In theory: ganon's fair a useless move?

[Klowne]

Yo, i've recently stumbled upon a problem, and decided to post about it before my mind is blown and i'm thrust into a whirlpool of mental chaos.

Problem: I don't see how a character with a good dashdance, played by someone with good reflexes, is capable of being hit by ganondorf's fair in open space, EVER. Yet, supposedly SHFFL'd fairs with ganondorf is an awesome approach. ?_?

I'm talking about using the Fair in such a way so that you can immediately jab afterwords so you can't be shield grabbed (in other words, delaying the airial within the SHFFL [the guys in melee discussion wouldn't let me name it]). Supposedly, you can use this as a nice, generally safe approach, right?

Well i just don't see how it would work against, say, a marth or fox with good reflexes. It's not like you can change course in mid-air, so there's really no downside for the fox/marth to do a quick dash backwards to avoid anything you might be able to do in that position. Sure, you see it work all the time in videos: ganons chaining a bajilion fairs on marths that conveniantly dash into it somehow, but it still confuses me and i'm about to go crazy because -IN THEORY- using fairs as an approach would NEVER EVER work against a marth with reasonably good reflexes! Blaaarrrgah, someone please explain it to me in theorycraft before my brain explodes and i'm forced to quit ganondorf forever



TL;DR: Dash dancing > SHFFL'd fairs, yet everyone says that SHFFL'd fairs are a good approach. What am i missing?

 

[DippnDots]

Even if you whiff you can immediately jab after a shuffled fair.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Approaching with well-shuffled fairs creates a sort of wall that isn't all that easy to get around.

Of course, theoretically, fair is very evadeable, but, then again, so are pretty much nearly all the other moves in the game.

The point of a competitive fighting game is that people are not perfect all the time. If you are playing against a competent opponent, you can't necessarily force your will upon him and expect victory. Instead, you need to be able to capitalize on his mistakes.
People make mistakes, be it spacing, timing, whatever. And when they do, you nail them with a fair.
Why you use it as a approach... is because most people can't punish you effectively for it. It is relatively safe for ganon to do. However, if you face someone who can punish you effectively for approaching with fair all the time, then that's when you change up your approaches.

When you play against people, realize they are imperfect beings. Find the weakness and exploit it.

 

[Klowne]

Even if you whiff you can immediately jab after a shuffled fair.

Yes, that makes it counter shielding and spot dodging, but there still doesn't seem to be a point in doing it if it's always going to miss and you end up defensively jabbing.

 

[Klowne]

Approaching with well-shuffled fairs creates a sort of wall that isn't all that easy to get around.

Of course, theoretically, fair is very evadeable, but, then again, so are pretty much nearly all the other moves in the game.

The point of a competitive fighting game is that people are not perfect all the time. If you are playing against a competent opponent, you can't necessarily force your will upon him and expect victory. Instead, you need to be able to capitalize on his mistakes.
People make mistakes, be it spacing, timing, whatever. And when they do, you nail them with a fair.
Why you use it as a approach... is because most people can't punish you effectively for it. It is relatively safe for ganon to do. However, if you face someone who can punish you effectively for approaching with fair all the time, then that's when you change up your approaches.

When you play against people, realize they are imperfect beings. Find the weakness and exploit it.

What you said is all true, but i personally think that if you're good enough at dash dancing, you won't make enough mistakes to warrent me risking SHFFL'd fairs on you. Sure, i've got the jab to back me up, but the basis of it hitting or not is not mindgames or such, but you making a technical mistake and improperly timing the punish, which is a factor you really shouldn't base your approach on against a good opponent.


Also, i'd like to state that i got nuthin on retreating fairs. Those are still cool.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Its called mixing things up.

Okay you miss the f-air and they get jabbed..well no damage on you and they just took abit, so no point in complaining?

in theory, marth could always keep you at the tip of his sword and never have bad enough spacing to be attacked..but its just theory..alot of ganon's approaches don't look all that effective considering its not as fast as fox/marth/falco and etc but its not bad.

only time I'd call ganon's fair a somewhat useless move if you happened to be playing PAL version of the game...if you do, and you main ganon..I feel very sorry for you.

 

[Klowne]

Its called mixing things up.

Okay you miss the f-air and they get jabbed..well no damage on you and they just took abit, so no point in complaining?

in theory, marth could always keep you at the tip of his sword and never have bad enough spacing to be attacked..but its just theory..alot of ganon's approaches don't look all that effective considering its not as fast as fox/marth/falco and etc but its not bad.

only time I'd call ganon's fair a somewhat useless move if you happened to be playing PAL version of the game...if you do, and you main ganon..I feel very sorry for you.

