Increasing Sonic's Survival

[MarKO X]

Hey Sonic mains... check this video out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qAVsFk9Eug

Here's the thread that goes with it:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522&page=5

Basically, what's going on and being discussed is using aerials to slow down knockback momentum in order to survive. The general idea is that if you use your character's fastest aerial, it will help you survive. It also proves that using the fastest aerial in your character's arsenal is better than doing the airdodge > jump thing that everyone loves doing.

So the question is this: which one of Sonic's aerials is the fastest and would help him stay alive longer? According to darkNES's guide, uair comes out the fastest, but I don't know if that would mean it's the fastest aerial per se or if it just comes out the fastest, or even if coming out the fastest is what we need. I was hoping that someone with more expertise and patience could test this out and see what kind of results we get. From the li'l bit of testing I've done with this, it's either uair or fair, as both aerials allow me to slow down a little bit and get off true momentum changing attacks, like the Spin Dash/Charge and the Homing Attack.

But the question is which one is the fastest (i.e. has fewer frames, I guess?)?

 

[Browny]

fair and uair are tied for fastest aerial (nair is 1 frame slower than both), but i dont see how this affects it. i mean, thats just when the hitbox comes out, how could that affect anything?

anyway i always spam dair + DI to try and survive longer... work well enough :/

 

[darkNES386]

It is extremely small, but it helps. I use fair. It's like recovering with the fair after a spring. It's just that little pinch extra... which is sometimes all you need.

Puffball64 did enough testing to be satisfied with it and we were actually discussing it last night. Kind of ironic that this thread then popped up today.

I would think fair would make the most sense but honestly.... I'm still hesitant about this. Notice that when Sonic does a spring > fair before the height of the spring he goes further. However, if you spring yourself up then use a fair as you're falling, it doesn't increase the distance at all. So the question becomes: What timing if any is really making Sonic go further if he does an aerial right away when knocked off stage?

Edit - What he said:

No you wouldn't. Your momentum does not immediately stop once you execute your aerial, unless it's a move that actually moves you in a certain direction, like a Side B (Dairs, not so much) or you're Lucario.

Airdodging does do something... if you 2nd jump immediately afterwards.

The question now becomes, which aerials if any do this? Funny as it may sound... Sonic's spring could be the fastest, however it would be kind of silly to spring yourself when you get knocked waaaaay off stage. It would at least make for an interesting recovery.

From personal experience, whenver I try a spin dash off stage from really hard knockback, sometimes I find myself actually dieing unexpectedly while the spin charge is starting up. Anyone else have this experience?

 

[Greenstreet]

Because your moving back dnes? Is that what your referring to?

Fair gives forward momentum and will help (if only slightly) with recoveries.
May not be much but it could save your stock.

 

[darkNES386]

Because your moving back dnes? Is that what your referring to?

Fair gives forward momentum and will help (if only slightly) with recoveries.
May not be much but it could save your stock.

Jump in the air and perform a fair with the c-stick. Tell me if sonic gets at momentum forward.

 

[Tenki]

The spring thing is just because his up-B rising state has really slow horizontal control, and any aerial (not just f-air - remember, airdodging works too), when used ASAP, will cancel it early so you can start controlling your float quicker. same thing if you do a charge-jump (aerial or grounded) - if you use an aerial right away, you can start moving sideways earlier cause it takes you out of the rising state or whatever earlier.


F-air is the fastest aerial (overall time), I'm pretty sure.

But, F-air itself doesn't have any momentum or movement built in to it. There's a moment where it extends Sonic's attack box forward, but it doesn't actually move you forward. B-air, however... does.

 

[darkNES386]

Spring makes sense to me now, you're making a better angle of trajectory. So since bair is situational (have to be knocked backwards), is dair an option for say when knocked high?: DI right/left and dair when possible when hit up? What would you do for sideways?

 

[Browny]

ignore this... springing doesnt do anything

 

[Tenki]

Spring makes sense to me now, you're making a better angle of trajectory. So since bair is situational (have to be knocked backwards), is dair an option for say when knocked high?: DI right/left and dair when possible when hit up? What would you do for sideways?

No. Just like the other stall-then-falls when done out of hitstun, you'll continue on in the trajectory that you were sent in the first place, and, if you happen to have it out during the time that you should start falling (like, the rising>falling motion), you'll just float in the air.

I've died off the top after using double jump>D-air out of hitstun before.

I've also died off the sides while doing side-B (tap), but I'm not sure if that was because it was travelling through the same trajectory as the one my opponent sent me in or if it was because I slid off the edge using side-B's backwards movement

I think the point of the video is to use your quickest aerial to get out of 'hitstun state' and regain float control ASAP, so regardless of which way you're flying, F-air once or twice and then try to get back on stage.

