are a LOT more infinites in Brawl, and so far all of them are stupid easy to execute. So now we're in a very tricky situation because so many characters have infinites or near infinites, who can be the judge of what is fair and what is banned.

p.s. brawl sucks lawl

If the infinites are that good, play with those characters and win.

If you don't win, we can see that they really weren't that good.




It's funny, because this topic was about a hypothetical situation not present in brawl yet. Corner-Trap, Myself, and ITP have discussed it. For some reason, you people keep posting your opinions about in game infinites that are discovered already. Nothing in Brawl can really be banned until someone dominates a tournament with it. So, please, everyone, stfu with your opinions unless your posting about the implementation of restrictions on infinites long enough to be considered a stall, which is what the topic is about.



To separate it from the rest of the text....




Back on Topic:



Discuss the implementation of restrictions on infinites used as stalls.


Note: Please don't post if you aren't familiar with tournament rule standards, fighting genre meta-game, and tournament mechanics.


If you ABSOLUTELY have to post, please read this first.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/