Like i said, the jab will only hit if the opponent screws up his timing, which isn't a good gamble. Even if you 'mix things up', if would be completely pointless to do a SHFFL'd Fair if we're on the basis that it can be dodged by reflex alone.

As for marth: in theory, godly spacing wouldn't actually stop him from being attacked, it would just make punishing him from the shield/spot dodge harder. You would still be able to find openings/provoke him into missed attacks/ectect

EDIT: also, the name of this thread is totally misleading. Sorry about that, the fair obviously has other more apparent uses like tech chasing or retreating with. My beef is with the SHFFL'd Fair > jab approach only.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Unless you have a projectile, godly spacing would basicly be unstoppable due to how hard it would be to counterattack him even if he missed.

Shuffled f-air to jab is one approach, thats like picking ANY one character's approach and aruging about it, theres no point, as the characters have different approaches to choose from, thats what I meant by mixing things up. If the player using ganon purely shuffled f-airs as an approach, he shouldn't be playing ganon.

 

[Klowne]

Unless you have a projectile, godly spacing would basicly be unstoppable due to how hard it would be to counterattack him even if he missed.

Shuffled f-air to jab is one approach, thats like picking ANY one character's approach and aruging about it, theres no point, as the characters have different approaches to choose from, thats what I meant by mixing things up. If the player using ganon purely shuffled f-airs as an approach, he shouldn't be playing ganon.

@first comment: That's just wrong. Perfect spacing means absolutely nothing if you miss. It seems like what you're trying to say is that marth cannot be punished because his sword is long, even when he's not using it.

@second comment: Okay, i'll argue for other approaches then. I'll choose marth for the moveset because we're both more familliar with him.

JC grabs: Use them when you think you can predict where your opponent is going to be, since they come out too fast to be dodged on reflex. Also great for punishing because of their speed. Moderately punishable. Certainly useful in theory.

SHFFL'd fairs, not delayed: Use them if you can predict where your opponent is going to be, if you think he's going to attack at the same time and you can outrange/outprioritize him, or for punishing. Can also be used against shields if you space properly. Heavily punishable. Still useful in theory, as long as you can make accurate guesses of your opponent's actions.

SHFFL'd fairs, with the attack delayed so you can pressure shields and such: Use them while retreating so you can lay down some crazy punishment if you guessed correctly. Also great for tech chasing. However... as long as your opponent has good reflexes, i can think of no reason you would use them to approach, EVEN IF YOU KNEW EXACTLY WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS GOING TO DO. They'd just dash away because it's too danm slow, just like with ganondorf's. So, in the world of theorycraft, this technique cannot be applied as an approach.


What i'm saying is, "delayed SHFFLs" are useless as an approach in theory because, while they may not be easilly punishable, they still have no chance of hitting anyone. Other approaches are certainly viable, you just have to apply mindgames and use them properly, making correct guesses at what action your opponent is going to take before you use them. The "delayed SHFFL", however, cannot be used as an approach because even if you have a good idea of what your opponent is about to do when you use it, he can just move out of the way by reflex.

 

[mood4food77]

delayed shffls aren't useless, it's called mindgames, if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, the opponent will most likely catch on

delayed shffls with marth is good, because marth is fast, he can carry his momentum in the air, a lot better than most characters can, most characters will try to grab you/sheild you, if they attempt to grab you, you will win that battle because of the speed of his fair, if they sheild, you can go right into a grab and continue to **** from there

it's mindgames son

ganon's fair has a HUGE hitbox, it's from hit waist all the way to a little after his knuckle, it also hits above and below him

the attack itself is fast, the time going to the attack is moderate

 

[Frozenserpent]

What i'm saying is, "delayed SHFFLs" are useless as an approach in theory because, while they may not be easilly punishable, they still have no chance of hitting anyone. Other approaches are certainly viable, you just have to apply mindgames and use them properly, making correct guesses at what action your opponent is going to take before you use them. The "delayed SHFFL", however, cannot be used as an approach because even if you have a good idea of what your opponent is about to do when you use it, he can just move out of the way by reflex.

Wait a minute, how would the opponent know that you are going to do a fair? You can always mix it up and do an empty short hop into a waveland->grab/tilt. Then they would be spacing wrong. And if they retreat when you do an empty short hop, they can't counterattack you, because you are fully prepared for a counterattack.

And while you might not always actually hit them when you approach, so long as you don't get hit, it might still be beneficial to use that approach. It's still useful to use appraoches to set yourself into a better position relative to them. For shuffled fairs, even if you don't hit them, you are putting pressure on them and driving them into a corner.