 

[darkNES386]

Springing doesn't work. As Tenki said ( and I just fiddled with myself): The horizontal control of the spring is horrible, you'll go flying vertical and sideways to your death.

Post at same time?! So what about forward B then to help kill momentum?

 

[IceDX]

Thats just Smash DI or at least thats what me and mt crew call it.... it ist new at all..

 

[darkNES386]

Thats just Smash DI or at least thats what me and mt crew call it.... it ist new at all..

Smash DI
Smash DI (aka SDI) is something significantly different from normal DI. During hitlag (if you're being hit), if you input one of the 8 most cardinal directions on the control stick, you will get an instantaneous change in position in the direction you input. This is good for escaping multiple hit attacks such as MK's neutral/ Side B attacks, fox's uair, many of Lucas' attacks, etc... Note: In order to SDI with the C-stick (set to smash/ special), you must return the C-stick to center before any additional SDI inputs will register, unlike the ability of the control stick to SDI while rolling it back and forth. from: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4158733

 

[Tenki]

From personal experience, whenver I try a spin dash off stage from really hard knockback, sometimes I find myself actually dieing unexpectedly while the spin charge is starting up. Anyone else have this experience?

just noticed this edit:

Yes, it happens to me.

btw, Yuna is wrong.

 

[Espy Rose]

I've also died off the sides while doing side-B (tap), but I'm not sure if that was because it was travelling through the same trajectory as the one my opponent sent me in or if it was because I slid off the edge using side-B's backwards movement.

That's been what I believe to happen when you try to stop or kill the momentum with side-B.

Fair as you are knocked back slows down your momentum, but does not move you toward the level. The other aerials (not sure about dair) do the same I believe, but fair is the fastest aerial for Sonic, so it's best to use that one.

That, and because fair is faster than airdodge+jump.

 

[ROOOOY!]

( and I just fiddled with myself)

Pahahahaha.
Quoting out of context is fun.
Also, isn't there only like two aerials that change Sonic's momentum? Those being bair and dair. Bair feels kinda...slow to me. Dair seems to work actually, just mash it lots.

 

[Greenstreet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI
at 3.00 minutes?

 

[Tenki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI
at 3.00 minutes?

eh, any aerial works, but before, since all we did was hold sideways and hit A, it was usually F-air and B-air.

Sonic Orochi's guide was alot more recent, and he demonstrates it more clearly, reaching the same distance with N-air, F-air, B-air, and U-air. Airdodge does the same for up-B as the other aerials.

Pahahahaha.
Quoting out of context is fun.
Also, isn't there only like two aerials that change Sonic's momentum? Those being bair and dair. Bair feels kinda...slow to me. Dair seems to work actually, just mash it lots.

Earlier, I tested B-air, and I found this:

Basically, B-air 'wobbles' forward and backwards.

If you full hop and C-stick back (so the whole aerial completes itself), you'll land in the same place.

If you fastfall B-air and land before it comes out, you'll land a little bit forward.
If you fastfall B-air and land as it's coming out, you'll land a little bit backwards.


Sorry for the confusion ;p

 

[Greenstreet]

ah thanks for clearing that up tenki.
much appreciated

 

[da K.I.D.]

i read most of that thread

bascially when you get sent flying, while you are in hit stun you cant really affect your airial movement ( excepr for DI) but you can do an airial quickly and since airials jumping, and dodging end the hitstun prematurely, they all allow you to regain airial movement of your character sooner, but since you cant really DI during an airdodge the same way you can when you do an attack, and also because airials proly take affect before aridodges do, they are more useful for regaining your own manual airial movement

Watch forte closely in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFQCliq1qo he does up airs when he gets knocked back for this particular reason

 

[da K.I.D.]

so basically use your shortest startup up time airial in addition to DI and SDI
i suggest f air because you can forward air and DI at the same time usually

 

[darkNES386]

so basically use your shortest startup up time airial in addition to DI and SDI
i suggest f air because you can forward air and DI at the same time usually

But if you're being knocked sidways don't you want to be DIing DOWN? So I would say either a fair or uair (on the c-stick) while holding down on the joystick... no?

 

[Greenstreet]

i was just about to post that d-ness. seems logical to me.

 

[darkNES386]

i was just about to post that d-ness. seems logical to me.

=)

10DISonics

 

[Tenki]

But if you're being knocked sidways don't you want to be DIing DOWN? So I would say either a fair or uair (on the c-stick) while holding down on the joystick... no?

Only on some (very horizontal-sending) aerials.

It sucks to be DI'ing down when you can't actually make the trajectory go downwards, cause then not only are you unable to tech the floor, but you make it easier to die :[

 

[darkNES386]

I guess I'm getting confused then by all the different DI tips that people are providing.

 

[TwinkleToes]

just noticed this edit:

Yes, it happens to me.

btw, Yuna is wrong.

I usually assume this is true on anything new/undiscovered.