I mean, look at a falco. Why pillar at all? If you pillar someone (who is using a char that is pillarable), you are practically guaranteed to not get a hit in, as nearly everyone will just cstick roll out of it. You can hope that they mess up on timing with a grab/jump or roll, and you can get a combo, but that's only if your opponent messes up. So why pillar? The reason is that you are applying pressure on their sheidl, reducing the number of their options, while still remaining relatively safe, and because of their limited number of options (c-stick roll out), you have a better chance of predicting their actions, allowing you to punish them that much easier. So a falco laser chases my roll and punishes. .

 

[Linguini]

Well Klowne, you see if a Ganon player is soley relying his whole game on one, two or even three strategies, thats not the way to play ganon well. One of the most important aspects of doing well in a high level of play with ganon is to always switch it up and have your options open. The player CHOOSES to fair to jab approach at all time it's not forced so I dont see your point. Instead of using this one method of fairing theres many other ways to mindgame it(full jumps double jump, double fairs) not to mention a slew of other essential attacks ganon has in his arsenal.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I'm not going to agrue my points anymore as everyone is basicly saying the same thing and linguini just stated what everyone was getting at.

If you say perfect spacing means nothing if you miss, you obviously haven't been fighting marths that can l cancel.

 

[Klowne]

Well Klowne, you see if a Ganon player is soley relying his whole game on one, two or even three strategies, thats not the way to play ganon well. One of the most important aspects of doing well in a high level of play with ganon is to always switch it up and have your options open. The CHOOSES to fair to jab approach at all time it's not forced so I dont see your point. Instead of using this one method of fairing theres many other ways to mindgame it(full jumps double jump, double fairs) not so metion a slew of other essential attacks ganon has in his arsenal.

Thanks linguini, but i didn't really make this thread for self-improvement, it's more of a nitpicking thing. I realize that you have to mix up your approaches, and of course i don't spam SHFFL'd fairs as my ganondorf playstyle. I just can't get it out of the back of my mind that the SHFFL'd fair approach isn't as good as people make it out to be.

Wait a minute, how would the opponent know that you are going to do a fair? You can always mix it up and do an empty short hop into a waveland->grab/tilt. Then they would be spacing wrong. And if they retreat when you do an empty short hop, they can't counterattack you, because you are fully prepared for a counterattack.

Hm, up until now i have been basically arguing that there is no disadvantage to dashing backwards at the moment ganondorf jumps towards you. But now that you bring up empty short hops and wavelanding, there may be some flaws in my argument. I'll have to think about this some more.

EDITed for bluedeath's response:

If you say perfect spacing means nothing if you miss, you obviously haven't been fighting marths that can l cancel.

Lol, that's funny. So whats the difference between a missed fair, and a missed fair with good spacing? If you miss it, then it's a given that the distance between you and your opponent after the miss is going to be the length of the attack + however much you missed by, regardless of how good your spacing is (unless you consider missing by a huge margin "good spacing"). As long as the person you missed against can dash forward a little bit into a grab (or whatever), you'll be punished for missing.

And all linguini said was pretty much not to spam fairs. Like i said before, "mixing it up" doesn't magically take away your opponents ability to react to slow attacks. By that logic, "mixing it up" and using "mindgames, son" would allow you to approach with silly attacks like ganondorf's B move.

 

[mood4food77]

no, but mixing up your approaches

well, technically, you could approach with ganon's warlock punch...but you'd most likely get *****, i mean, you must have some extreme luck to hit with that move

the fact with ganon's fair, if you hit once, you can hit with it 3 times in a row most of the time cause of it's massive reach

a useless move is.....luigi's taunt, as an attack

 

[knightpraetor]

basically everything frozen serpent said...also pretty much everything in this game is an issue of mixup games and prediction...approaches and defenses to approaches are not flawless..the greatest thing about this game in my opinion is that most of the time if you know what your opponent is going to do next..it's almost guaranteed you can punish them..hell sometimes that's true even in combos..air dodge to punish..even though in most situations that same air dodge would have gotten you hit..

just read your opponent better...if you know they are always going to dash back then you should just work on pressuring them to a side of a stage and keeping the attack pressure on...or fake them out into thinking you are aiming for them when you are really aiming to waveland to grab behind their current position or something..

anyways about what bluedeath said..i have to agree...marth's perfectly spaced aerials even if they miss..are not punishable in themselves...however, if you can call the next move you can usually punish..usually they will try to tilt or dash away..if you call either you can punish..though some characters are more effective at punishing than others...

trying to punish marth with bowser sucks...most times the best i can do is wavedash inwards to close the space after they waste a tilt that i shield...and then we play from there..but even that..while not a real punishment at least puts bowser inside marth's range where the game becomes more even for a bit.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Klowne, I meant approaches, you didn't understand very well but frozen serpent went indepth and so did lin, I didn't see the point of this thread to begin with in the first place.

 

[mood4food77]

actually, bowser is one of the few characters who can punish missed moves...probably the best at it

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Anyone can punish well, they just have to know how.

 

[mood4food77]

but none have a broken move like bowser does out of the shield

pretty much one of the 2 things good about him (other than his ledge attack)

but anyways

ganon's fair is his main approach cause of it's reach, it's greater than (i think) than marth's fair and fsmash (marth's fsmash has crap range for his overall reach)

it also deals 17% damage in one hit, pretty freaking good, actually, that's the 2nd strongest fair in the game (ICs have the first), but it's faster than most fairs

also, if it's a useless move, than why do most ganon's abuse it

 

[Klowne]

Klowne, I meant approaches, you didn't understand very well but frozen serpent went indepth and so did lin, I didn't see the point of this thread to begin with in the first place.

I guess i still don't understand then. But yes, i agree that frozen serpent's post was a really good one, it might have just cured my confusion on the issue.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Mood4food, yes some do, their names are dk and link.

and no, its range is not, and you don't f-smash with marth by your statement because its utterly wrong.

he wasn't saying f-air was useless, just as a sole approach..which wasn't a bright idea to agrue so indepthly as its a sole approach.

 

[mood4food77]

topic says useless move

which statement about marth's fsmash is wrong, the fact it's short compared to his overall reach, it is

so many more fsmashes have a longer reach while his other moves are usually the first/second longest reaching of that move

dk and link don't have as good up b's as bowser's, and they aren't invincible during theirs also

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You said broken, I named them, I didn't say it was on the same level.

and mood..once again..you aren't making sense

 

[Emblem Lord]

People in this thread are on crack.

Marth leans in with his fsmash and takes a huge step forward for the fsmash.

Mood...stop doing drugs.

Ganodorf's fair is ****.

So what if you miss with a move? If the spacing is decent, buffer a roll or ganon's gerudo dragon.

**** that's a hot *** name. Just say it.

Gerudo Dragon. Too good.

Yeah Ganon's fair is awesome. I wanna know why Ganon's don't pressure with that thing. Like intentional hit shields with it and force a reaction and crap like that.

Fair's execution is quick. Awesome range and priority. Pressure with that **** Ganon players!!!

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Marth's f-smash has great reach, what is your problem? Are you blind?

Mood, remember all the last times you agrued with me? Remember how bloody wrong you are each time?

 

[brawlpro]

this theory=wrong...

 

[chaddd]

How many times must I inform people of this. Ganon has literally no offensive game in high level play. The only way to beat high level players with Ganon is to attempt to trick them into making an approach, moving back and destroying it while taking advantage of what combos you can come up with. Just like most characters are played at high level. Do you think Mew2King or PC Chris just randomly throw out offensive attacks? Their game is based on patience and a high level of thought.

Case and point: if you go around throwing shffl'd forward airs out at a good Fox or Captain Falcon, or any player with any sort of speed with their character, then you will be avoided and destroyed. If you wait for a Fox to rush towards you with the classic approach of short hopped neutral air, then jumping away and throwing a skull crusher is unstoppable. You can make them feel as though they have no way to approach you, furthering their fear of the forward air.

And it does a lot of damage. No move that does lots of damage sucks. Not even the Volcano Kick.

EDIT: Think of the forward air more as a defensive shield rather than a big club to swing at people.

 

[brawlpro]

well i'm gonna beleive chaddd cause he gotz a ganondorf worth watchin and callin great!!!

 

[Klowne]

How many times must I inform people of this. Ganon has literally no offensive game in high level play. The only way to beat high level players with Ganon is to attempt to trick them into making an approach, moving back and destroying it while taking advantage of what combos you can come up with. Just like most characters are played at high level. Do you think Mew2King or PC Chris just randomly throw out offensive attacks? Their game is based on patience and a high level of thought.

Case and point: if you go around throwing shffl'd forward airs out at a good Fox or Captain Falcon, or any player with any sort of speed with their character, then you will be avoided and destroyed. If you wait for a Fox to rush towards you with the classic approach of short hopped neutral air, then jumping away and throwing a skull crusher is unstoppable. You can make them feel as though they have no way to approach you, furthering their fear of the forward air.

And it does a lot of damage. No move that does lots of damage sucks. Not even the Volcano Kick.

EDIT: Think of the forward air more as a defensive shield rather than a big club to swing at people.

I'm glad you posted that chaddd, it's reassuring.

Also, Gerudo Dragon. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Pointman Rob]

In summation: fair = not useless.

/thread